[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Extraverted Sensing and Introverted Sensing - Se vs Si

[Littlelostnf]

I'm having such a problem understanding this (go figure -- as the whole issue of Sensing is like speaking Swahili at me). Sensing is supposed to be my tertiary function, but it is by far the weakest leg holding up my table. Introverted Thinking is fourth process, but is stronger than my tertiary. I have no idea why that would be. And why would Sensing be a tertiary function when I know so many NFJs who GRAPPLE with the physical world?

I'll highlight what I relate to below:

*Se -- Experiencing and noticing the physical world, scanning for visible reactions and relevant data.

Being attracted to and/or distracted by changing external events. Adapting and changing your mind according to the situation. Focusing on facts. Asking lots of questions to get enough information to see the pattern. Going ahead and responding to raw data. Physical self-expression.

*Si -- (my deceiving shadow process) -- Recalling past experiences, remembering detailed data and what it is linked to.

Being heavily influenced by prior experiences. Distrusting new information that doesn't match. Assuming an understanding of a situation because it resembles a prior one. Focusing on facts and stored data. Giving lots of specific, sequential details about something. Rating and making comparison.


I don't seem to notice the world unless it's intruding on me or I'm actively paying attention. Being raised in violence and alcoholism surrounded by a terrible neighborhood has made me overly watchful, but it hasn't bolstered my ability to use what little I have of a Sensing function whatsoever. You'd think it would have. I'm starting to wonder (worry) that I have no connection to my Sensing side at all. My father is this way and he struggles.

Physical self-expression: I dress boldly, but I don't do well with, say, the romantic end of things because the minute I'm made aware of myself, I become too aware and I shut down. My sister is always asking me common sense questions or saying things like "When did you brush your hair?... yesterday?! Brush your hair!" or "Your pants have a hole in them. It's time for new ones" or "You're going to freeze. Put on a coat." Did I notice the hole in my pants? Probably not. Or if I did, I didn't think about it again. I don't notice the lawn needs to be mowed. Or the bills need to be paid. I have to concentrate really hard to remember that stuff, and to approach the physical realm as something other than scary or devouring or flabbergasting.

When a man/woman gives me a compliment, or tells me they think I'm beautiful, I turn into a block. I feel like I have no business drawing such a comment because I feel that divorced from the physical. You know, like an impostor. Not to say I'm awkward. I just NEVER get past being mystified when people notice me or when I'm magically NOT invisible.

My question is: Am I working off of my shadow more than I thought? can anyone PLEASE explain the Se and show me where it exerts any force on me at all?

According to the cog processing test and just my general observations about myself, I am using my Se in a fairly good way. Unlike you I am often quite aware of and experiencing and noticing the physical world, I am very much attracted to and distracted by changing external evens and I respond very quickly to those changes. I don't ness ask lots of questions to get information...I ask questions to clarify the information I've taken in.

As far as physical self-expression goes I also do this...example...so many examples of this.

I wish I had time to explain..when I come home from work I will...leaving early today to get some paperwork off my desk so I can actually teach today.

 

[Domino]

Thanks, babe. Take your time.

 

[Littlelostnf]

Thanks, babe. Take your time.

Ok so I woke myself up at 4:30 this morning and I can’t go back to sleep. I might as well answer this question that I promised I would answer almost 10 days ago. (GOOD GRIEF) Hmmm extraverted sensing. It’s defined over at cognitiveprocess.com as:

Extraverted Sensing occurs when we become aware of what is in the physical world in rich detail. We may be drawn to act on what we experience to get an immediate result. We notice relevant facts and occurrences in a sea of data and experiences, learning all the facts we can about the immediate context or area of focus and what goes on in that context. An active seeking of more and more input to get the whole picture may occur until all sources of input have been exhausted or something else captures our attention. Extraverted Sensing is operating when we freely follow exciting physical impulses or instincts as they come up and enjoy the thrill of action in the present moment. A oneness with the physical world and a total absorption may exist as we move, touch, and sense what is around us. The process involves instantly reading cues to see how far we can go in a situation and still get the impact we want or respond to the situation with presence

A good example of this for me would be when I’m snowboarding. I look around me when I’m at the top of the mountain and the way I board is in response to the physical world around me. Responding quickly to the changes in the conditions, reacting to the actual day be it bright and sunny or if it’s snowing, windy, whatever. I also board with music and for me it’s almost always like being in my own private music video or boarding movie scene. Also my response to music or being around people dancing. The way I cook is a really good example of Se also. If I want a dish to come out the same as the last time I did it I have to work really hard because I cook according to where I am and what’s going on at the time. (I was going to say how I feel..so maybe this is Si..nah it’s really more about my surroundings when I’m cooking)

Wow I just got super tired again..back to bed. If you want more examples Pink I’ll think of some when I wake up (in another 10 days)

 

[Athenian200]

I suppose I just feel rather demoralized about not being more "physical" or "manifest" because that seems to be the currency of the world. I'm not to the point of defenestrating myself or anything, just frustrated. When anything eludes me, it turns into a bit of a earwig, drives me nuts. Must be my J grabbing on and vivisecting the hell out a personal enigma.

You sound a bit stressed... you're getting very articulate. Anyway, are you sure you're an ENFJ? I've heard some INFJ's seem very extraverted, although I'm definitely not one of them. I must admit, it seems strange to me that you would be able to be out and around people so much, and still have trouble focusing on the physical environment. That's one of the reasons I'm too afraid to be out socializing, because I'm worried random things might happen too fast that I can't deal with. I'm afraid I would look so awkward if something happened, and I stood there too long or moved sluggishly or the wrong way at first in response, perhaps having to ask what was even going on when most people would just "get it." Also, it freaks me out that people move around so fast and are so loud. If it weren't for that, I could be around people more.

