OK so I should explain what I was getting at. It seems that I need to stay pretty frank and say all the stuff I usually don't beforehand, hoping it will clarify what my intentions and thoughts are.
I really didn't want to have to say this stuff - I don't like pointing out people's flaws in detail. I prefer not to gripe about everything that bothers me, because I think it's usually my business to get over it, and try and say something productive. I also feared I couldn't explain it without being blunt, which would upset people or ruffle feathers. That was the last thing I wanted to do, so I avoided it. And if I sound angry, it is at the principle, not at individuals or INFJs as a group. I hope now that this functions as a giant disclaimer: basically I don't want to start an argument and I don't want to upset anyone - ie. I may not seem terribly tactful, but I mean well, so please don't yell at me and/or start a flame war
If you want clarifications or examples, I'm perfectly happy to give them, but I'd prefer not to have to list every specific piece of evidence about what made me feel this way. I simply wanted to speak mostly in terms of general observations. This is another reason why I didn't want to say anything, because even the thought of having to justify why, in detail, made me feel
exhausted. I realise in light of what we've discussed, this may sound demanding, but it's just so much mental work for me to wade through the specific details in a step by step, Ti fashion - so I'm hoping you'll give me some leeway here.
Also, I'm hoping that the INFJs will listen to this and rethink some of the little things they do, instead of immediately going on the defensive. These are not accusations that must be denied or be subjugated to. You don't need to defend yourselves and prove you're decent people, because I can see that. I also realise that sometimes people make mistakes or upset others without meaning to. I also realise INFPs are guilty of many unpleasant things too. I'm just explaining how you sometimes come off and how it feels to be on the receiving end of that; it is my personal statement about how I feel about some of the things you say. I would really like it if you trusted my perception and accept that this area is a potential blind spot for you, and that perhaps it is something you may have missed. None of this is required in writing - I don't want you outline why you agree with me or anything horrid like that. I just need the benefit of the doubt and an open mind.
Not all the INFJs, did all these things, at all times. Some did it initially and then stopped. Some did it now and then. Some did a few of these things, but not others. Some did nothing significantly wrong at all. I merely speak in general terms because I want to avoid pointing fingers at individuals and because I'm talking about general behavioural patterns. Regardless, I do hope all the INFJs will listen to what I say and not simply assume that they're "one of the good ones". I don't want you to feel guilty; I just want you to understand.
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Basically, a lot of what OA has outlined in her list, the INFJs have done in this thread.
It might not be in big, bold, overt ways, and it might not have deeply upset anyone, but it was going on. I wasn't consciously thinking about the list (ie. I absolutely wasn't watching you, waiting for you to trip up, or anything), but as time went on and those little meta issues were annoying me, I started to notice the trends and how they matched. I'm hoping the NFPs might back me up here, and that I'm not the only one who felt this way.
So here are some of the things that bothered me:
1.The assumption of correct perception.
Few things really irritate me more than a person that assumes they're right. I don't need other people to agree with me; I just need them to admit the possibility that they are fallible. You have to watch how you word things and the little cues you give out. To other people, when you state your opinion too decisively, it sounds like you believe it is a undeniable fact (eg. "she did this"). It implies that the other person is plainly wrong; and worse than that, it often implies that others are stupid for not seeing how you are right. This appears arrogant and belittling, and really gets people's backs up - I imagine it starts and perpetuates a lot of arguments.
2. Refusal to properly accept other possible reading(s) of a situation/issue.
Again, it is not necessary to agree with me; it is however, very important in situations where we can only infer the truth, that you accept the possibility that there may be other explanations. There has been a lot of resistance to even allowing the chance that [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] meant something other that what the immediate interpretation was. But surely the very fact that other people disagree, is evidence that other opinions are at least
possible - but instead you dismiss their views as inaccurate (see 1.) and try to set them straight. Continuing to argue your perspective as if it is the only valid one when others offer alternatives, makes you seem like you're sticking your fingers in your ears and not listening to anything that doesn't mesh with your view. This appears arrogant, unreasonable and stubbornly contrary.
3. Using esoteric insights as self-confirming evidence
I'm all for Ni and the fantastic insights it provides, but we all have to admit that it isn't always easy to explain why each thing comes to you. For this reason, you must be careful in stating your insights in a way that they don't sound like objective fact. Until you can explain the reasoning behind it in a way people can understand,
others will only see it as an opinion - a possible truth. This is not to say that you need to prove every feeling you get about something - I think people should listen to what you have to say and consider it regardless. Just don't pass it off as a fact that everyone can/should agree upon.
