Threshold ~ Where do you stop?

[Xander]

I was reading through those threads you read when your not really looking to converse but are interested anyway and I found this gem of thinking.

I hope Leenylulu ( ) does mind me using it.

I am religious/spiritual. I don't have necessarily supernatural beliefs, though, because I find that I can't intellectually commit to them. So I commit to the stories as valuable. Maybe it's a cop-out; it probably is, but it's what I can do right now. I yearn for the God that might as well be there, but that probably isn't literally there.

Things make more sense to me when I go to mass. That's all I really know.

Now personally I'd never thought of it this way. I too often find myself hoping that there is something more to this existence but I fail to convince my brain that it's something we should engage in. It's like half of me is lifted by the whole religion movement and the other half is repelled. So far the repulsion effect has always won out.

I should explain that it's not repulsion versus the people or even really their practices. It's just the certainty offends my principles, the whole "group hug" aura makes me want to run and the whole holy word and "you shall do this or burn" only ever produces a mental construct of two fingers saying victory to the person behind me

Anyhow the thought that occurred to me after reading that quoted section was more along the lines of
If I were to believe in the divine then why not the supernatural? If God exists then Karma would be his influence.
What about ghosts? They too could be included.
Aliens would be an obvious inclusion too as why would a god only produce one experiment to play with?
If God exists then so too do Angels and Devils, the war between good and evil and all that implies?

Basically my mind got to a point and then my brain reminds me that this is why we're not religious because it's silly.

So I guess it's kind of a challenge to those who do believe or just a point to muse over but where do you draw the line? Is there a line to be drawn or are all things true equally?

I'm wondering how I could believe in God but not the supernatural. I can see it working the other way around but to believe that there's an all pervasive, ever present deity (you can't get more supernatural than that) but not ghosts is not something my brain likes.

 

[Domino]

I'm wondering how I could believe in God but not the supernatural. I can see it working the other way around but to believe that there's an all pervasive, ever present deity (you can't get more supernatural than that) but not ghosts is not something my brain likes.

There's WAY too much on this subject for me to comment on so I think I'll just come at it as directly as I can and let you infer what you will.

I've been in church pretty much all my life. Presbyterian, Episcopalian, non-denom, even Catholic. I know what I believe in -- a one divine God, much like the Muslim's Allah. This doesn't mean, even after a life time of pursuit, that I can answer my own questions without raising more in their place that prove to be even more insolvent to reason.

I believe that time is a fluid, that people die but never quite "go away", that spirits both good and bad exist, and that God is active in the every day lives of the people. I have a man at Duke University who wants to test me for ESP (another long, warped story for another time, perhaps) and I have yet to figure out how it could possibly square with my Christian beliefs, but the dreams still happen, the precognitive visions that come true, the premonitions. It's both scary and stupefying, and it's been happening since I was a child.

I bring this up because my sister, mother and I were just debating what to do the other night. None of us think we're Abraham Lincoln, or that God wants to exterminate people, or that we're a cheese sandwich with chips. We're perfectly sane, rational folks who honestly want to get on with the business of life -- i.e. fix up the house, save a little money, get married, normal stuff. But we don't get "normal". We get "weird". I frequently look at God as if He's pulling some sort of big prank on me that I haven't figured out.

Having said that, I've found some help in reading the Catholic mystics, but still, I feel as if I'm really a looney and I just don't know it yet?? I think modern society, which is supremely humanistic (regardless of all that "in God we trust" stuff), compels most people, especially the Rational and Thinker types, to believe that all religion is hokum designed to clutter their brains with arcane superstition. Then again, C. S. Lewis was hardly a crackpot, was he?

I think I may have just made all this MORE confusing. Apologies.

 

[helen]

Cool topic. I've been thinking about this lately, and while I'm still unsure of my own thoughts on the matter, am happy to share a few musings.

I agree with your reasoning that admitting the existence of God involves admitting at least the possibility of angels, demons, ghosts, aliens, and what have you.

However, to me the difference is one of faith. Faith is not the denial or repression of doubts, but it is a centered act of the whole personality affirmation of the ultimacy of it's ultimate concern (ie, whatever is God to you) in spite of doubt. It is a risk of the whole self that requires courage. Yes, there are good reasons for belief in God. But there are also reasons (perhaps good ones) for disbelief. Faith transcends all of that. This sounds mysterious. Faith is mysterious. "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh and whither it goeth: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8) So, yeah, I have trouble describing faith, but to move on.