Just remember that you have strengths related to understanding ideas that a lot of people don't have. You don't have to be like everyone else in order to be valuable. Also, I tend to feel invisible a lot as well, although in my case, I usually am. Sometimes I want to say something to someone, and I feel like I'm saying it, but they're not hearing it. It's almost like that movie where the ghost had to "focus" themselves into existence in order to affect the physical world. I also seem to be able to walk past large numbers of people without being noticed... it seems like only very perceptive people tend to notice me.

 

[Domino]

You sound a bit stressed...

You don't know how right you are. I've come to understand that the levels of stress I live with are unacceptable, by most peoples' standards as well as mine, and I have yet to figure out how to find and hit the OFF switch. It's no good for me this way though. You're correct.

you're getting very articulate. Anyway, are you sure you're an ENFJ? I've heard some INFJ's seem very extraverted, although I'm definitely not one of them.

This has been a big question lately. I know my father, without a doubt, is an INFJ, but he's very introverted so he's not hard to type. My uncle, his brother, is an ENTJ. I seem to fall between them - forceful, like my uncle, but incredibly sensitive like my father. I'm an eerie match for my dad sometimes in many tangible and intangible aspects.

My ENFP twin, who is easily more extroverted than me, and I have come to the decision that I must be absolutely borderline. I throw in with E because that's more the way I am when not under pressure, but I'm still entirely too receding to be a hard E. For lack of a better term, I seem to be an E by default, like my brain chose it over I for no apparent reason and without strong conviction about its choice.

I have another question: Do you think it's possible for identical twins, who usually have just one letter difference at most, could be an ENFP-INFJ pair? I've always seen us as ENFP-eNFJ, but I could be losing the forest for the trees here.

I must admit, it seems strange to me that you would be able to be out and around people so much, and still have trouble focusing on the physical environment.

I agree. It is a little weird. I would think I was totally broken in the head if I didn't mimic my father so much in this aspect. If I didn't have him as an example, I'd be compelled to think there was something the matter with me.

That's one of the reasons I'm too afraid to be out socializing, because I'm worried random things might happen too fast that I can't deal with. I'm afraid I would look so awkward if something happened, and I stood there too long or moved sluggishly or the wrong way at first in response, perhaps having to ask what was even going on when most people would just "get it." Also, it freaks me out that people move around so fast and are so loud. If it weren't for that, I could be around people more.

This sounds very much like the description of a true Introvert. I can't see myself in there, though I do nurse some strong urges to pull back and to avoid crowds. This borderline thing is making me kind of nuts. *laughs*

Just remember that you have strengths related to understanding ideas that a lot of people don't have. You don't have to be like everyone else in order to be valuable. Also, I tend to feel invisible a lot as well, although in my case, I usually am. Sometimes I want to say something to someone, and I feel like I'm saying it, but they're not hearing it. It's almost like that movie where the ghost had to "focus" themselves into existence in order to affect the physical world. I also seem to be able to walk past large numbers of people without being noticed... it seems like only very perceptive people tend to notice me.

Being invisible. Hmm. An N affliction it seems, and more concentrated on the I's. That's been an affliction of mine too - in my case, getting no attention when I need it, or getting heaps of BAD attention which I absolutely do NOT NEED. I spent days at a time feeling either transparent and voiceless or painted up like a target.

You know, Athenian, when you tested your aura and it came out Crystal - do you think there could be a correlation there? I'm very curious now.

 

[quietgirl]

This has been a big question lately. I know my father, without a doubt, is an INFJ, but he's very introverted so he's not hard to type. My uncle, his brother, is an ENTJ. I seem to fall between them - forceful, like my uncle, but incredibly sensitive like my father. I'm an eerie match for my dad sometimes in many tangible and intangible aspects.

My ENFP twin, who is easily more extroverted than me, and I have come to the decision that I must be absolutely borderline. I throw in with E because that's more the way I am when not under pressure, but I'm still entirely too receding to be a hard E. For lack of a better term, I seem to be an E by default, like my brain chose it over I for no apparent reason and without strong conviction about its choice.

This sounds very much like the description of a true Introvert. I can't see myself in there, though I do nurse some strong urges to pull back and to avoid crowds. This borderline thing is making me kind of nuts. *laughs*

If it helps any...

I'm an introvert who honestly enjoys being around people. I think they are fascinating and can hold my own in most conversations. I enjoy going out with friends and my ENFP best friend & I have had many many fun, wild sort of nights. I'm also super direct and tend to say what's on my mind. I've been called opinionated by more than one person! I do attribute a lot of the socialization to hanging out with my ENFP best friend, especially the years we were roommates - but I honestly don't mind it. Hell, I met my boyfriend at a bar! Probably not a typical introvert move. I also am constantly striving for a connection with people, so plenty of friends have been surprised to find out that I am introverted (and are also confused when I need my recharge time).

How do I know I'm a true introvert?

I am absolutely EXHAUSTED after periods of socialization. I tend to need plenty of recharge time before and afterwards. People DO NOT energize me, though I don't have much of a problem interacting with them. I am energized by being alone. I also think about what I say before saying it, for the most part (though if I'm stressed, I'll sometimes blurt stuff out). I'm also not a fan of crowds and loathe attention being brought to myself. I prefer one on one conversations when I'm out & about instead of talking to group of people. In fact, I have a lot of trouble addressing multiple people at once. If I am not prodded to be social or trying to connect with someone, I do tend to stay on the quiet side - simply because I have nothing to say and I have no problem with not talking. I don't talk just to talk or fill silence. I talk when I have something to say.

