Are you wary of Fe?

[violet_crown]

That might be chilling to an ENTJ, who are often bad at hiding their real motivations.

We're basic creatures: an ENTJ wants to climb a tree, the says "I want to climb the tree", then climbs the tree.

An ENFJ sitting amongst her fabulous group of friends wants to climb a tree. She spends the next half hour talking about how wonderful and nobel tree-climbing is and all the health benefits of tree climbing. Her friends, inspired, all go ahead and climb the tree, have a great time, come back and find the ENFJ sitting where they left. When they ask the ENFJ why she didnt climb the tree, she'll roll her eyes and say "Guys, just because I said that tree climbing was interesting didn't mean we should actually do it. How vulgar." At which point all the friends of the ENFJ feel silly because they didnt know that themselves. Sillier, in fact than the ENFJ herself, who didn't have it in her to climb the tree at all.

 

[sculpting]

^ For you, I should add I would just be careful these are not misinterpreted in a romantic way.

Well I do love the ladies....

 

[sculpting]

We're basic creatures: an ENTJ wants to climb a tree, the says "I want to climb the tree", then climbs the tree.

An ENFJ sitting amongst her fabulous group of friends wants to climb a tree. She spends the next half hour talking about how wonderful and nobel tree-climbing is and all the health benefits of tree climbing. Her friends, inspired, all go ahead and climb the tree, have a great time, come back and find the ENFJ sitting where they left. When they ask the ENFJ why she didnt climb the tree, she'll roll her eyes and say "Guys, just because I said that tree climbing was interesting didn't mean we should actually do it. How vulgar." At which point all the friends of the ENFJ feel silly because they didnt know that themselves. Sillier, in fact than the ENFJ herself, who didn't have it in her to climb the tree at all.

I think the entj conquers the tree Dominant Te is so beautiful.

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

Man some of the things said about Fe in this thread are puzzling to me. Take this example:

Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.

Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.

Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

Fe power at its most subversive

Most leaders (especially in times past) are thinkers. If what you are describing here is technically Fe, then it is not Fe as used by xxFJ types. For xxFJ types the various gestures they do are expressions of their values. If anything what you are describing is an attempt to manipulate the xxFJ types since they are the most likely to respond to social pressures.

 

[sculpting]

You guys would be proud of me! I think I am learning the ways of Fe. I sat through a whole Fe gushy meeting today and actually was appreciative of how the different folks were using it. I am learning so much.

This seems beneficial so here are a few more scenarios:

One about tertiary Fe:
An ESTP girl that I am close friends with says she cares about people very much and that typically everytime she does something she thinks about how it will effect those around her before she does it. Yet she has a fiance in canada, a boy in mexico, a boy in california, a boy in colorado and a boy in austin. Initially she will tell them it is not exclusive, however they will all eventually want to be exclusive. After some pressure she just tells them they are-even though she has a harem. She says "I care about all of them, but it only makes them unhappy if I tell the truth so I just don't after they complain a bit, and now they are all happy"

Fi says lies are kinda evil and that she is really hurting these guys emo wise. My guess is that with her Fe she really does care, but that maintaining social harmony and happiness makes telling the lies easier. Am I correct on this one? How would a (granted immature) tert Fe justify this?

 

[sculpting]

One more scenario:

I recently was part of about a 200 person team that completed a major project. At the end of the project the subject of awards came up.

I wanted to give five awards to the folks who killed themselves for the project.
My ENTP best friend wanted to give out thirty awards as not to leave a whole bunch of other people out so we got in an Fe-Te war.

Our ISFJ Marcom person wanted to give out 100 awards.

Our ESFJ marcom person wanted everyone on the team to get awards-all 200 of them.

I keep running into this on issues of recognition/awards. Fe seems to think entire groups should get recognized and not individuals, where folks with Te think you are diluting the award when everyone gets one.

Is this an Fe theme? If so, why should everyone get one?

 

[onemoretime]

Man some of the things said about Fe in this thread are puzzling to me. Take this example:



Most leaders (especially in times past) are thinkers. If what you are describing here is technically Fe, then it is not Fe as used by xxFJ types. For xxFJ types the various gestures they do are expressions of their values. If anything what you are describing is an attempt to manipulate the xxFJ types since they are the most likely to respond to social pressures.

