[NF] INFJ/INFP Points of Contention

[Scott N Denver]

First of all, you do know that you can just edit your post next time you think of more to add, no need to post 3 times in a row heh.

Yes, I do know that. To me they were three different 'stream of consciousness" thoughts, at least that seems to be my memory, hence 3 different posts. Regardless, I also don't generally like writing superlong posts. Not that those were necessarily superlong...

I'm not sure what exactly the point of this post is? Who the fuck cares whether our internal struggles matter to anyone else?! They matter to us, and that's all that matters. We never asked anyone else to give a damn about them. So who are you to sit here and talk like that? To me it's very clear that you are a little bitter that you were not let into one in particular INFJ's internal struggles, and are now projecting like this. Very transparent and very childish.

My point was that while YOUR [ie an INFJ's] world may be turned topsy-turvy by something, that doesn't mean THE world has been turned topsy-turvy by [INFJ's] issue.

Obviously, INFP's can have big issues and emotional throws as well. I'm not trying to denigrate anybodies inner world, and INFP's have deep inner worlds as well.

I'm not aware of any INFJ's that I've dealt with that I felt they "blocked me from there inner world against their will."

NF's, all 4 types of them, are NOT generally known for their objectivity. As a path to growth, objectivity is a skill that many NF's would do well to develop at some point. [I think "Realistic expectations" is another growth development that would do NF's in general well]. I'd hardly consider a general call for a realistic "the world beyond just me and my emotions" assessment a slight against either you or INFJ's in general. And certainly INFP's are known for needing to deal with "the world beyond just me and my emotions", just see any post on poorly-developed INFP's for evidence of that.

Personally, I think its important for people to have a healthy emotional well-being. One thing that is important to achieve emotional inner well-being is to honestly be aware of and process internal emotional states. So in no way am I trying to take away form the importance of internal struggles and issues. But, just as the world is a much bigger place than ESP's need to constantly be playful and physically engaged, so also is the world a bigger place than just an INF's need to deal with their "internal stuff." The world doesn't stop turning because we have "internal junk" to deal with. And whether you, I or, anybody else likes that or not, that is the objective truth.


On a less serious note, I'm kinda excited cuz no one had called me "childish" in quite some time, I feel so young at heart now!

 

[JivinJeffJones]

The major problem I tend to have revolves around the INFJ doorslam. I'm a troubled person, I don't think that comes as a shock to anyone on this board. I have a lot of problems. Being an INFP, these have emotional consequences which I try to keep from others (irl at least), but with close friends who probe it just isn't possible (and INFJs probe a lot). Being "real" about yourself even when it's ugly is a huge part of intimacy for INFPs. The biggest. My problem with INFJs is that this kind of realness exposes my troubles, and then they get really invested in trying to fix me. I appreciate the concern, and the effort. I really do. But, for reasons not clear to me but almost certainly my fault, their solutions tend to either not work or not stick. Then they get disappointed and upset, and eventually frustrated/resentful. They keep picking at you until it gets to the point where neither of you can relax in the other's presence. Then the INFJ doorslam. Thus I've found the only way to maintain a degree of friendship with them is to not be real with them. Keep them out. Obviously they pick up on this. This has all been based on my experience with only a few INFJs, so I'm not really sure how true-to-type it is.

So I guess it boils down to what I perceive as the ongoing conditionality of their friendship. I don't think it's an unreasonable quality to have -- in fact it makes perfect sense. But for me once a friendship passes a certain point it's pretty much irrevocable. I'm 80% sure I'd help a genuine friend bury a body, even if I spent the next 50 years trying to convince them to turn themselves in. That is what it is -- I don't think it's a virtue. I'm sure it isn't, actually.

Thinking about it some more, with the INFJ friendships I've had the "being real" process has seemed to me to be a one-way street. I share with them, they use what I share to try to fix me. They don't share back, unless it's in the form of "this is how I learned the lesson of why you should do this". I'm not saying that if I share something personal with you then you owe me something personal back. But when there seems to be a blatant pattern of one-sidedness to this unveiling of self then I have to wonder at the dynamic of the friendship. Often it seems to me that these confessions serve simply to give them leverage to tell me how to live my life. Which makes me wonder if they're really friends at all, or simply a kind of roaming developmental paramedic. So I guess I've never really felt that close to INFJs.