There's a stereotype that introverts dislike people and spend all of their time alone & I'm totally not that sort of introvert. However, I don't have a doubt in my mind that I have preferences for introversion.

 

[lazyhappy]

I'm having such a problem understanding this (go figure -- as the whole issue of Sensing is like speaking Swahili at me). Sensing is supposed to be my tertiary function, but it is by far the weakest leg holding up my table. Introverted Thinking is fourth process, but is stronger than my tertiary

maybe your more I then you thought... INFJ's functions are Ni-Fe-Ti-Se

and about your Si dilemma, i don't know... maybe your more p then you thought- enfp's 4th function is Si... but then you would have to be Te...
you would have all Fe, Si and Ti if you were a ENTP:
Dominant: Extraverted Intuition
Auxiliary: Introverted Thinking
Tertiary: Extraverted Feeling
Inferior: Introverted Sensing

it's alot different then a enfj though...
i dont know..

damn... the mbti theory is so confusing and so aggrivating at times, thier are so many holes in it, it's annoying

 

[Athenian200]

You don't know how right you are. I've come to understand that the levels of stress I live with are unacceptable, by most peoples' standards as well as mine, and I have yet to figure out how to find and hit the OFF switch. It's no good for me this way though. You're correct.

Do you feel like you're constantly living up to other people's standards/expectations rather than doing what you want to do? Just curious.

My ENFP twin, who is easily more extroverted than me, and I have come to the decision that I must be absolutely borderline. I throw in with E because that's more the way I am when not under pressure, but I'm still entirely too receding to be a hard E. For lack of a better term, I seem to be an E by default, like my brain chose it over I for no apparent reason and without strong conviction about its choice.

Actually, I act fairly "E" when I'm not under pressure either. It's just that in my case, I can't get away from pressure and I've had little opportunity to have social experience, so I feel very "I." I can converse for hours with a small group of people I feel comfortable with, and still be sad when they leave. I've also spent hours talking on the phone. The problem for me is being outside, being around crowds. I've always thought of "E's" as people who could handle crowds and feel energized. I can deal with crowds if I have to, but I look a little awkward, feel drained, and usually want to leave after a few hours.

I have another question: Do you think it's possible for identical twins, who usually have just one letter difference at most, could be an ENFP-INFJ pair? I've always seen us as ENFP-eNFJ, but I could be losing the forest for the trees here.

Of course... it would make you one another's "shadows" according to one theory. You would have all the functions in the same order, but in the opposite direction. Like this:

Ni Fe Ti Se

Ne Fi Te Si

This sounds very much like the description of a true Introvert. I can't see myself in there, though I do nurse some strong urges to pull back and to avoid crowds. This borderline thing is making me kind of nuts. *laughs*

That's an Introvert. Someone who wants to avoid crowds, not necessarily someone who does avoid them. I could deal with them almost all the time if I had to, I would just feel like rushed, irritable, and generally crappy all the time inside even if I were acting okay. I just figure it's not worth it when I can talk to people more meaningfully online or on the phone anyway with less hassle. And of course it certainly doesn't mean I never want to socialize at all as much as it means I don't want to do it frequently... if I had friends who wanted to go anywhere with me and I didn't have a particular situational stress source that really inhibits me, I'd probably go places between twice a week, and once every two weeks, depending on my mood/energy.

You know, Athenian, when you tested your aura and it came out Crystal - do you think there could be a correlation there? I'm very curious now.

There could be... but I'm not sure an online test is accurate at reading auras, or if auras themselves are accurate. I don't know what the meaning of it would be, though.

 

[Littlelostnf]

The problem for me is being outside, being around crowds. I've always thought of "E's" as people who could handle crowds and feel energized. I can deal with crowds if I have to, but I look a little awkward, feel drained, and usually want to leave after a few hours.

I'm an ENFJ and I very much feel drained after dealing with crowds. I live near the city and I DREAD going in at Xmas time. Were some people thrive off the energy the HORDES of people give off, it simply overwhelms me. I have a vistor coming today from overseas and we'll be making multiple trips into the city. I'm going to be exhausted mentally.

That's an Introvert. Someone who wants to avoid crowds, not necessarily someone who does avoid them. I could deal with them almost all the time if I had to, I would just feel like rushed, irritable, and generally crappy all the time inside even if I were acting okay. I just figure it's not worth it when I can talk to people more meaningfully online or on the phone anyway with less hassle. And of course it certainly doesn't mean I never want to socialize at all as much as it means I don't want to do it frequently... if I had friends who wanted to go anywhere with me and I didn't have a particular situational stress source that really inhibits me, I'd probably go places between twice a week, and once every two weeks, depending on my mood/energy.

I HATE the phone I hate texting the only thing I can seem to do for hours is im and even that has to be a really interesting convo to keep me going. I get in social moods where I want to be doing things and then there are weeks when all I want is me my couch and a good book or occasionally a movie.

I think I've said this WAY the heck to many times but people seem to think that the Fe part of an ENFJ means they are social and out there and wanting to be with people all the time. Not true. I'd rather observe people than actually socialize with them. I can. I'm rather good at it. People want me at their parties because I can and do push myself out there and I'm generally either helping out or helping entertain the other guests but if they'd let me alone I'd be more than happy and happier to just sit back and observe. I enjoy making people happy and making them laugh but I'd rather make them think. I think Kiersey had it right when he said that while and ESFJ is a social hostest and ENFJ is more concerned with the growth aspect of a person.

 

[Athenian200]

I'm an ENFJ and I very much feel drained after dealing with crowds. I live near the city and I DREAD going in at Xmas time. Were some people thrive off the energy the HORDES of people give off, it simply overwhelms me. I have a vistor coming today from overseas and we'll be making multiple trips into the city. I'm going to be exhausted mentally.

