Are you wary of Fe?

[Amargith]

Udog, can you put that into concrete terms and show how it works with an example? That way we can get a better feel for it

 

[proteanmix]

Okay, here are my thoughts. As I see it, Fi and Fe process values in a completely different order:

Fi:
1. Internalizes and processes
2. Extroverts to test - highest vulnerability

Fe
1. Extroverts and processes
2. Internalizes to test - highest vulnerability

The basic source of misunderstanding is that when Fi/Fe align (i.e. both extroverting), they are at completely different stages of processing. The strength of one function is the weakness of another, so there's always one party that feels highly vulnerable and off center.

I'll give it a shot for Fe.

You know how people always say that they can't tell the sincerity of a Fe because it seems to always put on a happy face and pretend like everything is OK?

I think someone touched upon this in the two recent ENFJ threads but very often a Fe user, but I will specifically keep it to a Fe-dom and more specifically me, will think their personal feelings are irrelevant, not that they don't matter but their is less significance. The world will continue to turn and people will move on. There is the thought that in the grand scheme of things you are meaningless, a grain of sand on a beach with trillions of other grains of sand. What is your life but a vapor? There is, I believe, a very strong streak of fatalism and nihilism within many ExFJs (a negative manifestation of inferior Ti). This does not mean Fe-doms don't have any sense of self-worth or self-esteem, or confidence. Personally I think my self-worth and confidence but I also try to keep myself humble.

I keep listening to that The Fray song where he says just kind of out of nowhere "In the end, everyone ends up alone." I think that concept when paired with a Fe-dom places less significance on themselves personally and moves that sense of significance into the collective. Collectively, I have meaning when I am joined to many other people. One grain of sand may mean nothing, but many grains of sand are powerful, many molecules of water make powerful oceans. On an abstract level this is a merging that occurs with others to find the your own personal significance.

People often call this behavior codependent. I think they miss the point when they say that. I feel like I am extension humanity in general, I acknowledge and encourage my place and part in humanity and on a closer level my community.

So back to the beginning you can, for example, have an ExFJ who may be having a personal tribulation, but thinks to them self, who am I to bring other people down? <insert fake happy smile>. But they're also just as likely to think if I'm down everyone should be down too. It really depends on which way the particular Fe-dom aims it. But I suppose some people sense the keeping up appearances and instantly writes off the ExFJ as fake. Or they may think the ExFJ who is striking out is an ill-tempered harpy. I believe most people stop there. And I don't necessarily blame them, I mean people decide what they want to take on and what they don't. Some people have the mindset of "here are tissues for your issues now get back to work." "That's your problem, deal with it." And maybe on a certain level, they're right. And sometimes you don't want people digging into your personal life and you purposely send out smoke and mirrors to throw them off. Or sometimes you have the type of person who makes their issues, everybody's issues. I can't really say and as I've already stated in the thread if I notice such a thing about a person I try to give them the impression that I'm available if they want to talk but I don't press any further. You can't play counselor to everyone.

That's all I got for now, I'll think of more later.

 

[iwakar]

...a Fe-dom and more specifically me, will think their personal feelings are irrelevant, not that they don't matter but their is less significance. The world will continue to turn and people will move on. There is the thought that in the grand scheme of things you are meaningless, a grain of sand on a beach with trillions of other grains of sand. What is your life but a vapor? There is, I believe, a very strong streak of fatalism and nihilism within many ExFJs (a negative manifestation of inferior Ti). This does not mean Fe-doms don't have any sense of self-worth or self-esteem, or confidence. Personally I think my self-worth and confidence but I also try to keep myself humble...

Bingo. This works cause I see this applying to ALL Fe-Users. ESTP, ENTP, INFJ, ENFJ and so on etc.

 

[Amargith]

I can appreciate what you said about not dragging everyone down, and even relate to it. I think many Fi-users do that too, as many of us believe in not burdening others and dampening the spirits of everyone there. Don't think anyone can see that as wrong. Maybe the way we project that though, give a problem?