I refuse to (knowingly) exercise faith towards anything less than God. So while believing in God forces one to at least acknowledge the possibility of other supernatural phenomena, I need not believe in them unless I have good reason, any more than any secular agnostic does. My attitude towards them is basically one of skeptical indifference. If I saw a ghost or an alien, I might believe in them. Or I might decide that I was crazy or having a hallucination. IMO, it's not of ultimate concern and doesn't much matter.

Ghosts and such phenomena can't really be disproven. You can disprove individual instances, but not the possibility, no matter what your philosophic outlook is, although they may seem more or less likely to you depending on your frame of reference. I don't think it needs to be the deciding factor when it comes to matters of faith in a deity. In fact, I think it may be almost irrelevant.

Could be totally wrong about all of the above. But that's my current perspective.

 

[runvardh]

I'm of the belief that we are in the middle of a war between good and evil; however I find love is my greatest weapon - not hate.

 

[Domino]

Helen makes a good point about faith. It's something you believe in without having physically seen. Like Lewis said, if someone were to tell you there was a tiger next door, you might feel fear or anxiety. If someone were to tell you there was a ghost next door, you wouldn't feel the same way you would about a tiger, because a tiger is something fully grounded in this world and something you've seen. A ghost is not. You don't have to believe in something for it to exist or exert a force on you. I believe Lewis called that not-fear-but-not-pleasant feeling, the numinous, an unbidden response to the sacred.

 

[INTJMom]

I am a person of faith. I believe the Bible is true. I believe there is a benevolent God who is stronger than the evil devil. I believe there are angels and demons. I believe in Heaven and Hell. I believe every human has an eternal soul. I believe ghosts are demons taking the form of a dead human. I don't believe in aliens though. Of course, I may be wrong about that.

 

[Xander]

especially the Rational and Thinker types, to believe that all religion is hokum designed to clutter their brains with arcane superstition.

That's a valid criticism in my case. I'll explain later in this post the thoughts this lot of replies produced.

Cool topic. I've been thinking about this lately, and while I'm still unsure of my own thoughts on the matter, am happy to share a few musings.

Thanks. This kind of thing of faith, spirituality and superstition has been on my mind for years but this is kind of the first time it's starting to make sense.

However, to me the difference is one of faith. Faith is not the denial or repression of doubts, but it is a centered act of the whole personality affirmation of the ultimacy of it's ultimate concern (ie, whatever is God to you) in spite of doubt. It is a risk of the whole self that requires courage. Yes, there are good reasons for belief in God. But there are also reasons (perhaps good ones) for disbelief. Faith transcends all of that. This sounds mysterious. Faith is mysterious. "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh and whither it goeth: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8) So, yeah, I have trouble describing faith, but to move on.

It's not denial that's confusing me... again I'll explain further down.

I gave up trying to disprove faith many years ago. Partially because I realised that I was harassing my mate Dom for no reason other than religion was giving me the willies.

Ghosts and such phenomena can't really be disproven. You can disprove individual instances, but not the possibility, no matter what your philosophic outlook is, although they may seem more or less likely to you depending on your frame of reference. I don't think it needs to be the deciding factor when it comes to matters of faith in a deity. In fact, I think it may be almost irrelevant.

To me though faith in things with no proof that they do exist is confusing and contradictory to my nature. I guess that's the prime reason why I have difficulty with faith.

Helen makes a good point about faith. It's something you believe in without having physically seen. Like Lewis said, if someone were to tell you there was a tiger next door, you might feel fear or anxiety. If someone were to tell you there was a ghost next door, you wouldn't feel the same way you would about a tiger, because a tiger is something fully grounded in this world and something you've seen. A ghost is not. You don't have to believe in something for it to exist or exert a force on you. I believe Lewis called that not-fear-but-not-pleasant feeling, the numinous, an unbidden response to the sacred.

See now my thinking is that if I choose to believe in a God then why do I not believe in the bogeyman? Why do I not believe in father Christmas or the tooth fairy? Do I not believe in these things because there are not large groups of people who also believe in it? That to me is irrelevant. Of course I am interested in what other's believe. After all to ignore what others think is only to invite oversight and miscalculation but I am not the type of person who surrenders willingly my own evaluation for someone elses.

I'm of the belief that we are in the middle of a war between good and evil; however I find love is my greatest weapon - not hate.

But I'm an NT. Hate is my armour You're snubbing my armour!!

I do agree about the weapon choice though.