That's not my understanding of Extraversion. What is your reason for thinking you are an Extravert? It's not that I don't believe you, I just really don't understand it. I've always assumed "E" meant less easily stimulated by noise/movement and thus able to handle more interaction/activity.

I HATE the phone I hate texting the only thing I can seem to do for hours is im and even that has to be a really interesting convo to keep me going. I get in social moods where I want to be doing things and then there are weeks when all I want is me my couch and a good book or occasionally a movie.

I don't like texting either (partially because of the inconvenient input method and partially because I can't do it), but I'm comfortable with talking on the phone (my home phone, I don't own one of those cellular telephone things) whenever it rings, and I often leave my computer on with the speakers up so I can get IM's while I'm sleeping if I think someone might contact me... I don't want anyone I know online to feel neglected.

I think I've said this WAY the heck to many times but people seem to think that the Fe part of an ENFJ means they are social and out there and wanting to be with people all the time. Not true. I'd rather observe people than actually socialize with them. I can. I'm rather good at it. People want me at their parties because I can and do push myself out there and I'm generally either helping out or helping entertain the other guests but if they'd let me alone I'd be more than happy and happier to just sit back and observe. I enjoy making people happy and making them laugh but I'd rather make them think. I think Kiersey had it right when he said that while and ESFJ is a social hostest and ENFJ is more concerned with the growth aspect of a person.

It's not the Fe that makes people think that. It's the Exxx part. The idea is that generally, Extraverts are all those really cool, social people who have tans, go to all the loud parties, and travel frequently. Introverts are usually the paler ones who like to sit at home and read/daydream in their spare time, and maybe go somewhere with a friend occasionally because they were expected to. Obviously most people fall between those extremes, but you usually have a preference for one or the other to some degree... enough that you notice it.

 

[Littlelostnf]

That's not my understanding of Extraversion. What is your reason for thinking you are an Extravert? It's not that I don't believe you, I just really don't understand it. I've always assumed "E" meant less easily stimulated by noise/movement and thus able to handle more interaction/activity.

See but that's just it. Extraversion in my case is because I have extraverted feeling. That's my primary extraverted function. I think perhaps the secondary of Ni and because mine is very very strong that may be what is overwhelming. I also have pretty good use of my Se so all that together makes for me being overwhelmed when in the presence of lots of people. I'm receiving so much input it's tiring.

I don't like texting either (partially because of the inconvenient input method and partially because I can't do it), but I'm comfortable with talking on the phone (my home phone, I don't own one of those cellular telephone things) whenever it rings, and I often leave my computer on with the speakers up so I can get IM's while I'm sleeping if I think someone might contact me... I don't want anyone I know online to feel neglected.

Hahaha I used to do that...leave my speakers up. People just thought I was up all the time. I might not answer the phone but I will check the im.

It's not the Fe that makes people think that. It's the Exxx part. The idea is that generally, Extraverts are all those really cool, social people who have tans, go to all the loud parties, and travel frequently. Introverts are usually the paler ones who like to sit at home and read/daydream in their spare time, and maybe go somewhere with a friend occasionally because they were expected to. Obviously most people fall between those extremes, but you usually have a preference for one or the other to some degree... enough that you notice it.

Well I am social and I'm super cool but I prefer to sit at home and read/daydream/ occasionally go with a friend somewhere..but because I want to not because I'm expected to. I'm def an E but perhaps a bit balanced with my E/I

 

[Athenian200]

See but that's just it. Extraversion in my case is because I have extraverted feeling. That's my primary extraverted function. I think perhaps the secondary of Ni and because mine is very very strong that may be what is overwhelming. I also have pretty good use of my Se so all that together makes for me being overwhelmed when in the presence of lots of people. I'm receiving so much input it's tiring.

Most of this sounds familiar, actually. But you see, Fe is actually my extraverted function as well. It's just that Ni is stronger internally. Normally, people in public see the Fe, though, because Ni isn't as visible being introverted (but they may see the effects of it being weaker than in an ENFJ). Are you positive you use Fe more than Ni?

Hahaha I used to do that...leave my speakers up. People just thought I was up all the time. I might not answer the phone but I will check the im.

That's interesting. It's nice to know we have something in common.

Well I am social and I'm super cool but I prefer to sit at home and read/daydream/ occasionally go with a friend somewhere..but because I want to not because I'm expected to. I'm def an E but perhaps a bit balanced with my E/I

Well, if you're really social/cool, then I guess I can't argue with that... but why do you sit at home and read/daydream often if you prefer to be around people?

 

[proteanmix]

I think I've said this WAY the heck to many times but people seem to think that the Fe part of an ENFJ means they are social and out there and wanting to be with people all the time. Not true. I'd rather observe people than actually socialize with them. I can. I'm rather good at it. People want me at their parties because I can and do push myself out there and I'm generally either helping out or helping entertain the other guests but if they'd let me alone I'd be more than happy and happier to just sit back and observe. I enjoy making people happy and making them laugh but I'd rather make them think. I think Kiersey had it right when he said that while and ESFJ is a social hostest and ENFJ is more concerned with the growth aspect of a person.

I agree, my Fe tends to be more observant than interactive, but I do thrive on the interaction. For example, my INFJ friends absolutely loathe the subway and come to work pissed off at insignificant stuff that happens during the morning rush hour that I'm completely unbothered by. Based on what my INFJ friends say and the INFJs here on the forum I agree that their Fe feels compulsive/mandatory while I feel I can turn mine off and on at whim. I feel comfortable (maybe too comfortable) using Fe to disconnect from people as much as connect. It's pretty simple: just don't do all the things that you're "supposed" to do. I don't worry about it getting stuck on off because I know I can flip it back on when I want to.