Ok, I want to give you an example of someone I work with and respect greatly. She's ESFJ and head secretary. I help her out so I'm not as skilled at the job as she is. She has the tendency to call me every time I'm there to check if everything is running smoothly..which I appreciated in the beginning, but now that I'm not new to the job anymore feels a bit belitteling. I realize she means well. I also notice that she is sometimes a bit annoyed at my way of organizing stuff and handling things. I do follow her system but I have other things I pay more attention to, I guess. She doesn't tell me this though, but it shows through in the way she formulates stuff and gently tries to redirect me to her way of doing things. It...irritates me. Feels like I'm 5 years old. And it makes me paranoid. Since she's not owning up to it to me, I'm fearing she might be complaining to my collegues and my boss instead as she's bound to feel the need to vent at some point and I cannot blame her. I've told her repeatedly not to worry and just let me know if she wants something specifically done differently, as it is her system and I'm willing to follow it and keep it in order, which she does do, but my general approach seems to be something she..has trouble with, which is something I cannot change, nor do I know how to bring this up as she tends to deny having a problem with the way I do things.

Can you walk me through her thought process and how I best handle her Fe?

 

[jenocyde]

Amar, it seems like she's trying to be kind by gently guiding you rather than coming out and saying something negative.

As far as Fi, I get the burdened feeling quite a bit - like I have to be responsible for your feelings or something. Like it's my fault. Or even worse, that you are the only person in the whole world who could ever feel so much pain. I hear this so much form ENFPs "it hurts so much, you have no idea..." I've learned to overlook it, but damn, it used to irritate me.

 

[nightning]

I can appreciate what you said about not dragging everyone down, and even relate to it. I think many Fi-users do that too, as many of us believe in not burdening others and dampening the spirits of everyone there. Don't think anyone can see that as wrong. Maybe the way we project that though, give a problem?

Ok, I want to give you an example of someone I work with and respect greatly. She's ESFJ and head secretary. I help her out so I'm not as skilled at the job as she is. She has the tendency to call me every time I'm there to check if everything is running smoothly..which I appreciated in the beginning, but now that I'm not new to the job anymore feels a bit belitteling. I realize she means well. I also notice that she is sometimes a bit annoyed at my way of organizing stuff and handling things. I do follow her system but I have other things I pay more attention to, I guess. She doesn't tell me this though, but it shows through in the way she formulates stuff and gently tries to redirect me to her way of doing things. It...irritates me. Feels like I'm 5 years old. And it makes me paranoid. Since she's not owning up to it to me, I'm fearing she might be complaining to my collegues and my boss instead as she's bound to feel the need to vent at some point and I cannot blame her. I've told her repeatedly not to worry and just let me know if she wants something specifically done differently, as it is her system and I'm willing to follow it and keep it in order, which she does do, but my general approach seems to be something she..has trouble with, which is something I cannot change, nor do I know how to bring this up as she tends to deny having a problem with the way I do things.

Can you walk me through her thought process and how I best handle her Fe?

Some ESFJ bosses have a tendency to micromanage. This likely isn't strictly an Fe problem but Si + Fe... I suppose you can try handing her a list of things you will be doing just to "remind her again that you're on track" or doing it verbally. Actually the Fe way of doing things is just to internalize the process so you ended up automatically saying the stuff. Adapting to their needs sort of thing, but that's probably not natural for Fi to do.

 

[Amargith]

Amar, it seems like she's trying to be kind by gently guiding you rather than coming out and saying something negative.

As far as Fi, I get the burdened feeling quite a bit - like I have to be responsible for your feelings or something. Like it's my fault. Or even worse, that you are the only person in the whole world who could ever feel so much pain. I hear this so much form ENFPs "it hurts so much, you have no idea..." I've learned to overlook it, but damn, it used to irritate me.

True, some of us aren't able to contain it, if it gets too bad and we're not able to isolate ourselves. Best to give us a break at that point and let us digest it all, so we have a grip again. I personally, if I feel a mood like that coming up, try to sever all emotional ties with people around me, and if at all possible, go somewhere where I can be alone, and if not, fade into the background. But that's kind of hard to do when you're in the middle of a conversation, debate of social function, unfortunately.

When I was younger, I also didn't realize that not everyone experienced this the same way, meaning that you didn't sever emotional connections, instead you used them to 'communicate' your pain so they'd understand and back off or even better, comfort you. It also doesn't occur to you that others cannot perceive your emotions before you go intense on them, as..well we tend to pick up on emotions all the time. Surely others do the same, is what you believe at that point, so why would they not understand? Unfortunately, that backfires bigtime as people just don't know what to do with that kind of intensity. I realize it looks childish, and I'm not saying anyone else should be responsible for their pain except for the person themselves, but it's comparable to going supernova and not being able to control your body anymore. You learn though, with age

 

[iwakar]

Amar, it seems like she's trying to be kind by gently guiding you rather than coming out and saying something negative.