I am a person of faith. I believe the Bible is true. I believe there is a benevolent God who is stronger than the evil devil. I believe there are angels and demons. I believe in Heaven and Hell. I believe every human has an eternal soul. I believe ghosts are demons taking the form of a dead human. I don't believe in aliens though. Of course, I may be wrong about that.

I see. Your faith is defined and closed in a way which prevents the ideas of aliens (sticking with the present example) being particularly possible. The Bible defines what is and what is not possible (though not a set of hard rules as I think you'd agree). It constitutes kind of a guide which is cool. I was always the one to argue with the books. I guess it's the whole my rational > anyone else's.

I'd like to thanks you guys for responding btw. I realise that this involves things close to your heart and I'm grateful that you chose to share.

The thinking which persists in me is if I let go of rationality to accept something like faith then what stops me letting go of it for more things? Also if it is my choice to desert my normal approach of logical process and critical thinking then is it all real? AM I creating the faith within myself by "making space"? Am I holing out an area by taking my rationality and criticism out of it to give faith a chance to bloom?

It's been concerning me that I don't have any faith. None whatsoever. But still I have yet to find that spark that seems to find others so easily.

 

[INTJMom]

Faith really isn't that easy to find, so you don't have to be so hard on yourself.
We're at the mercy of God really - a benevolent God, thankfully.
The Bible says faith is a free gift from God. There's no other way to get it.
I think it has to start with a bit of humility on our parts - which is hard.

 

[Domino]

That's a valid criticism in my case. I'll explain later in this post the thoughts this lot of replies produced.

Thanks. This kind of thing of faith, spirituality and superstition has been on my mind for years but this is kind of the first time it's starting to make sense.

It's not denial that's confusing me... again I'll explain further down.

I gave up trying to disprove faith many years ago. Partially because I realised that I was harassing my mate Dom for no reason other than religion was giving me the willies.

To me though faith in things with no proof that they do exist is confusing and contradictory to my nature. I guess that's the prime reason why I have difficulty with faith.

See now my thinking is that if I choose to believe in a God then why do I not believe in the bogeyman? Why do I not believe in father Christmas or the tooth fairy? Do I not believe in these things because there are not large groups of people who also believe in it? That to me is irrelevant. Of course I am interested in what other's believe. After all to ignore what others think is only to invite oversight and miscalculation but I am not the type of person who surrenders willingly my own evaluation for someone elses.

But I'm an NT. Hate is my armour You're snubbing my armour!!

I do agree about the weapon choice though.

I see. Your faith is defined and closed in a way which prevents the ideas of aliens (sticking with the present example) being particularly possible. The Bible defines what is and what is not possible (though not a set of hard rules as I think you'd agree). It constitutes kind of a guide which is cool. I was always the one to argue with the books. I guess it's the whole my rational > anyone else's.

I'd like to thanks you guys for responding btw. I realise that this involves things close to your heart and I'm grateful that you chose to share.

The thinking which persists in me is if I let go of rationality to accept something like faith then what stops me letting go of it for more things? Also if it is my choice to desert my normal approach of logical process and critical thinking then is it all real? AM I creating the faith within myself by "making space"? Am I holing out an area by taking my rationality and criticism out of it to give faith a chance to bloom?

It's been concerning me that I don't have any faith. None whatsoever. But still I have yet to find that spark that seems to find others so easily.

We're open to you on this. No sincere question will pass unanswered to the best of the ability of those here. I admire your willingness to be vulnerable on this matter.

 

[Sandy]

My story of faith...

.

 

[Sandy]

Yes, I am in my right mind...

.

 

[miss fortune]

I kind of draw the line after "there's something up there that probably wants to smite me"- which kind of roughly translates to God! Other than that I don't beleive in the Devil, or Angels or anything else of the sort. Luck on the other hand... I totally beleive in good or bad luck! I have lucky charms and refuse to walk under ladders and throw salt over my left shoulder (when I figure out which of the two is left) and such! I don't make much sense sometimes...

 

[Xander]

INTJMom,
I think I understand but I'm not sure. Humble to what? Humble in general or humble before something?

PinkPiranha,
Thanks. I always worry about approaching these kinds of topics as I tend to come across as snubbing religion and such where as it just doesn't make sense to me and that's all I try and illustrate. I guess that's a similar thing but it's not meant to be.

Sandy,
You know it really doesn't phase me, those stories you told. I was kinda thinking when reading that there had to be someone who had actually seen or heard or whatever for the stories to persist.

Personally I'm logically open to the idea of aliens... it's just the whole deity level thing that causes me trouble. Brain goes..."how?"

