this is one of those times where the "facts" are difficult for us to agree upon. in my own way of disambiguating type correlations, 3w4 is an enfj type and not an infj type. i see 3, 7, and 8 as the most extroverted in orientation. the most driven to do things in the world. while i see so/sx 4s and 9s that look more extroverted and rely less on sp slowness and self-sufficiency, there's still a big difference to me. i also think 90% of the e1 infjs are incorrect. i think 1w9 can be an infj or an intj type, but 1w2 is always an ej.
without common ground, and without clearly bounding the perceptions we share, it's difficult to talk about features of a type.
No, you're correct - I don't think a 3w4 is always an extrovert. I don't believe any Jungian type can be any enneagram type, but I don't find 3 at odds with INFJ (with 7 & 8 & 2, yes). The 3 is just looking to establish worth externally, which doesn't have to be Fe-dom to me, but usually is an extrovert or a J of some kind. It's most at odds with IxxPs, IMO. I see an INFJ e3 as someone who deceives themselves with their perspective shifts, and who establishes a valuable image in Fe terms, but mostly in their own mind. They pursue a vain fantasy, with no connection to the concrete reality. The focus is on the inner image of self, so it can be very at odds with their actual appearance to others. The extroverted 3 is much more aware of their outer image.
i can only sympathize here. i think that often times Pe types think things are self-evident that do not appear as self-evident to me and must rely on a ton of assumptions that are sometimes not recognized too. at the same time, i am trying to admit that i recognize that my Pe obliviousness is clearly my own biggest limitation. the thing is, i don't think there's anything that can really be done about it. i can either get wildly, uncontrollably depressed that i am fucking oblivious, or i can accept it and work from my strengths and try to get more comfortable with the extremely difficult to accept moment, meaning, sensation, etc of what it's like to be wrong and to truly face that when the world is so complicated and the scales of wrong are extremely complex. and i can also appreciate that my experience of the unseen, the kind of reflexivity that operates within my own kind of inner vision, is valuable and offers tools to change the world for the better as well. and is part of the larger system of checks and balances that we collectively are.
No one is saying "be someone else", but when there is repeatedly a collision with reality because mentally you don't want to deal with it, then you either change, adapt, grow, or you self-sabotage. Every type faces this; you integrate or you become less functional. What I see with the INFJs who inspired my criticism is weak Fe, but perhaps I am judging Fe from my Fi standards. I think, if something is not working with people, then doesn't good Fe adapt? Isn't it about viability? But I guess it's a Fi manner of thinking to value different individual needs enough to adapt so long as no larger moral issue is at stake. I just don't see the same problem with actual Fe-dom so much.... So in those INFJs, I see Fe as just supporting the Ni perspective, not balancing it. It's like when an INFP only sees possibilites which confirm an existing valuation (which distorted Si bolsters as well); Ne can't really help us move then. We're really resisting our auxiliary because it means redefining a value-concept. I don't know exactly how it works with INFJs, but when/how does Fe save the day? I see tert Ti as a tempting trap, but I'm of the opinion that the tert is positive mainly as a sort of playful, stress reliever. Otherwise, it just feeds the bias of the ego.
this seems like an e4 generalization issue. to be the ecologist, to aim for equanimity, without being as self-aware as we would like to in order to perform a function that is simply beyond us but still must be done, as imperfectly as we are able to. and e4s are made to experience the loss of all changes, the negative difference, that makes them critically oriented both in terms of reason-giving and in terms of aesthetic prejudice. balancing that is the mastery of the e4-->e1 integration. and we're probably, and this may not be how you see it, working with e4 and e1-->e4 (the people we both feel we are battling against at times, both outside of us and internally as well).