Maybe I'm at the stage of development that I'm enjoying my Se and I'm not too terribly worried about the consequences. I work with a few ESFPs and their Se isn't the stereotypical party animal Se, it's the kind of Se that's amazingly perceptive to the tones of the environment. The are very attuned to small gestures and changes in body language by others and react accordingly. It genuinely looks predictive in the way Ni looks but they're registering it by other means. This is the type of Se I seek to emulate and become better at. I'm also noticing how ESFPs use their Te and while I'm working on a way to describe it, I'm just in awe of them. Thank goodness I've gotten past the stereotypical markers of type because I never would've thought these women were ESFPs. To be quite honest they connect the dots faster than I do because I'm not noticing what they notice as fast as they notice. They don't seem do much speculating on why they person does what they've noticed them doing (that's usually where I start), but they sure as hell notice the behavior faster than me.

 

[Domino]

Extraverted Sensing... occurs when we become aware of what is in the physical world in rich detail. We may be drawn to act on what we experience to get an immediate result. We notice relevant facts and occurrences in a sea of data and experiences, learning all the facts we can about the immediate context or area of focus and what goes on in that context. An active seeking of more and more input to get the whole picture may occur until all sources of input have been exhausted or something else captures our attention. Extraverted Sensing is operating when we freely follow exciting physical impulses or instincts as they come up and enjoy the thrill of action in the present moment.

I relate and don't to this. I *will* act as a sponge for stimulus, but I tend to get enervated by it to a certain extent, feel it so intensely I *must* disengage or suffer damage. I don't ever seem to enjoy the present moment as I'm always aware of only the NEXT moment coming up. I find stimulus, particular that which speaks most to me, can be both electrifying and dangerous to me, like an unprotected circuit waiting for a power spike to blow the fuses out of the wall. I do best when I can observe the stimulus remotely and take it away with me, then dissect it on the table until I've pulled all meaning from it and made it fully real. I'll see how it fits me/doesn't fit me and tailor it to me.

A oneness with the physical world and a total absorption may exist as we move, touch, and sense what is around us. The process involves instantly reading cues to see how far we can go in a situation and still get the impact we want or respond to the situation with presence.

Again I both relate and don't. [Great definition, by the way, LLNF, thanks for sharing it with me...] I do push into a situation to see how far down the rabbit hole goes, but I also recoil from existing fully in the present moment.

A good example of this for me would be when I’m snowboarding. I look around me when I’m at the top of the mountain and the way I board is in response to the physical world around me. Responding quickly to the changes in the conditions, reacting to the actual day be it bright and sunny or if it’s snowing, windy, whatever. I also board with music and for me it’s almost always like being in my own private music video or boarding movie scene. Also my response to music or being around people dancing. The way I cook is a really good example of Se also. If I want a dish to come out the same as the last time I did it I have to work really hard because I cook according to where I am and what’s going on at the time. (I was going to say how I feel..so maybe this is Si..nah it’s really more about my surroundings when I’m cooking)

It sounds like you feel about snowboarding like I did about horseback riding.

If it helps any...

I'm an introvert who honestly enjoys being around people. I think they are fascinating and can hold my own in most conversations. I enjoy going out with friends and my ENFP best friend & I have had many many fun, wild sort of nights. I'm also super direct and tend to say what's on my mind. I've been called opinionated by more than one person! I do attribute a lot of the socialization to hanging out with my ENFP best friend, especially the years we were roommates - but I honestly don't mind it. Hell, I met my boyfriend at a bar! Probably not a typical introvert move. I also am constantly striving for a connection with people, so plenty of friends have been surprised to find out that I am introverted (and are also confused when I need my recharge time).

Very interesting! I relate to that description!

How do I know I'm a true introvert?

I am absolutely EXHAUSTED after periods of socialization. I tend to need plenty of recharge time before and afterwards. People DO NOT energize me, though I don't have much of a problem interacting with them. I am energized by being alone. I also think about what I say before saying it, for the most part (though if I'm stressed, I'll sometimes blurt stuff out). I'm also not a fan of crowds and loathe attention being brought to myself. I prefer one on one conversations when I'm out & about instead of talking to group of people. In fact, I have a lot of trouble addressing multiple people at once. If I am not prodded to be social or trying to connect with someone, I do tend to stay on the quiet side - simply because I have nothing to say and I have no problem with not talking. I don't talk just to talk or fill silence. I talk when I have something to say.

I tend to stay to the outside of the circle until the circle directly asks to draw me in. Otherwise, I prefer to involve myself in the group dynamic and even get a little freaked out when I'm put on the spot. I draw energy from human interaction and could never ever live in the country, but I also seem to have a cut-off point MUCH sooner than most Es I know, including my sister who take a level of social interaction without becoming crabby that I can't.

There's a stereotype that introverts dislike people and spend all of their time alone & I'm totally not that sort of introvert. However, I don't have a doubt in my mind that I have preferences for introversion.

Hmm. So maybe it's more an NFJ thing than an I/E thing? I have a male ENFJ friend who likes to have his own space, but he HATES being alone. I don't mind it. But that's with the understanding that when my alone-time is over, I can find "my people".

maybe your more I then you thought... INFJ's functions are Ni-Fe-Ti-Se

That IS interesting!! Thanks for putting that thought out there... I never considered that angle.

Do you feel like you're constantly living up to other people's standards/expectations rather than doing what you want to do? Just curious.

I used to. Being sick has pretty much ripped that element out of me. But I would probably STILL be living for others and wanting to live up to their expectations NOW if I hadn't gotten too sick to care anymore. It's an abusive way to live, and not fair to me. Too bad it took severe pain to make me realize it.