Whatever,
I, rather strangely, though not believing in a God on the basis of it not fitting into my thinking I do believe in karma. Well karma in terms of nice things happen to nice people and such. I think it's more noting patterns and trying to put a name to it rather than just accepting that it's a pattern which just happened to occur.

I dunno somedays science seems to explain just about everything and then the next day there's just one little loose end which seems to unravel the whole damn tapestry and I'm left wondering if there is something beyond science and knowledge which makes sense of the tapestry including the loose threads.

 

[Xander]

Further thinking after a cup of coffee...

Validation.
I guess that part of this inquiry is an attempt to gain validation for the way I think. By looking for some exterior thing or reasoning which makes sense of things. I guess that's not really fair to then ask those who have faith to extend some form of reasoning, some straw to grasp.

Outside looking in.
One thing that has occurred to me is that religion has never been a part of my life nor upbringing. Sure I've been to church with my mother, father and sister but none of them had any faith in what was going on it was more like we are here doing this because we're supposed to be. that never did work for me as I'm not the kind of person who can do stuff unless it makes sense to do so (that kinda gives a person a bad reputation as a party pooper apparently).

Again it's not really fair to ask others to reason out their faith or religion to suit my inquisitive mind.

However.
This still does leave me kind of cold. Religion and faith seem to be some kind of great group hug but one that makes little sense to me past some kind of displacement theory which doesn't seem to measure up against those I know with faith. Their not exactly the kind to get duped in such a manner and yet I can see no reasoning beyond that.

Anyhow I'll stop pestering people now. I guess this is one of those questions which will pursue me but it's hardly fair when pursued to put others in the firing line.

 

[Wizardgir1]

I am a person of faith. I believe the Bible is true. I believe there is a benevolent God who is stronger than the evil devil. I believe there are angels and demons. I believe in Heaven and Hell. I believe every human has an eternal soul. I believe ghosts are demons taking the form of a dead human. I don't believe in aliens though. Of course, I may be wrong about that.

Well said. Nuff said. ...Me too.

 

[Totenkindly]

...Having said that, I've found some help in reading the Catholic mystics, but still, I feel as if I'm really a looney and I just don't know it yet?? I think modern society, which is supremely humanistic (regardless of all that "in God we trust" stuff), compels most people, especially the Rational and Thinker types, to believe that all religion is hokum designed to clutter their brains with arcane superstition. Then again, C. S. Lewis was hardly a crackpot, was he?

Lewis was not a crackpot, but he was definitely someone who, once he decided a particular stance was true, used his Reason to support it as cogently as possible rather than the other way around.

His conversion was not really inevitable (as it is for someone who starts with evidence first), it was simply a choice to believe because he felt the patterns converged most acceptably along the lines of Christianity. This is more an inductive argument than a deductive one. And then he spent the rest of his life clarifying the internal theology as well as explaining life in view of the patterns of Christianity.

(It is still sort of funny though to see what a poster child he has become for evangelicalism, when Lewis' views on hell and the afterlife and other Christian doctrines do not necessarily mesh along conservative Christian lines...)

However, to me the difference is one of faith. Faith is not the denial or repression of doubts, but it is a centered act of the whole personality affirmation of the ultimacy of it's ultimate concern (ie, whatever is God to you) in spite of doubt. It is a risk of the whole self that requires courage...

I like that.

 

[Totenkindly]

I guess that part of this inquiry is an attempt to gain validation for the way I think. By looking for some exterior thing or reasoning which makes sense of things. I guess that's not really fair to then ask those who have faith to extend some form of reasoning, some straw to grasp.

I think Ti people can [are not required to, but CAN] have large "faith" issues. Remember when Thomson talked about Ti people, and how the function works? The one example she gave was of baseball, and someone responding to the system as it played out ... so the ball is hit, and all the men in the field shift position as the ball travels, and the player has to decide whether to run to the next base. Ti is deriving and responding to truth in the world around oneself, and everything is being taken into account, and the Ti person is flexing to it in real-time.

ISTPs seem to have more trouble with faith than INTPs, due to the S/N factor (S's tend to focus on only what can be shown, N's will interpolate and speculate based on what seems "reasonable" based on prior patterns... but note that even these patterns have been drawn from life experience!)

A lot of faith is assumption. You are handed prior explanations for the world, rather than necessarily deriving them yourself. What I think I really want to say is that, for the Ti person, the power of observation and the intellect to piece the information together is the "assumed authority" --whereas in religion, the Bible (or another holy book) is the authority, or a particular leader is the authority, and so on. Most religion promotes a different ultimate authority than what the Ti naturally uses. [For an Fi person, the outer world plus their own personal values are the authority.]