There are other things which irk revolving mostly around typical Fe/Fi differences, but those are the biggest for me personally.

Edit: nothing in this post is based on any forum INFJs.

 

[musttry]

It's amazing how everything in this post rings true. Here is the situation between me (INFJ) and my INFP (ex)girlfriend:

We started dating not long after she and her ex of many years restarted a friendship a year after they had broken up. At first I was cool with this because, having had a 7 year relationship myself and being friends with some of my exes, I know how attached we can feel to someone.

I soon discovered that he was trying to get her back and that she was in a big emotional quagmire, not knowing how to deal with the situation. It became clear to me that she was going to have to make a decision between the two of us and so I broke it off with her and told her to let me know when she had made up her mind. I suspect that she is taking this as rejection and a lack of understanding on my part. However, in my Fe book, things need to be clear, one way or another.

Now I'm confused. I have no idea how Fi makes such decisions. I thought it was a black and white issue with them and that they automatically felt what was right for them or not.

Here is my question: Can Fi make a clear cut decision or not?

 

[runvardh]

Here is my question: Can Fi make a clear cut decision or not?

Short response: No, that's what our Inferior Te is for, unfortunately.

My question for you: Did you talk to her about it and get a poor answer, or did you drop her on strictly an intuition?

 

[musttry]

Thanks runvardh.

We started talking about it three weeks ago and I started getting the whole story through bits and pieces. When I asked her who she wanted to be with she said she was unable to answer the question. She seems to want to discuss the issue of her ex with me but I truly don't think I'm the one she should be talking to about this.

 

[runvardh]

Thanks runvardh.

We started talking about it three weeks ago and I started getting the whole story through bits and pieces. When I asked her who she wanted to be with she said she was unable to answer the question. She seems to want to discuss the issue of her ex with me but I truly don't think I'm the one she should be talking to about this.

Sounds like she needed to talk about that stuff with a friend instead of making you nervous. Then again, her telling it to you is part of vulnerability which means you meant more to her anyway at the time. I guess I can't see either of you as right or wrong (which I'm sure others will tag me on). I got an ENFJ nervous about how I loved my friends and it turned into a whole night of bad emo bullshit. I didn't manage to communicate the situation correctly at first, and she flew off the handle and refused to communicate (her particular insecurity at that point). It's frustrating, but with out decent communication and the willingness to communicate most relationships get fucked up quick.

 

[musttry]

I agree that she needs to speak with a friend. I was glad to find out that one of her girlfriends spent an evening with her this week to chat. I'll be seeing my gf at salsa tonight so I guess I'll see how things are evolving.

I can definitely picture a night of bad emo bullshitting. Pitting two NFs together can only become emotional I get the feeling that while I need to put a finger on the main issue before discussing it, the INFP needs to work through it by discussing it. Mind you, IMO this could be a personality thing as much of a gender issue, if you'll pardon me being sexist for a moment.

 

[runvardh]

I agree that she needs to speak with a friend. I was glad to find out that one of her girlfriends spent an evening with her this week to chat. I'll be seeing my gf at salsa tonight so I guess I'll see how things are evolving.

I can definitely picture a night of bad emo bullshitting. Pitting two NFs together can only become emotional I get the feeling that while I need to put a finger on the main issue before discussing it, the INFP needs to work through it by discussing it. Mind you, IMO this could be a personality thing as much of a gender issue, if you'll pardon me being sexist for a moment.

Na, girls do seem to need to talk through it more and it's good she managed to try hashing it out with a friend. The bad emo BS causing admission of mine started with the girl asking me how I felt about my friends. It was only resolved after having a mutual friend mediate till I got her on the phone.

 

[musttry]

Glad it got resolved. I'm hoping my situation will get resolved soon. Well, I'm off for now.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

Here is my question: Can Fi make a clear cut decision or not?

It can, but it's not always a quick process. Especially with something like this, where she was in a relationship with the guy for a number of years. I've never been in a situation like that, but I imagine INFPs aren't great at letting go emotionally. How it ended could have a bearing on that. And there may be a grass-is-greener element at play. Whatever the case, there will be strong and conflicting emotions at play, and it may take her a while to identify, untangle and disengage them.