As far as Fi, I get the burdened feeling quite a bit - like I have to be responsible for your feelings or something. Like it's my fault. Or even worse, that you are the only person in the whole world who could ever feel so much pain. I hear this so much form ENFPs "it hurts so much, you have no idea..." I've learned to overlook it, but damn, it used to irritate me.

IME, one of Fi's greatest sins is that it tends to monopolize suffering; Fe's is that it can inflict it.

 

[sculpting]

True, some of us aren't able to contain it, if it gets too bad and we're not able to isolate ourselves. Best to give us a break at that point and let us digest it all, so we have a grip again. I personally, if I feel a mood like that coming up, try to sever all emotional ties with people around me, and if at all possible, go somewhere where I can be alone, and if not, fade into the background. But that's kind of hard to do when you're in the middle of a conversation, debate of social function, unfortunately.

When I was younger, I also didn't realize that not everyone experienced this the same way, meaning that you didn't sever emotional connections, instead you used them to 'communicate' your pain so they'd understand and back off or even better, comfort you. It also doesn't occur to you that others cannot perceive your emotions before you go intense on them, as..well we tend to pick up on emotions all the time. Surely others do the same, is what you believe at that point, so why would they not understand? Unfortunately, that backfires bigtime as people just don't know what to do with that kind of intensity. I realize it looks childish, and I'm not saying anyone else should be responsible for their pain except for the person themselves, but it's comparable to going supernova and not being able to control your body anymore. You learn though, with age

If left with our pain we can try to do as amar suggests-isolation-we can sort of morph into the worst INFJ ever but I dont think this is healthy. The Fi circles back upon itself and can amplify. Instead I dump that shit out-like puking after way too much to drink. You feel so much better afterwards once it is out of your brain.

Why? I think Fi really is a mirror. I-incorrectly-assume others have the same mirror. I project my pain-you dont respond-I project more pain-you still dont respond-I then vocalize my pain-you still dont respond-I explode emotionally. I have to keep turning up the volume because you are not "hearing" what I am projecting.

I am going totry creating several example threads so come play along if you would like down in NF land. It will allow isolation of each item.

 

[Amargith]

IME, one of Fi's greatest sins is that it tends to monopolize suffering; Fe's is that it can inflict it.

I think this is a good time to address the issue directly linked to this. Fi tends to view things through it's own eyes. That *looks* like monopolization and self-centeredness, however it is certainly not intended that way. We tend to bond by sharing experiences and relating. And those experiences tend to be personal, as that's how we operate, from within.

One of the things I actually learned on this forum, because you get a chance to go back and edit (and I still sometimes forget and have to go edit), is adding one little paragraph to my posts. You see, when I relate to something, I share something personal of mine, to show that I've been there, that I understand and possibly, what I did. This is not meant for attention-whoring purposes, it is genuinly meant as a means to relate and form a bond with the person in pain and show that they are not alone.

Unfortunately, it doesn't always come off that way. What I try to do nowadays, is add after my personal story a little parargraph as to how it actually is relevant to the original topic and highlight the similarities, as well as get the topic back on track as such and the limelight back to the person I was relating to. It somehow comes off a lot less selfish to do it that way apparently, as you indicate that it's not a tangent and you are still in fact commenting on the main issue, and not just drawing attention to yourself and how much pain you had to endure in your ordeal. I used to assume this was self-evident, but the miscommunications in this area have led me to no longer assume that as such.

 

[Amargith]

If left with our pain we can try to do as amar suggests-isolation-we can sort of morph into the worst INFJ ever but I dont think this is healthy. The Fi circles back upon itself and can amplify. Instead I dump that shit out-like puking after way too much to drink. You feel so much better afterwards once it is out of your brain.

Why? I think Fi really is a mirror. I-incorrectly-assume others have the same mirror. I project my pain-you dont respond-I project more pain-you still dont respond-I then vocalize my pain-you still dont respond-I explode emotionally. I have to keep turning up the volume because you are not "hearing" what I am projecting.

I am going totry creating several example threads so come play along if you would like down in NF land. It will allow isolation of each item.

You're quite right, especially in a debate or heated argument we overload and mirror back (and amplify!) what we get thrown at us, as we are unable to contain all the emotions, both those tossed at us and our own.

 

[iwakar]

I think this is a good time to address the issue directly linked to this. Fi tends to view things through it's own eyes. That *looks* like monopolization and self-centeredness, however it is certainly not intended that way. We tend to bond by sharing experiences and relating. And those experiences tend to be personal, as that's how we operate, from within.

