[SP] Friends With Cuddling Benefits?

[simulatedworld]

I'm not, my "misleading bastards" was also a joke.

It would just be nice to have some male friends where it wasn't an issue, I AM an idealist you know.

Oh...it's hard to tell with you people sometimes, because half the time when you complain about this sort of thing on a naive idealistic basis, you're being completely serious.

My fault for misreading tone.

 

[BerberElla]

Oh...it's hard to tell with you people sometimes, because half the time when you complain about this sort of thing on a naive idealistic basis, you're being completely serious.

My fault for misreading tone.

aliens?

 

[Amargith]

I agree that the sexual double standard is silly. I also think it's kind of funny that you don't recognize how these "OMG MEN ARE SUCH PERVS FOR WANTING SEX WITH US WHEN WE JUST WANT TO CUDDLE" threads contribute directly to it--you're pissing in your own bathwater and then complaining that it's yellow.

Dude, wtf are you on about? Stellar started this thread to say how awesome cuddling is. And Stellar be male, btw

Also, I have no problem with men wanting sex. I've never had a problem with that. It's a very strong drive in men, with good reason. And for that matter, I love sex myself, so I have no qualms with sharing that experience with them.

All I'm saying is that it gets tiresome that *any* physical attention, hell, any attention, is immediately perceived as 'omg, she might sleep with me'. And then when she doesn't, and actually just does what she said she would: cuddle, talk to you, be your friend, etc, men get pissed that they've been misled and haven't gotten theirs. That's just ridiculous.

If I wanna sleep with you, I'll make that very clear, don't worry. But don't be disappointed if what I said I was going to do, aka cuddle, doesn't live up to the expectations *you* had. I never misled you at that point. Take what I say at face value, instead of indulging yourself in wishful thinking. For that matter, enjoy the experience instead of getting frustrated at what you didn't get. Alternatively, if you aren't in need of physical affection without sex, then politely decline. That's your prerogative, the choice you have. All this wishy washy, reading between the lines and misunderstanding shit, is just annoying.

(Disclaimer: Plz remember that I am NFP and this is meant as a general statement, not a personal one, though I write in a personal style):

I personally pretty much enjoy all physical touch experiences with those I trust, without or without sex, and find it to be very comforting. And ime as long as things are clear and people trust you, many, including men, tend to very much enjoy that comforting feeling of being held. We're social beings after all. Sometimes words just aren't good enough and touch says it all.

Actually, I wonder why it is that Stellar seeks it out...Stellar?

 

[Kaizer]

I recall having watched a documentary on touch and development of babies.... here's a random page I googled :THE RIGHT TOUCH: THE ART OF INFANT MASSAGE

 

[simulatedworld]

Dude, wtf are you on about? Stellar started this thread to say how awesome cuddling is. And Stellar be male, btw

k

Also, I have no problem with men wanting sex. I've never had a problem with that. It's a very strong drive in men, with good reason. And for that matter, I love sex myself, so I have no qualms with sharing that experience with them.

It's a very strong drive in women too. That's why men find it confusing and frustrating when you display signs of physical attraction and then don't want sex.

All I'm saying is that it gets tiresome that *any* physical attention, hell, any attention, is immediately perceived as 'omg, she might sleep with me'. And then when she doesn't, and actually just does what she said she would: cuddle, talk to you, be your friend, etc, men get pissed that they've been misled and haven't gotten theirs. That's just ridiculous.

But she's already "said" implicitly that she's potentially interested in sex simply by showing physical attraction and being physically intimate. That's what these signals typically mean, so no, it's not ridiculous for men to interpret them that way--it's far more ridiculous for you to give these signals and then get upset/surprised when men interpret them to mean what they normally mean.

You are the one using sexual signals in a misleading way.