Actually, I act fairly "E" when I'm not under pressure either. It's just that in my case, I can't get away from pressure and I've had little opportunity to have social experience, so I feel very "I." I can converse for hours with a small group of people I feel comfortable with, and still be sad when they leave. I've also spent hours talking on the phone. The problem for me is being outside, being around crowds. I've always thought of "E's" as people who could handle crowds and feel energized. I can deal with crowds if I have to, but I look a little awkward, feel drained, and usually want to leave after a few hours.

I'm beginning to see a real blurring between INFJ/ENFJ now.

Of course... it would make you one another's "shadows" according to one theory. You would have all the functions in the same order, but in the opposite direction. Like this:

Ni Fe Ti Se

Ne Fi Te Si

I'm going to have to drag my sister in here to give her opinion. Her take on it i9s interesting and might be clarifying as she can see into the discussion as an ENFP without being involved in it.

There could be... but I'm not sure an online test is accurate at reading auras, or if auras themselves are accurate. I don't know what the meaning of it would be, though.

Accurate or not, I'd be interested to see what a "crystal" aura looks like!

I'm an ENFJ and I very much feel drained after dealing with crowds. I live near the city and I DREAD going in at Xmas time. Were some people thrive off the energy the HORDES of people give off, it simply overwhelms me. I have a vistor coming today from overseas and we'll be making multiple trips into the city. I'm going to be exhausted mentally.

I HATE the phone I hate texting the only thing I can seem to do for hours is im and even that has to be a really interesting convo to keep me going. I get in social moods where I want to be doing things and then there are weeks when all I want is me my couch and a good book or occasionally a movie.

I think I've said this WAY the heck to many times but people seem to think that the Fe part of an ENFJ means they are social and out there and wanting to be with people all the time. Not true. I'd rather observe people than actually socialize with them. I can. I'm rather good at it. People want me at their parties because I can and do push myself out there and I'm generally either helping out or helping entertain the other guests but if they'd let me alone I'd be more than happy and happier to just sit back and observe. I enjoy making people happy and making them laugh but I'd rather make them think. I think Kiersey had it right when he said that while and ESFJ is a social hostest and ENFJ is more concerned with the growth aspect of a person.

More things sounding familiar. Could it be that NFJs have the capacity to exert big bursts of intense connection but wear out faster because of it? Maybe we wear out faster due to the nature of our personalities being so intense all the time. Just a thought that's suddenly struck me.... I've watched ESFJs in action in a party environment and they definitely fill the host role with a level of "present presence" that ENFJs just don't have or simply don't naturally do.

I agree, my Fe tends to be more observant than interactive, but I do thrive on the interaction. For example, my INFJ friends absolutely loathe the subway and come to work pissed off at insignificant stuff that happens during the morning rush hour that I'm completely unbothered by. Based on what my INFJ friends say and the INFJs here on the forum I agree that their Fe feels compulsive/mandatory while I feel I can turn mine off and on at whim. I feel comfortable (maybe too comfortable) using Fe to disconnect from people as much as connect. It's pretty simple: just don't do all the things that you're "supposed" to do. I don't worry about it getting stuck on off because I know I can flip it back on when I want to.

Maybe I'm at the stage of development that I'm enjoying my Se and I'm not too terribly worried about the consequences. I work with a few ESFPs and their Se isn't the stereotypical party animal Se, it's the kind of Se that's amazingly perceptive to the tones of the environment. The are very attuned to small gestures and changes in body language by others and react accordingly. It genuinely looks predictive in the way Ni looks but they're registering it by other means. This is the type of Se I seek to emulate and become better at. I'm also noticing how ESFPs use their Te and while I'm working on a way to describe it, I'm just in awe of them. Thank goodness I've gotten past the stereotypical markers of type because I never would've thought these women were ESFPs. To be quite honest they connect the dots faster than I do because I'm not noticing what they notice as fast as they notice. They don't seem do much speculating on why they person does what they've noticed them doing (that's usually where I start), but they sure as hell notice the behavior faster than me.

That's it! I'm going to come over and rub some of your Se off on me like a bear scratching on a tree! w00t w00t!! Gimme some of that, woman!

 

[Athenian200]

I relate and don't to this. I *will* act as a sponge for stimulus, but I tend to get enervated by it to a certain extent, feel it so intensely I *must* disengage or suffer damage. I don't ever seem to enjoy the present moment as I'm always aware of only the NEXT moment coming up. I find stimulus, particular that which speaks most to me, can be both electrifying and dangerous to me, like an unprotected circuit waiting for a power spike to blow the fuses out of the wall. I do best when I can observe the stimulus remotely and take it away with me, then dissect it on the table until I've pulled all meaning from it and made it fully real. I'll see how it fits me/doesn't fit me and tailor it to me.

Wow. You couldn't have described me any better. That's exactly how I feel most of the time... sometimes even an intense discussion can make me want to lie down and absorb all the meaning in what was said. It's like I'm being bombarded with too much information... I'm trying so hard to be aware of what each person wants/needs, and they're all so different that I can't adapt to all their needs at once, so I keep worrying I'm going to offend someone. I usually try to compensate for this by stopping the awareness of them as individuals, and try to picture what's acceptable to the majority of people in society, and choose the behaviors that offend the lowest percentage of people. It's still stressful, though.

I tend to stay to the outside of the circle until the circle directly asks to draw me in. Otherwise, I prefer to involve myself in the group dynamic and even get a little freaked out when I'm put on the spot. I draw energy from human interaction and could never ever live in the country, but I also seem to have a cut-off point MUCH sooner than most Es I know, including my sister who take a level of social interaction without becoming crabby that I can't.

What I try to do is "cling" to the people I know and try to interact with them primarily, and stay with them so I don't feel like I'm "drowning" in the crowd. Out of strangers, I feel more comfortable talking to them if someone I know introduces them and says good things about them.