FWIW I think you did the right thing. Give her some space and let her sort out how she feels and what she really wants. And it sounds like if you're to be together you don't want her maintaining her friendship with the ex. Unless she has a kid to him, there's probably no good reason for it to continue and plenty of good reasons for it to end. For both of them.

Good luck.

 

[Phantonym]

I think that's it for me with INFP friendships - I just don't know where I'm at and I'm not sure what the signs are when I am in. For me, it seems like my signs are quite clear (even though I know that NFPs don't always feel that way), so I think Protean's analysis of that is something that I can identify with. It seems to me that INFP friendships are always more on their terms. It's not that it's bad, because we have a fun time together and everything. It's just that I don't know that I could really count on them consistently or that things between us are as I perceive them. When they are going through something, they just disappear and I'm not sure how to help them or even where to find them in a sense. I think I'm relatively perceptive and a good listener and make a point of not offering very much advice to them, but still...

That's exactly how I feel about INFP friendships as well. It seems like we get along great, we have fun and everything but there's always some distance between us. They're not that great on follow-up. Maybe it's just me, expecting too much. I let them have their space but still...

 

[Usehername]

I very much agree with the NFJ responses like Protean's about a linear progression toward a very personal friendship, but I also find this post interesting:

The major problem I tend to have revolves around the INFJ doorslam. I'm a troubled person, I don't think that comes as a shock to anyone on this board. I have a lot of problems. Being an INFP, these have emotional consequences which I try to keep from others (irl at least), but with close friends who probe it just isn't possible (and INFJs probe a lot). Being "real" about yourself even when it's ugly is a huge part of intimacy for INFPs. The biggest. My problem with INFJs is that they get really invested in trying to fix me. I appreciate the concern, and the effort. I really do. But, for reasons not clear to me but almost certainly my fault, their solutions tend to either not work or not stick. Then they get disappointed and upset, and eventually frustrated/resentful. They keep picking at you until it gets to the point where neither of you can relax in the other's presence. Then the INFJ doorslam. Thus I've found the only way to maintain a degree of friendship with them is to not be real with them. Keep them out. Obviously they pick up on this. This has all been based on my experience with only a few INFJs, so I'm not really sure how true-to-type it is.

So I guess it boils down to what I perceive as the ongoing conditionality of their friendship. I don't think it's an unreasonable quality to have -- in fact it makes perfect sense. But for me once a friendship passes a certain point it's pretty much irrevocable. I'm 80% sure I'd help a genuine friend bury a body, even if I spent the next 50 years trying to convince them to turn themselves in. That is what it is -- I don't think it's a virtue. I'm sure it isn't, actually.

Thinking about it some more, with the INFJ friendships I've had the "being real" process has seemed to me to be a one-way street. I share with them, they use what I share to try to fix me. They don't share back, unless it's in the form of "this is how I learned the lesson of why you should do this". I'm not saying that if I share something personal with you then you owe me something personal back. But when there seems to be a blatant pattern of one-sidedness to this unveiling of self then I have to wonder at the dynamic of the friendship. Often it seems to me that these confessions serve simply to give them leverage to tell me how to live my life. Which makes me wonder if they're really friends at all, or simply a kind of roaming developmental paramedic. So I guess I've never really felt that close to INFJs.

There are other things which irk revolving mostly around typical Fe/Fi differences, but those are the biggest for me personally.

Edit: nothing in this post is based on any forum INFJs.

JJJ, do you think it has anything to do with the INxJ fixation on constantly growing oneself? I'm not an INFJ, but I can imagine myself in that situation as them, and I wonder if the INFJ need to see others constantly growing is the problem here rather than a blatant unacceptance of who you are and where you're at. IMO the constant growth thing refers more to the attitude of working at it and attending to the flaws rather than the output of results and improvement.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

JJJ, do you think it has anything to do with the INxJ fixation on constantly growing oneself? I'm not an INFJ, but I can imagine myself in that situation as them, and I wonder if the INFJ need to see others constantly growing is the problem here rather than a blatant unacceptance of who you are and where you're at. IMO the constant growth thing refers more to the attitude of working at it and attending to the flaws rather than the output of results and improvement.