4. BS-ing Fi+Ne insights
There can be assumption if Ni+Fe doesn't pick it up, it doesn't exist. There are times when NFPs share insights and it is effectively dismissed as imaginary nonsense, or that they're just projecting. I sometimes get the sense that there's a belief that NFPs are just messy, emotional beings, who don't know better. This is not done overtly, but there can be some scoffing involved. This is arrogant and dismissive.
5. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater
Something I mentioned earlier, it's about the need to get the specifics perfectly right, so much so that if a slight error is detected an entire series of points are dismissed. It's like we're spit-balling ideas and someone starts angrily underlining the errors in red pen, and then complains there's too much red pen to read what we're saying. It appears pedantic, deliberately contrary and dismissive. It also seems to happen more when you don't like what the other person has to say. Sometimes it seems you want to find flaws so you don't have to go along with an inconvenient truth.
6. Leaping to conclusions and expecting others to leap with you
It's hard to discuss a matter with INFJs because they've already made so many assumptions. It feels like I'm forced into discussing your conclusions, when I never got the chance to address your premises. You expect me to not only assume your premises are correct (see 1.), but you want me to assume
the premises of your premises are correct, without any proof - and then you quickly move the discussion on, denying me the right to question them. It leaves me constantly scrambling to keep up, while attempting to get my point across and forces me to drop issues that I wanted to address. Example: "a) you're a bully; b) I'm suffering because of your bullying; therefore in conclusion, c) you should apologise." And I think, what! hang on, where was a) proven so absolutely? A lot of this discussion has effectively been about the validity of c) when the NFPs are trying to discuss the issue they have with a). Every time we try to bring up a), INFJs keep forcing the discussion back to c) and complaining that we are arguing that you don't deserve an apology. You're so totally focussed on how a) and b) lead to c), that every time we question the premises, all you hear is us questioning the conclusion. The NFPs then look like terrible people who defend bullies and don't believe in apologies. This is upsetting to us and we go on to explain why this isn't so - meanwhile a) is never properly addressed.
7. Trying to have your cake and eat it too
OA called this playing the tyrant/victim. It's where you appear to claim both the position of victim - the innocent party, holding the moral high ground, deserving of sympathy - but then use this as a weapon to attack others with. This is very frustrating to deal with, mostly because it's leaves others feeling totally cornered by your logic (see 6). You'll make yourself the good guy in the story and think that gives you the right to guilt trip others or say some harsh stuff if you believe it's necessary. This appears to us as a play for dominance: both moral and social. You get to have it both ways, while we're totally hung out to dry.
8. Problems are caused by other people
Now I don't necessarily think you genuinely believe other people are always the problem. Sometimes it's the case, other times it's simply down to poor word choice. For example: "You failed to understand me" rather than "I don't think I explained myself well", or "You are being hurtful" rather than "I felt hurt by what you said". Everything is framed in terms of how the other person behaves, which implies that they are the source of the problem and that you exist in a presumed state of moral neutrality and/or perfection. It is as if it is the other person's duty to understand you and keep you happy. If this happened now and then it wouldn't be a problem but if it happens repeatedly, and particularly in conjunction with points 1. and 2. , all this together can start to sound like a symphony of arrogance, self-righteousness, and finger pointing.
9. Circular reasoning as a defence mechanism
This can happen to anyone but it seems that a lot of arguments with INFJs have a higher tendency to go round and round in circles. This is comes down to points 1. 2. 3. and 6 working in tandem. The assumption you are correct is so hard to break because if it's challenged you often will continue going back to self-confirming evidence. You'll keep arguing in circles before you'll back down in the smallest way and say "OK, fair point". What it looks like is someone clasping at straws, stubbornly refusing to consider other possibilities, because they can't bear to even give an inch to the other person. To use Z buck's analogy of the changing room: you grabbed a size 8 skirt to try on and when it didn't fit, you still insisted it did. The NFPs say it doesn't seem to fit and suggest a 10, but you keep saying how you're always a size 8 so it has to fit. To us, refusing to take the 10 seems like you're in total denial - that you're just sticking to your guns because you don't want to be wrong.