If I wanna sleep with you, I'll make that very clear, don't worry. But don't be disappointed if what I said I was going to do, aka cuddle, doesn't live up to the expectations *you* had. I never misled you at that point. Take what I say at face value, instead of indulging yourself in wishful thinking. For that matter, enjoy the experience instead of getting frustrated at what you didn't get. Alternatively, if you aren't in need of physical affection without sex, then politely decline. That's your prerogative, the choice you have. All this wishy washy, reading between the lines and misunderstanding shit, is just annoying.

lol, yeah, you did. You may not have overtly stated OMG I WANT YOUR SEX, but you did imply through cuddling or other physical means that you're interested in a physical relationship.

There's a reason this keeps happening to you, and until you stop using signals that typically imply that you want sex, men will not stop interpreting them as indicators that you do. I'd say you need to be more cognizant of the mixed messages you're sending and how men are biologically wired to interpret them.

(Disclaimer: Plz remember that I am NFP and this is meant as a general statement, not a personal one, though I write in a personal style):

I personally pretty much enjoy all physical touch experiences with those I trust, without or without sex, and find it to be very comforting. And ime as long as things are clear and people trust you, many, including men, tend to very much enjoy that comforting feeling of being held. We're social beings after all. Sometimes words just aren't good enough and touch says it all.

Actually, I wonder why it is that Stellar seeks it out...Stellar?

Yes, the problem is that you don't realize how much touch actually says, and you think men are being "presumptuous" by interpreting your signals in this way. Fact is, most of the time when people show physical intimacy beyond basic friend-hugging, it DOES mean that they're interested in more, so men are not really at fault for interpreting your signals this way.

I don't doubt that it's annoying for you, but the problem lies more with your refusal to accept the non-verbal meaning inherent in the signals you're sending, not with men's interpretations of them.

Most women do NOT overtly tell you verbally when they want to have sex with you; they use much subtler means, usually involving things like cuddling and physical intimacy because those tend to imply that more intimate contact is desired.

You need to make more of an effort to make it explicitly clear when you are NOT interested, and this sort of thing will work itself out...but you can't run around giving the same signals that most women use to indicate that they are sexually interested, and then also complain when men interpret them that way.

aliens?

I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest.

 

[Silly_Siren]

There's a lot of talking and arguing, but no cuddling, why is this? I don't have to have cuddle bitches; I have family, female friends, boyfriends from time to time, I just want to cuddle! I don't want to emasculate my male friends and make them these "cuddle bitches", they do so on their own accord. NFP be damned, I enjoy non-sexual physical intimacy, not everything has to be an elaborate blinking system of: Let's have sex/let's not have sex. I just want to go to the Rationale and cuddle them until they are all NF's

 

[Amargith]

Actually, this doesn't keep happening to me, as you might have noticed in the other posts I put in here. My friends know I'm taken and know my values on that. And those same male friends still picked me, from their bunch of female friends to come to to be comforted and hugged. Because they know I won't read into it. Because they know I won't tell anyone that they're feeling vulnerable and blue. And I don't do this with men I don't know or trust. And you have got to stop thinking that this is from my own experience. I sorted out 'the problem' years ago by being clear on this issue in my own life. I'm again, merely referring to the general attitude surrounding this problem. I see so much misunderstanding around me because of this, it saddens me. Especially since so many people feel alone but cannot find comfort with each other as 'social protocol' won't allow it. Or so they feel.

Some people are like yourself, and consider physical touch= sexual interest. Not everyone is like that. And no, trust me, it's not just NFPs that feel that way. At least not ime. Most of those men were NT, actually.

 

[simulatedworld]

There's a lot of talking and arguing, but no cuddling, why is this? I don't have to have cuddle bitches; I have family, female friends, boyfriends from time to time, I just want to cuddle! I don't want to emasculate my male friends and make them these "cuddle bitches", they do so on their own accord. NFP be damned, I enjoy non-sexual physical intimacy, not everything has to be an elaborate blinking system of: Let's have sex/let's not have sex. I just want to go to the Rationale and cuddle them until they are all NF's

A lot more of human interaction is based on subconscious sexual desire/mating drives than you might expect.