I don't disagree with this, but I'm not connecting it to the main topic. Is this why I have my harsh edge in my comments in here? Yes. But I don't think it invalidates my comments. Is there really no depersonalization with the INFJ when conflict solving where they don't want to adapt? That's precisely what I see as the tert Ti trap....
so i guess i feel like this is a negotiation about the negotiation that often happens with nfps. and it's not an inherent flaw to work with this different methodology, because this too needs to be negotiated.
it can be difficult for us to read you when you do prefer an informing style that is more embodied rather than a pointed answer to a pointed question. i'm consistently surprised that one of my best friends, an infp 4w5 so/sx, often sees ways of modifying behavior that would be enormously helpful to me but says nothing, or says something in a way that i do not see. i just want to be like, you're a good friend! you have not only rights but responsibilities to say something obviously helpful! be more directive, dammit! (probably one area i have an easier time with 9w1 infps than 4w5s). explain the reason! identify how to control the change, not just stay with all the consequences of these continual fuckups! sure i'll learn the lesson, but you already know it, so just share it! teach! sometimes it's worth it to bring to light a negative effect on a variety of people and on myself that will lead to me being hurt, my identity being bruised, etc, when it's for the greater good. i don't think the informing style is everything. it doesn't supply the ethics in and of itself. it is a way you have mastered being ethical, but not the only way. it too has its flaws, for it is best at seeing only at certain scales of activity. it protects the experiences of individuals in spaces over the spaces themselves. constraints are not evil just because you have not been able to experience their full process of emergence. this is the cultural knowledge that we share, that organizes us without our knowing, that binds us so that we can focus awareness in other ways. but infjs and Ni types focus on updating the cultural knowledge that seems circular and tautological and is harder to diagnose causally because we exist through it as much as it exists through us. focusing our attention on that makes us reflexive in some ways that are highly costly to us and others in other ways. but it doesn't just make us wrong. it makes us flawed and incomplete and dependent on others just like everyone else.
Of course there is a downside to informing (vagueness, for example), but it's a difficulty for an INFP to find the middle ground between informing, which allows someone to choose a solution which suits their individual nature (our preferred method), and just criticizing in an insensitive, inferior Te way. It seems like if someone cares, is awareness not enough to get the ball rolling? I tend to think the person doesn't care much then.
And with INFJs, you can't tell if suggestions fall on deaf ears or not. When you pull out some Fe standards, they seem to get mad that you're using their tricks. Then there's the "la la la la - I can't hear you!" response and/or playing victim ("why does everyone pick on me!"). At that point, I don't know if anything can be done on my or anyone else's part; the person has to decide if they want to move or stay stuck.
but regardless of this, we do go through phases when it feels like it's controlling me in ways that are not fair to the rules and understanding of my own worldview. when we feel judged, dismissed, as if our perspective as we experience it is less important than the way the other person renders the context and defines the situation.
I think for an INFP it comes down to the view of the facts not mattering so much as acknowledging what is significant. Whether it's blue or red doesn't matter - it had an impact on someone. How do we prevent it or deal with it? If you deny you had anything to do with it, but it's always following you around, then it just looks like stubborn delusion and/or a lack of caring about how you affect others. That's where I see an evasion of taking responsibility. That's where I might pull a Fe card & say, "it's standard to accomodate this feeling; it's not an unreasonable or unusual demand."
i think it's unfair because i just don't think you can do anything about it. Te (especially as an Si user) isn't something where you can get the categories first and then iterate to know the boundaries of the guesses that help you parse out the grammar of the statistical prediction system. you need repetitions. and you need attention to find ways of recognizing this new way of thinking, of incorporating this process that has been going on in the dark and shining a big fucking spotlight on it so that it can connect to your overall long-term decision-making system. they can only be taught in terms of allowing your dominant systems to recognize what is missing and look for them a little more closely, to start to build by staying with different kinds of awareness and cognitive processes that are unusual and hard to locate. i always forget where Ti is, and the huge storms of Ni iteration just kind of wash over everything and require clean-up, restoration, and rebuilding to find balance again. we're all like this, and this developmental process takes fucking forever (in lived time) and rarely reaches a full completion. to criticize your inferior is to criticize you for not being a perfectly enlightened person. especially when you don't seem to establish or recognize first and foremost that you appreciate the strengths of the other person and work your best to understand the value of that.