Just because you're not primarily Fe doesn't mean you can't exert Fe power. Look at all the obligatory speech there - you're obliged to defend your country against it's enemies. Dissenters are violating their sacred obligation to their country. That's very Fe

 

[Ism]

One more scenario:

I recently was part of about a 200 person team that completed a major project. At the end of the project the subject of awards came up.

I wanted to give five awards to the folks who killed themselves for the project.
My ENTP best friend wanted to give out thirty awards as not to leave a whole bunch of other people out so we got in an Fe-Te war.

Our ISFJ Marcom person wanted to give out 100 awards.

Our ESFJ marcom person wanted everyone on the team to get awards-all 200 of them.

I keep running into this on issues of recognition/awards. Fe seems to think entire groups should get recognized and not individuals, where folks with Te think you are diluting the award when everyone gets one.

Is this an Fe theme? If so, why should everyone get one?

What was the project about, out of curiosity?

Only give out five! Make the rest aim towards that selective recognition.

 

[entropie]

I keep running into this on issues of recognition/awards. Fe seems to think entire groups should get recognized and not individuals, where folks with Te think you are diluting the award when everyone gets one.

Seems you have to decide for the first time in your life, what side to take ? the side of the Ones that really did accomplish something or the side of the Ones who say: everyone gave their best

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

One more scenario:

I recently was part of about a 200 person team that completed a major project. At the end of the project the subject of awards came up.

I wanted to give five awards to the folks who killed themselves for the project.
My ENTP best friend wanted to give out thirty awards as not to leave a whole bunch of other people out so we got in an Fe-Te war.

Our ISFJ Marcom person wanted to give out 100 awards.

Our ESFJ marcom person wanted everyone on the team to get awards-all 200 of them.

I keep running into this on issues of recognition/awards. Fe seems to think entire groups should get recognized and not individuals, where folks with Te think you are diluting the award when everyone gets one.

Is this an Fe theme? If so, why should everyone get one?

I don't think people should receive undeserved recognition unless there's some benefit to doing that.

Will it improve morale? People will sometimes work harder just because they were shown appreciation. I'll sometimes shine a light on someone with potential ... even when the potential is not fully realized. Then they start to grow.



But if they're just a bunch of lazy, apathetic, talentless people, I wouldn't give them anything.

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

You guys would be proud of me! I think I am learning the ways of Fe. I sat through a whole Fe gushy meeting today and actually was appreciative of how the different folks were using it. I am learning so much.

This seems beneficial so here are a few more scenarios:

One about tertiary Fe:
An ESTP girl that I am close friends with says she cares about people very much and that typically everytime she does something she thinks about how it will effect those around her before she does it. Yet she has a fiance in canada, a boy in mexico, a boy in california, a boy in colorado and a boy in austin. Initially she will tell them it is not exclusive, however they will all eventually want to be exclusive. After some pressure she just tells them they are-even though she has a harem. She says "I care about all of them, but it only makes them unhappy if I tell the truth so I just don't after they complain a bit, and now they are all happy"

Fi says lies are kinda evil and that she is really hurting these guys emo wise. My guess is that with her Fe she really does care, but that maintaining social harmony and happiness makes telling the lies easier. Am I correct on this one? How would a (granted immature) tert Fe justify this?

I wouldn't justify it. It's dishonest. If she wants a harem, she should dump them and keep looking until she finds men who are willing to be in one. If she can't find any, her tough luck.


And I think any type, with any functions, can find a way to make themselves feel better about lying to other people (or to themselves).

 

[nightning]

One more scenario:

I recently was part of about a 200 person team that completed a major project. At the end of the project the subject of awards came up.

I wanted to give five awards to the folks who killed themselves for the project.
My ENTP best friend wanted to give out thirty awards as not to leave a whole bunch of other people out so we got in an Fe-Te war.

Our ISFJ Marcom person wanted to give out 100 awards.

Our ESFJ marcom person wanted everyone on the team to get awards-all 200 of them.