 

[simulatedworld]

Actually, this doesn't keep happening to me, as you might have noticed in the other posts I put in here. My friends know I'm taken and know my values on that. And those same male friends still picked me, from their bunch of female friends to come to to be comforted and hugged. Because they know I won't read into it. Because they know I won't tell anyone that they're feeling vulnerable and blue. And I don't do this with men I don't know or trust. And you have got to stop thinking that this is from my own experience. I sorted out 'the problem' years ago by being clear on this issue in my own life. I'm again, merely referring to the general attitude surrounding this problem. I see so much misunderstanding around me because of this, it saddens me. Especially since so many people feel alone but cannot find comfort with each other as 'social protocol' won't allow it. Or so they feel.

Some people are like yourself, and consider physical touch= sexual interest. Not everyone is like that. And no, trust me, it's not just NFPs that feel that way. At least not ime. Most of those men were NT, actually.

I honestly don't have any interest in your personal experiences on who does and doesn't engage in sex-free cuddling; I'm just trying to explain why this happens. Obviously it's possible for people to engage in purely platonic cuddling; you just shouldn't be surprised when this isn't the default interpretation.

And again, yes it's obviously not only NFP women who feel this way; this group just shows more of a tendency toward romantic idealism and gets upset about this topic more often than others. (See berberella's post about being considered a "piece of meat"--NFP women are far more likely to take it personally/get offended over nothing when men are sexually but not personally interested in them.)

It's not just me that sees it this way; these things are hard-wired into human biology. Sorry if that isn't what you want to hear, but that's life.

 

[Amargith]

Human biology also wired us to be social, to need each others company, and not just for mating. To seek comfort in one another, in times of need. Just to feel close to someone. Some are more prone to this need than others, but it's still there. I get why it gets confused with the mating process, as part of it appears in there too. But it shouldn't drive us to make that part only exclusive to the mating process. That just robs us of an incredibly social tool, meant to further our well-being and happiness, and alleviate stress which ultimately is harmfull. We'd be mad not to use this evolutionary tool, imo.

 

[simulatedworld]

Human biology also wired us to be social, to need each others company, and not just for mating. To seek comfort in one another, in times of need. Just to feel close to someone. Some are more prone to this need than others, but it's still there. I get why it gets confused with the mating process, as part of it appears in there too. But it shouldn't drive us to make that part only exclusive to the mating process. That just robs us of an incredibly social tool, meant to further our well-being and happiness, and alleviate stress which ultimately is harmfull. We'd be mad not to use this evolutionary tool, imo.

Many people find sex to be equally stress-relieving if not moreso. I mentioned NFP women specifically because (with the possible exception of SFJs), you are by far the most likely group to take moral issue with sex outside of love and/or be offended when men show sexual interest while not caring about you personally.

P.S.,

Human sex drive is much, much, much stronger than human cuddle drive.

 

[Amargith]

Having a preference as to stress aliviation doesn't mean exclusion of other methods. Or other people's preferences.

I'm going to ignore your NFP remarks from now on, as I'm a bit tired of hearing them over and over again. You're basing this on your own experiences, and that's fine, but I cannot say they apply to me, so I cannot comment properly on them.

 

[warm8]

wait, huh? I was about to post and brag about my cuddling partner but there's some kinda argument and I didn't want to seem like an idiot if I didn't acknowledge it

 

[Amargith]

wait, huh? I was about to post and brag about my cuddling partner but there's some kinda argument and I didn't want to seem like an idiot if I didn't acknowledge it

Plz post your story, maybe it'll rerail the convo

 

[proteanmix]

I stopped reading the responses after I could tell the thread was going in a certain direction, but I could be wrong cause I stopped reading.

For those women arguing that they should be able to have non-sexual affection with a man who they are not in a relationship with and the guy shouldn't reasonably expect anything more (SEX) I really find that to be a incredulously naive POV. I think your best bet is to buy a teddy bear.