It could be, I don't entirely understand it myself. I seem to remember an INFJ on these boards saying that it happened as a kind of self-defence mechanism. Rather than endure the increasing frustration and helplessness of seeing a lack of progress (or deterioration) in areas which are clearly causing problems, they cut the person out of their life. Basically, if it has to happen they'd rather not witness it.

 

[WoodsWoman]

Is it perhaps that Fe needs to see others growing and Fi needs to sense oneself growing? The latter would be very true for me.

 

[fill]

Is it perhaps that Fe needs to see others growing and Fi needs to sense oneself growing? The latter would be very true for me.

That's an interesting hypothesis. I like it.

 

[Usehername]

Is it perhaps that Fe needs to see others growing and Fi needs to sense oneself growing? The latter would be very true for me.

I think it's the Nidom way of life. Growth in self, growth in others, or what's the point in living?

 

[Fidelia]

One thing I was just thinking about. My INFP friend doesn't seem to need interactions with someone to solve a problem as long as she has resolved it within herself. I, on the other hand, need the closure/input from the other person involved to feel that things are resolved. Maybe the significant factor is that Fe looks to others to find the answer and Fi looks to find the answer within itself.

This is why INFJs feel the need to try to help along those close to them that are in distress and is why they find it painful to see them floundering and seemingly doing nothing. It's because they feel there is an external solution and they also believe that talking about it will help the answer take shape. To an INFP this is pushy and ineffectual because no one can see inside them or truly understand their unique person/situation and therefore no one except themselves can really offer the answer.

On the other hand, INFPs tend to leave a person to their own devices and assume that they need to find the answer within themselves for it to really be solved. To an INFJ, this seems like indifference or a lack of care. They feel abandoned. Their thought process needs to be stimulated to some extent by discussing it with others. That's when their own thoughts and feelings take a tangible form that they can actually touch and grab onto. (Without that, they can see those thoughts or feelings, but they are fuzzy and they can't grab hold of them).

I'm not sure if this is expressed very clearly, or if it is something that others can identify with, but I think it may be the cause of some of the misunderstandings I feel with INFPs. They have a hard time seeing why I can't just let something go that's bothering me if I know what the probable reason is and I can't do anything about it to fix it. They find it much easier to let go, as long as it's found resolution within themselves. For me though, I need that last bit of interaction to really lay the whole thing to rest and realize that nothing can be done to fix what's wrong.

 

[WoodsWoman]

I like the way you've put this fidelia. Very nice.

 

[Scott N Denver]

One thing I was just thinking about. My INFP friend doesn't seem to need interactions with someone to solve a problem as long as she has resolved it within herself. I, on the other hand, need the closure/input from the other person involved to feel that things are resolved. Maybe the significant factor is that Fe looks to others to find the answer and Fi looks to find the answer within itself.

This is why INFJs feel the need to try to help along those close to them that are in distress and is why they find it painful to see them floundering and seemingly doing nothing. It's because they feel there is an external solution and they also believe that talking about it will help the answer take shape. To an INFP this is pushy and ineffectual because no one can see inside them or truly understand their unique person/situation and therefore no one except themselves can really offer the answer.

On the other hand, INFPs tend to leave a person to their own devices and assume that they need to find the answer within themselves for it to really be solved. To an INFJ, this seems like indifference or a lack of care. They feel abandoned. Their thought process (even apart from the other person involved in the problem) needs to be stimulated to some extent by discussing it with others. That's when their own thoughts and feelings take a tangible form that they can actually touch and grab onto. (Before, they can see it those thoughts or feelings, but they are fuzzy and they can't grab hold of them).

I'm not sure if this is expressed very clearly, or if it is something that others can identify with, but I think it may be the cause of some of the misunderstandings I feel with INFPs. They have a hard time seeing why I can't just let something go that's bothering me if I know what the probable reason is and I can't do anything about it to fix it. They find it much easier to let go, as long as it's found resolution within themselves. For me though, I need that last bit of interaction to really lay the whole thing to rest and realize that nothing can be done to fix what's wrong.

Very well put, I had never thought about it before. Very interesting...

 

[runvardh]

Strange, I've typically tried to solve my own problems first before cracking and seeing if others can help. However, when it comes to others having problems, I've had to talk myself out of helping due to them often dragging me into their shit pile with them instead of wanting a way out. I wish I could help people, but people need to want out first and I need to get my shit together...