So you can definitely develop faith over time, but as an INTP it will be based on what you think is most reasonable, depending on your life experiences and observations. You will probably never be able to just buy into a particular book, or leader, or faith system that "predetermines the answers" until you have the personal life experience that validates that system.

As INTJMom says, you simply have to be humble enough to accept the evidence once it arrives (wherever it takes you), rather than fighting it. There is a tendency to become calcified in past beliefs regardless of new information, and humble people do not permit themselves to do that.

One thing that has occurred to me is that religion has never been a part of my life nor upbringing. Sure I've been to church with my mother, father and sister but none of them had any faith in what was going on it was more like we are here doing this because we're supposed to be. that never did work for me as I'm not the kind of person who can do stuff unless it makes sense to do so (that kinda gives a person a bad reputation as a party pooper apparently).

See? The life experience (your basis for deriving truth) did not yet support what you were being told to believe. So you still believe what you've experienced (or not experienced), rather than a predetermined doctrine.

Again it's not really fair to ask others to reason out their faith or religion to suit my inquisitive mind.

Oh, it's fair to ask. (And you should.)

It's just not fair to demand. Let other people decide how much they will invest in your search.

This still does leave me kind of cold. Religion and faith seem to be some kind of great group hug but one that makes little sense to me past some kind of displacement theory which doesn't seem to measure up against those I know with faith. Their not exactly the kind to get duped in such a manner and yet I can see no reasoning beyond that.

That is the mystery, isn't it?

I think that is why I call myself an agnostic theist right now. Intellectually, the impersonal proof is lacking... but I do see a common pattern of behavior and belief that I would deem healthy and good and mature, and it aligns with my idea of what God would be like. I just cannot give much lip service to standard religious authority or specific doctrine...

 

[INTJMom]

INTJMom,
I think I understand but I'm not sure. Humble to what? Humble in general or humble before something?...

Well, I guess I meant humble before God. When I imagine myself actually in His presence, it's an overwhelming awesome feeling. He's Holy, and I am not, yet He is willing to forgive me.
If I am unwilling to admit I need forgiveness, I am having a problem with being humble.

 

[Domino]

Lewis was not a crackpot, but he was definitely someone who, once he decided a particular stance was true, used his Reason to support it as cogently as possible rather than the other way around.

Seriously, who *doesn't* do that? And I'm not talking about a laboratory environment. I've personally known non-scientific people to reject religion wholesale while analytic/logic-based types locked onto a mystery. I think Lewis is a fine example of someone who stepped away from atheism into a realm of belief that defied logic and STILL managed to make some sense of it, as much sense as ANY faith can make. There are some things that cannot be attacked in a purely scientific fashion. The human soul (read: the thing that gives us "consciousness" as stated by every scientific book I've ever read on the subject) is one such mystery. It can't be measured or even located. But it's there.

His conversion was not really inevitable (as it is for someone who starts with evidence first), it was simply a choice to believe because he felt the patterns converged most acceptably along the lines of Christianity. This is more an inductive argument than a deductive one. And then he spent the rest of his life clarifying the internal theology as well as explaining life in view of the patterns of Christianity.

Do you ever learn or fully know anything all at once? Conversion for the Muslims is a lifetime thing, not a one time stroke of "I'm saved!" They live out their faith on a day to day basis. I think that's a marvelous idea.

(It is still sort of funny though to see what a poster child he has become for evangelicalism, when Lewis' views on hell and the afterlife and other Christian doctrines do not necessarily mesh along conservative Christian lines...)

I guess I wouldn't know about conservative Christianity because that's not how I came to God nor is it how I'm been compelled to live, but I can see why people would find a lot of comfort and enlightenment in what he said. He had a way of stripping all of the maudlin "believe because I told you to" stuff that I personally cannot and will not tolerate. I'd say Clive meshes pretty well actually, now that I think of it. Nobody in the Bible was perfect, as we all know. Murderers, thieves, low lifes, heretics, you name it. Nothing conservative about it.

I will concede this point though: I don't like anything of value that gets assimilated into some big mass of "you can like this because we say this is safe".

 

[JAVO]

The best way I can describe my experience with the faith and reason dichotomy is that reason tells me it is possible that something outside of the physical universe may exist, but this cannot be proven or disproven. If it does exist, I should not assume my current paradigm of the physical universe applies to the spiritual dimension. My intuition is then willing to explore the reasonable possibilities.