I used to. Being sick has pretty much ripped that element out of me. But I would probably STILL be living for others and wanting to live up to their expectations NOW if I hadn't gotten too sick to care anymore. It's an abusive way to live, and not fair to me. Too bad it took severe pain to make me realize it.

When did you get sick, what did you come down with, and how did it change your life? What were you like before, during, and after?

Accurate or not, I'd be interested to see what a "crystal" aura looks like!

Actually, I've heard that a crystal aura means a colorless, invisible one. Are you one of those people who can see auras? I've never seen one.

More things sounding familiar. Could it be that NFJs have the capacity to

exert big bursts of intense connection but wear out faster because of it? Maybe we wear out faster due to the nature of our personalities being so intense all the time.

Just a thought that's suddenly struck me.... I've watched ESFJs in action in a party environment and they definitely fill the host role with a level of "present presence" that ENFJs just don't have or simply don't naturally do.

I relate to that, but I always assumed it was because Ni and Ti absorbed so much of Fe's energy normally that it was a real strain to exert Fe too much.

I've never seen a definite ESFJ, but they do seem to have everything together in the middle of what seems to me like chaos. I don't know how they do it.

 

[Domino]

Wow. You couldn't have described me any better. That's exactly how I feel most of the time... sometimes even an intense discussion can make me want to lie down and absorb all the meaning in what was said. It's like I'm being bombarded with too much information... I'm trying so hard to be aware of what each person wants/needs, and they're all so different that I can't adapt to all their needs at once,

This is very relate-able. I frequently feel this way. Like there's a filter missing in my head that's supposed to weed out certain things. I go through periods of time where I can't LITERALLY get enough of absorbing information. My brain gets turned on full-throttle and I read for hours and hours and hours, days or weeks at a time. My retention goes through the roof. Then everything shuts down and I have to sit and "cool" for a week while my mind rests. I feel like I'm steeping in words or concepts or facts and I'm trying to get them ALL into my permanent consciousness. I do the "lie down and absorb" method frequently too. Just chew something over until I've gotten to the bottom of the thought to my satisfaction, making sure I haven't overlooked any detail. I think that's the "truth drive"?

I feel like I juggle people in my environment, esp at parties, tailoring my words or behavior to what is most enjoyable to that person (I'm still acting like myself, just perhaps not swearing around someone who wouldn't appreciate it, or talking about cars with someone who likes cars, or talking music with a band member, etc, that sort of thing). I leave parties pleasantly jacked up (in my nervous system) and my brain steaming from intense marathon interaction.

so I keep worrying I'm going to offend someone. I usually try to compensate for this by stopping the awareness of them as individuals, and try to picture what's acceptable to the majority of people in society, and choose the behaviors that offend the lowest percentage of people. It's still stressful, though....

What I try to do is "cling" to the people I know and try to interact with them primarily, and stay with them so I don't feel like I'm "drowning" in the crowd. Out of strangers, I feel more comfortable talking to them if someone I know introduces them and says good things about them.

That, I think, may be a uniquely Introverted perspective. This is the method you use in a crowded/semi-crowded/active social situation?

When did you get sick, what did you come down with, and how did it change your life? What were you like before, during, and after?

Long story short, I've got a genetic problem, a certain blood marker that announces a slant toward autoimmune disease. It's from the Native American side of the family. Jaye and I have been diagnosed with several autoimmune problems that overlap each other similar to lupus. We were diagnosed first about 10 years ago, more concisely just last year. My father has many symptoms but never achieved the full blown state we're in.

It pretty much ground our careers to a halt. I had to stop being a mechanic and Jay had to give up welding. I hate to use dramatic language, but lupus is the only thing that's ever driven me to the point of truly wanting to kill myself. I've been in dire straits before and felt hopeless, but I always came back from it. Lupus is something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

The one thing it's done in our favor is it has stopped people from leaning all over us. Jaye and I broke our health trying to bolster our family (you can read about one such incident/repeat offender in my latest blog entry if you like ) and we would still be hitched to the plow right now had not lupus made it impossible for my family to drive us to collapse anymore.

Actually, I've heard that a crystal aura means a colorless, invisible one. Are you one of those people who can see auras? I've never seen one.

I can't see them either! But I can feel vibes from people. (Though I doubt that's a particularly special feat... )

I relate to that, but I always assumed it was because Ni and Ti absorbed so much of Fe's energy normally that it was a real strain to exert Fe too much.

Excellent point you make.

I've never seen a definite ESFJ, but they do seem to have everything together in the middle of what seems to me like chaos. I don't know how they do it.

They truly seem to draw energy from the group experience. I watched my ESFJ friend at a party once and she was at the center of everything pretty much the whole time.

 

[Athenian200]

This is very relate-able. I frequently feel this way. Like there's a filter missing in my head that's supposed to weed out certain things. I go through periods of time where I can't LITERALLY get enough of absorbing information. My brain gets turned on full-throttle and I read for hours and hours and hours, days or weeks at a time. My retention goes through the roof. Then everything shuts down and I have to sit and "cool" for a week while my mind rests. I feel like I'm steeping in words or concepts or facts and I'm trying to get them ALL into my permanent consciousness. I do the "lie down and absorb" method frequently too. Just chew something over until I've gotten to the bottom of the thought to my satisfaction, making sure I haven't overlooked any detail. I think that's the "truth drive"?


I feel like I juggle people in my environment, esp at parties, tailoring my words or behavior to what is most enjoyable to that person (I'm still acting like myself, just perhaps not swearing around someone who wouldn't appreciate it, or talking about cars with someone who likes cars, or talking music with a band member, etc, that sort of thing). I leave parties pleasantly jacked up (in my nervous system) and my brain steaming from intense marathon interaction.