Women get more benefits from cuddling (everything from lessening depression to strengthening the heart) than men do, actually it does very little for them. I'm not denying a woman's greater need for non-sexual affection, I just think realistically if you're cuddling up with someone who's not your SO and it's a guy he's going to expect some pony up after awhile because he is being used in a way.

As CaptainChick so eloquently brought up, does cuddling with other women produce the same effect or is it specifically guys?

 

[simulatedworld]

Having a preference as to stress aliviation doesn't mean exclusion of other methods. Or other people's preferences.

I'm going to ignore your NFP remarks from now on, as I'm a bit tired of hearing them over and over again. You're basing this on your own experiences, and that's fine, but I cannot say they apply to me, so I cannot comment properly on them.

lol right. Sorry, I meant "NFP women except for amargith."

You really don't think they apply to you? :yim_rolling_on_the_:yim_rolling_on_the_

Honestly, virtually all of your responses in this thread are classic NFP female. I'm not telling you to change that; just pointing out an obvious trend.

I stopped reading the responses after I could tell the thread was going in a certain direction, but I could be wrong cause I stopped reading.

For those women arguing that they should be able to have non-sexual affection with a man who they are not in a relationship with and the guy shouldn't reasonably expect anything more (SEX) I really find that to be a incredulously naive POV. I think your best bet is to buy a teddy bear.

Women get more benefits from cuddling (everything from lessening depression to strengthening the heart) than men do, actually it does very little for them. I'm not denying a woman's greater need for non-sexual affection, I just think realistically if you're cuddling up with someone who's not your SO and it's a guy he's going to expect some pony up after awhile because he is being used in a way.

As CaptainChick so eloquently brought up, does cuddling with other women produce the same effect or is it specifically guys?

For once I completely agree. This is a great example of how much more practical/realistic NFJs can be.

 

[warm8]

Plz post your story, maybe it'll rerail the convo

oh, well she was my girlfriend for a while, but we just stressed each other out a lot. now we're basically the closest of friends (you know, minus the stressing out) but with intimate cuddling, i love yous, and beyond that.

 

[Amargith]

I stopped reading the responses after I could tell the thread was going in a certain direction, but I could be wrong cause I stopped reading.

For those women arguing that they should be able to have non-sexual affection with a man who they are not in a relationship with and the guy shouldn't reasonably expect anything more (SEX) I really find that to be a incredulously naive POV. I think your best bet is to buy a teddy bear.

Women get more benefits from cuddling (everything from lessening depression to strengthening the heart) than men do, actually it does very little for them. I'm not denying a woman's greater need for non-sexual affection, I just think realistically if you're cuddling up with someone who's not your SO and it's a guy he's going to expect some pony up after awhile because he is being used in a way.

As CaptainChick so eloquently brought up, does cuddling with other women produce the same effect or is it specifically guys?

I think it's stronger with men. At least it is, ime, with the exception of being comforted when emotionally upset. Think it has something to do with the fact that the presence of a man tend to stabilize our hormones and moodswings. If I remember correctly, they have some pheromone stuff that does that or something. I'd have to look it up.

As for your other point, I've never had a problem with it. In fact, I've found guys being quite receptive to it and often initiating it themselves while fully well knowing nothing was going to happen.

 

[simulatedworld]

As for your other point, I've never had a problem with it. In fact, I've found guys being quite receptive to it and often initiating it themselves while fully well knowing nothing was going to happen.

This could be at least partially because you specifically seek out this type of man for friendship, don't you think? Your sample may be biased.

 

[Charmed Justice]

Depends on what type of cuddling. I personally was never one to cuddle up to a man, in a bed, or on a couch, unless I was expecting to take things further.

I don't think being intimately cuddly would work for me. For one, because being spooned or comfy under the covers with a hot guy friend(and they're all hot), would/would've turned me completely on and my impulse control once the ball gets rolling is essentially nill. And two, most of my guy friends are the same way.