Vicki Jo, whom I don't necessarily trust intellectually, but who is supposedly an expert, describes the INFP as the most judgmental type. When I heard that it annoyed me because I refused to believe it possible, but the prevalence of these threads brings that comment back to mind and makes me wonder why she came to that conclusion. I read a lot more criticisms of others than self in these thread.
The fact that she basically has an entire web site devoted to this kind of commentary just exposes her hypocrisy there. I'd be open to discussing this idea of being "judgmental" in another thread though. I often find Ji gets explained through Je eyes & then is gravely misunderstood. Pe exploration is often viewed as a judgment from Je types too, because it has action (such as my original post in here; not final judgments, but concepts to explore based on patterns I've detected). However, I know the misunderstanding runs both ways, and some criticisms of Ji are accurate. A thread on that would be much more productive because we'd actually discuss it though!
My only complaint against the INFP is against the specific individuals who make unreasonable criticisms of others. I realize they may feel like they are banging their head against a wall to have their inner world understood, but when expressing criticism, it is not the wall such a person is banging their head against - it is another person's head. That is why people say, Ouch. Sorry you are frustrated, but it's time to stop doing that. Go find an actual wall.
Concerning the criticism I've made, I would call it attempting to understand other people (not necessarily in this thread, but the individuals who inspired such criticisms) who are hitting their head against a wall, because they are the ones who suffer the most ill effects of those behaviors. They're messing their own lives up. What I see is a connection between these more serious issues and everyday issues in the typical INFJ - issues which are part of the very DEFINITION of the type.
I tried to find your comment again where you said that you thought listing a quote of criticisms would place distance and make the discussion more theoretical. The problem is that the list is not necessarily credible. It is just another person's impressions based also on the internet memes associated with INFJ. If one refuses the psychic demigod meme, there could also be reason to reject some of the negative memes. The list is problematic and not because it is negative, but because it actually describes some specific personality disorders. If someone has those traits they are not necessarily INFJ, they have one of the attachment disorders. The percentage of people with those disorders is higher than the percentage of INFJs in the world. Confirmation bias can cause people to label anyone with that disorder as an INFJ. I am brutally aware of my flaws, but have zero intention of sharing them here because I don't find the thread all that honest or about learning. That's not my impression of it, and of course I'm not saying that it isn't a sincere learning environment for some.
I listed my criticisms PAIRED with DIRECT quotes about the Ni ego from the very individuals who created and/or shaped this theory. If Jung is not credible to you in such a discussion, then who is? I see patterns of behavior IRL and see how these connect to the theory. A person can fit a general pattern without exhibiting the same behavior or in the same degree. I think PeaceBaby explains that well below. I see little acknowledgement of the actual quotes from Jung & Van Der Hoop on Ni in this thread though, which is interesting.
I don't think you want to accept my stated motive or see the purpose in my approach, so we will just spin our wheels. From the get-go, you questioned my sincerity, & you continue to do so, so there is very little I can say to you anymore.
I'm still trying to learn how to resolve conflict with Fi-doms I love, and so far just submitting and apologizing and trying to remain positive has been successful. There have also been two arguments in my life with a Fi person that I went ahead and let myself go, get angry and just say whatever without filter and that worked better than I expected. I'm trying something a little like that here, but with some reassurances because I know there is little or no social trust established.
I don't find that a resolution of conflict, because the source of the conflict likely still exists. You've just bought yourself time & smoothed ruffled feathers.
I find with IxFJs (much more so than ExFJs, interestingly), that I can feel like a bull in a china shop, because I prefer to just call out the elephant in the room so we can move on from it. Their way leads to "buying time", just putting off the issue or ignoring it, but it will not just "go away" permanently. In INFJs especially, this looks like covering the ears & eyes, blocking out that which is unpleasant so as to stay positive (about themselves, mainly). But their view gets narrower & narrower & narrower & farther from reality that way. I can only abide by such dishonesty for so long.
So I feel like a conflict cannot be resolved if you (in general, not YOU) won't acknowledge it exists to begin with, and I see avoidance of discussing personal contributions to such conflicts (ie. personality flaws) as a way of dodging responsibility and avoiding getting to the root of problems because it would involve change on your part. While I don't see all of the points I made about INFJ flaws in all INFJs or even most here, I do see common threads in "smaller" tendencies. If I was asking for any acknowledgment, it was, "Do you see this thread? DO you see where it can lead to?". I admit when people cannot or will not see themselves in the negatives of their type, then I suspect a dishonesty or arrogance of sorts. Just as when a person
only sees the negative, it goes past honesty & true humility into poor self-esteem & morbid self-pity (the more common Fi issue).
Let it be stated
again that I did not create this thread, but was responding to a request from an INFJ. The context continues to make me feel justified. I find the cries of "unfair" childish; perhaps you shouldn't have entered a thread with this title, then.
peacebaby said:
See, that's where it falls apart. That's not what the INFP's here are saying. They're saying what I said above ... can you recognize him in the spectrum, in the INFJ box? And, if you can recognize him, and simply say, "Ya, it happens" it would appear less defensive than dismissing the whole post as irrelevant or taking it personally. (And, saying that, I KNOW it's difficult when it feels you're being painted with these broad brush-strokes that inaccurately portray you as an individual.)
Yes, thank you. An individual of any type may fall apart spectacularly, but there certainly are themes in how the demise plays out. I think it's useful to acknowledge what tendencies in a type have the capacity to grow into such serious flaws as those I listed.
I think we're asking for Pe access though, and that's the breakdown. I continue to think this is a Pe/Pi conflict and NOT Fe/Fi. We're asking for things to be viewed outside the self, as a part of a pattern that constitutes reality, and we're getting "Se denial" in return. I don't mean denial of flaws in the list I made, but denial of seeing the connections I'm making, and how and why.
Standuble and Peacebaby- I will get back to responding, but for now I saw this and it seems to encapsulate exactly what bothers me about OA's list:
I've explained my intent and approach so many times now that it's silly to see it dismissed this way again, and it's also insulting to me as it basically says I'm a liar. Again, if someone cannot accept my sincerity and chooses to invalidate my whole argument because they don't
like the way it was presented, then the discussion will not develop. I don't believe at this point that any approach would have made a difference though.
I feel my post riled people up because there was
some unpleasant truth in it (I'm not saying it is a clear reflection of all INFJs). If it was utter nonsense with no foundation in reality, then I think it would've gotten a very different response. What I see latched onto is the part of it is that is most subjective - the delivery. The quotes from Jung are not noted...I was thinking the connection I made between them & my criticisms would be discussed, but that's a Pe approach, specifically Ne. Not to say I haven't seen a few try to do that in here, but it's mostly been a stubbornness to avoid seeing the points in the "correct" context. And there again I see Pe/Pi conflict - Pi puts it into the context which suits them (ie. Ni focuses on the "wrong" question), which looks like denial or avoidance to Pe.