I keep running into this on issues of recognition/awards. Fe seems to think entire groups should get recognized and not individuals, where folks with Te think you are diluting the award when everyone gets one.

Is this an Fe theme? If so, why should everyone get one?

*scratches head* I don't think you can purely attribute it to Fe.

Yes, I think everybody should get recognition for the work they've done. But the degree of recognition is dependent on how much they contributed to the end product.

I would have done the following:

Recap of project, what the team has accomplished.
Verbal brief recognition to everybody for a job well done.
Move onto special recognition/awards for selected few.
There's no point in handing more than 10 awards because long ceremony is boring. 5 is a better number.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Seems you have to decide for the first time in your life, what side to take ? the side of the Ones that really did accomplish something or the side of the Ones who say: everyone gave their best

Which is not necessarily true ...

 

[heart]

I have known her for years. I cannot experience her physiological response to pain. I do understand my own very well. What I see is a long term complaint of mild pain and an escalation of medications in an attempt to be totally pain free without an understanding that sometimes life is painful and you have to learn to live with that.

So you are the appointed judge and jury to decide how she should react to her own personal illness? You get to judge her for not being as *strong* as you believe yourself to be? How is this even Fi/Fe? I am not seeing the Fe in her behavior on this issue.

Since when was it only an Fe trait to complain when one feels sick or to relate the personal events of one's life to a friend?

It sounds more like misunderstanding between the two of you and compassion fatigue on your part, unrelated to any specific personality type.

Totally aside from the fact that I don't understand how you've been able to judge from the outside looking in that her pain is always mild....People are Individuals. They each have their own strong and weak points, their own individual breaking points.

For me, I can do nothing to relieve her pain. However to see her in what I perceive as pain makes me hurt for her. So then I feel guilt and more emo pain that there is nothing I can do to remedy her situation. I can supply condolences and love, but not correct the issue. My Fi emo pain increases cyclically.

Why are you required to feel pain and guilt? Does she really desire this or is it your own internal fear and distaste for illness and pain?

There's a book called But You Look So Good, you ought to read it.

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

Just because you're not primarily Fe doesn't mean you can't exert Fe power. Look at all the obligatory speech there - you're obliged to defend your country against it's enemies. Dissenters are violating their sacred obligation to their country. That's very Fe

I don't think this is quite right. You are referring to obligations. Duty is more the realm of Si than Fe. What you are saying does apply to SFJ's (and STJ's too). It doesn't really apply to NFJ types.

 

[PeaceBaby]

It sounds more like misunderstanding between the two of you and compassion fatigue on your part, unrelated to any specific personality type.

This ^ well said heart.

 

[Fiver]

For those interested, the award methodology that has the most positive impact on morale and effective, productive achievment of organizational goals is to create a 'winner's circle' that everyone has an opportunity to achieve.

If you consistently limit awards to a certain number +/-, then people will look around, figure out who is killing themselves and let the obvious award contenders do everything. Just my two cents.

 

[proteanmix]

For those interested, the award methodology that has the most positive impact on morale and effective, productive achievment of organizational goals is to create a 'winner's circle' that everyone has an opportunity to achieve.

If you consistently limit awards to a certain number +/-, then people will look around, figure out who is killing themselves and let the obvious award contenders do everything. Just my two cents.

Yep, at work I call them the Department Mules, Beasts of Burden. Everyone knows they can count on them and they end up getting all the work.

 

[onemoretime]

I don't think this is quite right. You are referring to obligations. Duty is more the realm of Si than Fe. What you are saying does apply to SFJ's (and STJ's too). It doesn't really apply to NFJ types.

Duty is merely the obligation one has to a higher group. Duty as far as "it has to be done" is certainly the realm of SJs, but patriotism/nationalism is very much a Fe situation - taking the tribal instinct (extraverted feeling) and expanding it to a nation-state.

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

Duty is merely the obligation one has to a higher group. Duty as far as "it has to be done" is certainly the realm of SJs, but patriotism/nationalism is very much a Fe situation - taking the tribal instinct (extraverted feeling) and expanding it to a nation-state.

No that's still Si. Have you ever heard the term "Call of Duty"? That is what duty is all about. Nationalism is all about Si.