So far... very similar. Except I don't swear at all if I'm where people can hear me. I'm too worried about how I appear to do that.

That, I think, may be a uniquely Introverted perspective. This is the method you use in a crowded/semi-crowded/active social situation?

Yes, actually. But I've even seen other Introverts who were more comfortable than this. I spend so much time alone and rarely watch popular new movies to the point that I can seem slightly deranged, because there's this changing "flow" of accepted styles and forms most people are aware of due to spending time in public in a particular area, so I have to be careful to avoid discriminating people who pay a lot of attention to these. Because they might misinterpret my posture and intonations, and I want to have someone around who knows my idiosyncrasies well enough that they can explain what I meant before the person overreacts. Kind of like the way people in the future reacted to the main characters in Idiocracy. Although I do seem to improve as time passes while around people... they begin to adjust to me and I begin to adjust to them after a few hours. And if I keep it up, generally it stays better.

Long story short, I've got a genetic problem, a certain blood marker that announces a slant toward autoimmune disease. It's from the Native American side of the family. Jaye and I have been diagnosed with several autoimmune problems that overlap each other similar to lupus. We were diagnosed first about 10 years ago, more concisely just last year. My father has many symptoms but never achieved the full blown state we're in.

It pretty much ground our careers to a halt. I had to stop being a mechanic and Jay had to give up welding. I hate to use dramatic language, but lupus is the only thing that's ever driven me to the point of truly wanting to kill myself. I've been in dire straits before and felt hopeless, but I always came back from it. Lupus is something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

Oh... how long do you think you have? I guess if you stop posting a couple years from now, we'll all know why.

It's no wonder there were so few Indians remaining after the Europeans came. They just weren't as accustomed to disease as the Europeans who lived in close quarters and survived the black plague. I think our diseases killed most of them indirectly.

A mechanic and a welder? Not exactly typical jobs for an NF, but I'm not too surprised given that I'm very interested in computers (in fact at times I jokingly complain that people who don't know how to debug computers shouldn't be allowed to use them.), although what I really want to learn is psychology, and I think it matches my natural strengths better in the end.

So how are you making a living, out of curiosity? Disability/charity because you have a debilitating illness?

The one thing it's done in our favor is it has stopped people from leaning all over us. Jaye and I broke our health trying to bolster our family (you can read about one such incident/repeat offender in my latest blog entry if you like ) and we would still be hitched to the plow right now had not lupus made it impossible for my family to drive us to collapse anymore.

So your family made so many demands that it broke you? That's kind of sad that it took that to make them ease up on you, and perhaps realize what they were doing.

 

[the state i am in]

Se frustrates me bc it can be difficult for me to really be-in-the-moment. this relates to all things. especially in terms of how i feel so out-of-body, ungrounded, hesitant, unresponsive, uncertain of what is going on, etc. it limits the quality of information you pull in from teh situation and those around you.

i used to play sports and i loved the competitive feeling bc you'd lose your imagined sense of self and just let yourself respond freely on instinct. the best moments were when you were free and just allowing your body to do what it could do.

Se is a perceiving function, and for me as an infj i think it is my inferior bc i have such strongly developed Ni. it is my dominant function. i think if one were to rely on Ni more and more strongly, as an infj or an enfj, it would just pull away attention from Se. kind of absent-minded, introverting, scanning your own internal mental landscapes for connections, meanings, pathways, etc. this is the opposite of Se. you cannot do both at the same time. why meditating and going for walks and getting absorbed in sensory tasks are a really good balancing aspect for an overactive Ni perceiving brain.

 

[something boring]

While driving on a long trip (in the U.S.), note all the out-of-state license plates you see. Stay focused. Carefully check every car as it goes by. Notice everything you can about each state's plates: state mottos, colors, placement of text, pictures, any other special differences. For the full effect, write these things down in a log book.

^^Ok, this would cause me to crash.^^

 

[Kalach]

Physical self-expression: I dress boldly, but I don't do well with, say, the romantic end of things because the minute I'm made aware of myself, I become too aware and I shut down.

Fe.

My sister is always asking me common sense questions or saying things like "When did you brush your hair?... yesterday?! Brush your hair!" or "Your pants have a hole in them. It's time for new ones" or "You're going to freeze. Put on a coat." Did I notice the hole in my pants? Probably not. Or if I did, I didn't think about it again.

Si. (Which you don't do.)

I don't notice the lawn needs to be mowed. Or the bills need to be paid. I have to concentrate really hard to remember that stuff, and to approach the physical realm as something other than scary or devouring or flabbergasting.

Fe/Ni cares about lawn? Si would.

When a man/woman gives me a compliment, or tells me they think I'm beautiful, I turn into a block. I feel like I have no business drawing such a comment because I feel that divorced from the physical. You know, like an impostor. Not to say I'm awkward. I just NEVER get past being mystified when people notice me or when I'm magically NOT invisible.

Complimenting physical world aspects of people is an appeal to their Si.

My question is: Am I working off of my shadow more than I thought? can anyone PLEASE explain the Se and show me where it exerts any force on me at all?

Fe is your primary embrace on the world. Ni provides options for understanding. Se shows you where to attack. Seriously.

Se reads the physical signs: other people's faces, the position of their bodies, the shape of the room. It lets you hear them speak.

All of this is channelled into Fe/Ni and decisions are made about what to do next. Se serves your higher purposes by providing real time information.

That ENFJs by and large seem to be klutz'z is, I guess, a byproduct of crappy Si, not Se. Si would tell you how to perform with sweet grace. Se would tell you what you can grab a'hold of and burn.