One of the things I actually learned on this forum, because you get a chance to go back and edit (and I still sometimes forget and have to go edit), is adding one little paragraph to my posts. You see, when I relate to something, I share something personal of mine, to show that I've been there, that I understand and possibly, what I did. This is not meant for attention-whoring purposes, it is genuinly meant as a means to relate and form a bond with the person in pain and show that they are not alone.

Unfortunately, it doesn't always come off that way. What I try to do nowadays, is add after my personal story a little parargraph as to how it actually is relevant to the original topic and highlight the similarities, as well as get the topic back on track as such and the limelight back to the person I was relating to. It somehow comes off a lot less selfish to do it that way apparently, as you indicate that it's not a tangent and you are still in fact commenting on the main issue, and not just drawing attention to yourself and how much pain you had to endure in your ordeal.

Personal relation is not what I'm referring to. I do the same thing.

I'm referring to negative Fi-users making decisions and choosing courses of actions based on the premise that "no one suffers like I do."

 

[Amargith]

Some ESFJ bosses have a tendency to micromanage. This likely isn't strictly an Fe problem but Si + Fe... I suppose you can try handing her a list of things you will be doing just to "remind her again that you're on track" or doing it verbally. Actually the Fe way of doing things is just to internalize the process so you ended up automatically saying the stuff. Adapting to their needs sort of thing, but that's probably not natural for Fi to do.

Problem is that she already gives me 'lists' to keep tabs on me and she's not even supposed to be my boss, just my collegue who just happens to have seniority. I respect her claim and her vast knowledge as I'm nowhere near her level, but it does aggrevate me on occasion, I have to admit. I cannot help but feel that she considers me like a child she has to raise. But maybe that's just coz she means well? Or is she in fact annoyed at the fact that I am not as efficient in her eyes?

 

[Amargith]

Personal relation is not what I'm referring to. I do the same thing.

I'm referring to negative Fi-users making decisions and choosing courses of actions based on the premise that "no one suffers like I do."

Can you give a concrete example of those decisions or courses of actions?

 

[iwakar]

Can you give a concrete example of those decisions or courses of actions?

Potential thought process: My girlfriend only thinks she understands how I feel, but she doesn't. This pain is crippling and she should know that I can't be expected to do <blank>, while I feel this way. What happened was so wrong, I can't believe she doesn't agree. There's no point in explaining because she'll never understand.
A cold shoulder or passive-aggressive snark may occur during subsequent conversations and the relationship flounders into unproductive territory.

I assume you only wanted the negative Fi example? Or did you need a side-by-side comparison for the two?

 

[Amargith]

I just wanted to see what you were referring to, to see if it was a miscommunication or a flaw of the person themselves. It looks like a flaw or immaturity

 

[Udog]

Amar, I'm working on an example to illustrate my point from earlier.

Potential thought process: My girlfriend only thinks she understands how I feel, but she doesn't. This pain is crippling and she should know that I can't be expected to do <blank>, while I feel this way. What happened was so wrong, I can't believe she doesn't agree. There's no point in explaining because she'll never understand.
A cold shoulder or passive-aggressive snark may occur during subsequent conversations and the relationship flounders into unproductive territory.

I assume you only wanted the negative Fi example? Or did you need a side-by-side comparison for the two?

That's a great Fi Dom description. Since no one understands our pain, no one is qualified to offer advice.

I would be very interested in hearing an Fe example.

 

[iwakar]

I just wanted to see what you were referring to, to see if it was a miscommunication or a flaw of the person themselves. It looks like a flaw or immaturity

Absolutely. A mature Fi-user learns to harness their Fi rather than being shackled by it in turn.

 

[iwakar]

negative Fe-usage

My boyfriend needs to understand how I (or we) feel, but he doesn't so I'll show him. <Cue verbal lash out> "You need to stop being so selfish and think how what you're doing affects me and my family. We needed you to do <blank> and you didn't! That is so wrong. I cannot believe you didn't see that. This conversation is pointless because you don't understand."

Punishment for a failure to conform and perform ensues and may take a variety of forms.

 

[Amargith]

Is it possible that people who do this (bot Fe and Fi) never fully realize that others don't work the same way they do? I mean, I myself found it hard to see that, and in what way (MBTI rules on that). And in that event, is it possible to...cut them some slack without giving them what they want? I mean, not get aggrevated and be understanding that they still have to come to terms with this on their own?