But I don't think awareness of where you lack has to mean full incorporation of your inferior processes. I think you can solve/lessen many issues with your preferred processes once you're aware of them, and you can also rely on the strengths & support of others for guidance. But that takes humility too. You can acknowledge you're not good with Pe (or whatever), but do you have the humility to accept input from someone who is? I mean, I've had to recognize the validity of Je as times; it doesn't mean I generally take a Je approach, but it helps me see when I'm not being effective & why. I can then seek a solution instead of hitting my head against a wall.
And sure, no one is perfect, and I'm not asking for that. You're creating something of a false dichotomy here. It's not all or nothing. Surely, you believe people can
improve? Individuals will always have a tendency for certain flaws, but that doesn't mean they can't minimize them.
I mean, if someone informs you of a problem, but they don't advise any solution, then can't you ask for it? I see this as improved Fe, to find an external "right method" to act with.
i am glad that i am able to say something that means more to you and that you recognize is an attempt to find common ground. but i wrote all the other stuff to do that as well, so if you don't think it's important, it's hard for me to feel that you are trying to understand what i am saying too. because i'm trying to show you both the bad and good side at the same time and then show that they're somewhat inseparable. that they can't just be corrected any more than we can just be perfect, but then can be improved through effort, strategy, and patience.
I wasn't totally devaluing the rest, just noting what I found to be most clarifying for me. I certainly agree with & only ask for the latter.
because what prevents us from being what you want is partly a limitation of type and partly a swing to the bad side of what we can be. falling down the levels of health. when you feel depressed, do you not lash out at others more? do you not forget how to give? or appreciation what you have been given? i feel like when we lose balance, we lose some degree of control over our behavior. and then the blindspots are more obvious and less integrated. we lose our well-being.
This is true, but I've come to the realization as an e4 that I (and others) have a lot more control over these bad moods, bad days, bad years, etc, and the behaviors they lead to than we like to admit. You don't have to give into it. You don't have to stay there if you don't want to. I didn't like this realization much. I always feel like I'm being asked to be a robot, to not feel anything, to deny the reality of sadness & misery in life - but then I accept that it's just not working for me to live by my moods. And I always have a large degree of control - it's just a matter of wanting to see that I do. The limitations lessen a lot when you define yourself less narrowly. Whenever I catch myself saying, "that's not who I am, so I can't do X", then I realize I am shooting myself in the foot. And I do that a lot - shoot myself in the foot, and then I limp around in life.
So I see INFJs shooting themselves in the foot because they're limiting the sphere they will concede to operate it. How/when/why do they ever decide to widen that sphere?
to me, this is the most helpful thing you have said to express what you need from us. i agree that this kind of awareness needs to be defended, practiced, and cultivated by everyone. and i know that inferior Pe can lead to a kind of ignorance related to the concrete effects of these things, especially as we identify with emotion, as we embody value through an external perspective rather than an internal one. our feelings are outside of us. they're not focused by an inner kind of awareness. this too is what i appreciate so much about the concentrated emotional intelligence of Fi.
i think the imbalance also comes from the instincts. so types favoring the group too much at the expense of the marginal experiences. sx types favoring their own self-aggrandizement and self-directed leadership over the wishes of others. and sp types denying that others have needs at all in order to stabilize their own situation.
Concerning the bolded, it's admittedly difficult for me to grasp this, and all I can wonder is how expression of feeling can be transferred so the INFJ doesn't merely feel weighted by someone else's feeling, but can see how it connects to the wider net of people interacting productively. Because I get the sense that this is when the temptation to depersonalize comes in, so as to simply remove the weight of the feeling by invalidating it. I try to couch it in "this is not just ME & MY feeling", but that doesn't always work. Having to reference someone/thing else as if my own feeling is not valid enough is an irritation for me as an INFP too; it further emphasizes that this person doesn't really value me.