[ENFJ] Are ENFJs the least "thoughtful" NF?

[proteanmix]

Also (this is the blunt part), when I first arrived here, I found the general air of the forum to be wholly ignorant, fearful and cynical about ENFJs, and that the merest mention of us elicited a cross and garlic lei-making frenzy. That saddened and annoyed me to no end, esp since this was supposed to be a place where people could get to know each other in an non-judgmental environment based on a scientific theory meant to elucidate our personal interactions, not YET ANOTHER blunt force object used to brain whomever didn't pass muster with a disgruntled few clustering up in one spot like barnacles.

Yes this was/is definitely the atmosphere here regarding Fe-doms and part of why I just removed my type from my profile. But what does hamming it up for people do? It's almost confirmation in a certain way, isn't it? Who are they that you need to do this for? What is the opinion of faceless computer people and what is their influence on your life? Maybe that's why I haven't felt a need to correct the perception in the way you've chosen to correct the misperception? Maybe the ways that individual ENFJs have gone about it on the forum depends on how strong what function is. Some have just left as a result and that's sad.

There's a thread happening right now about ENFJs and Manipulation and then to go and do the same thing and no one notices is curious to me. Or maybe they do notice and don't care, which makes all the mewling about Fe and how horrible it is moot to me. Because in reality, people love Fe. They eat it up. That's why I'm positive all this manipulative Fe complaining isn't coming from Fe-doms because proper working Fe is virtually undetectable.

But when it is coming from ExFJs is it somehow more vicious and insidious?

However. IMO, the rock-throwing still keeps occurring and most of it seems to come from near total lack of experience with our type. Obnoxious. Do you remember how the atmosphere changed when Jeffster arrived? We didn't have many ISFPs and he really stuck it out against huge Senser bias. Glad he did.

It also doesn't make sense to me that one person of a type (or generally) can lead to such a huge misunderstanding and one person being nice of the same type can erase all that. There is a more basic problem going on there.

I am feeling Dom and as I said, what "feels" like the logical solution comes from nowhere (Ne-Te?) but if I stop and think on it, then yes I can in my mind lay out the logic track, but doing so in a backtrack like method and I'd really shy away from talking about it, certainly wouldn't engage in it for fun. I do my own mental work that requires Te, a lot of history study and that wipes out my energy for such work, so on a message board I am not likely to do a lot of THINKING.

LOL, how do you tell people you don't like to think too hard without sounding like a complete airhead?!

 

[heart]

LOL, how do you tell people you don't like to think too hard without sounding like a complete airhead?!

People tend to think I am really smart or really stupid. There's no in between. But what you've said here is not exactly what I said. I do think, like I said I use Te a lot studying and things like that, but I don't have a lot of energy for justifying my thoughts to people all the time, so I don't tend to share my thoughts too much. I certainly won't do it for amusement and relaxation.

 

[Domino]

Yes this was/is definitely the atmosphere here regarding Fe-doms and part of why I just removed my type from my profile. But what does hamming it up for people do? It's almost confirmation in a certain way, isn't it? Who are they that you need to do this for? What is the opinion of faceless computer people and what is their influence on your life?

You make an excellent point. Knee-jerk Fe will attempt to bridge a gap or assume the harness on it's shoulders to make itself understood, so personal training in the area of restraint and prioritizing is important. Because you *know* it's gonna try, will you or nill you, and it'll be up to you to stop it or limit its involvement.

Maybe that's why I haven't felt a need to correct the perception in the way you've chosen to correct the misperception? Maybe the ways that individual ENFJs have gone about it on the forum depends on how strong what function is. Some have just left as a result and that's sad.

Ever see something wrong or even worse, not quite right, and feel this overpowering urge to correct it, like straightening a painting? I do that. Someone says something incredibly stupid or regressive around me, and I feel my body tense up resisting the urge to walk away or lose my patience. I know my ENTJ best friend struggles with wanting to correct inconsistencies too. They're like a rock in her shoe. I've had many discussions with her on "choose your battles", a discussion that cuts both ways. I understand what she's experiencing, but I can mitigate it with "I don't want to get involved in more drama".

Being sick has helped me to consider my own needs, and to try and reject anything/one who may be imposing on me. I hate guilt trips and will respond very negatively if one is aimed at me. I dig in my heels and won't budge. *visions of a person fruitlessly tugging on a mule's bridle*

There was a guy I knew, I couldn't avoid him b/c he was at work, and he thought it was funny to make racial comments about another guy in the garage, and I could immediately see the outright disgust and revulsion in not only myself but also my male ESFJ friend. ESFJ friend and I decided the guy was a lost cause and that we weren't going to chide him anymore for such displays, and that he was a waste of effort - you just know when someone's doing something to get attention or to be obtuse. ESFJ and I had little to do with him after that.

There's a thread happening right now about ENFJs and Manipulation and then to go and do the same thing and no one notices is curious to me. Or maybe they do notice and don't care, which makes all the mewling about Fe and how horrible it is moot to me. Because in reality, people love Fe. They eat it up. That's why I'm positive all this manipulative Fe complaining isn't coming from Fe-doms because proper working Fe is virtually undetectable.

I don't heed complaints of manipulation. To me, it's a cop-out to say "So and so manipulated me!" That person had your permission, dude. Get over it. The likelihood of you falling victim to a true con artist? Dunno - must be way slimmer than having to endure a parental/grandparental full court guilt press. I don't like it anymore than the next person when I can tell I've either been had or was being pushed in that direction, but I don't get manipulated. I get handled, I get talked at, I get non-compliance, I get doctored trussed-up reality. Crying wolf at every perceived control or slight is pointless and childish.

It's "society" -- meaning (according to Wikipedia):

a body of individuals of a species, generally seen as a community or group, that is outlined by the bounds of functional interdependence, comprising also possible characters or conditions such as cultural identity, social solidarity, or eusociality. Human societies are characterized by patterns of relationships between individuals that share a distinctive culture or institutions. Like other groups, a society allows its individual members to achieve individual needs or wishes that they could not fulfill separately by themselves, without the existence of the social group. Society, however, may be unique in that it is ontologically independent of, and utterly irreducible to, the qualities of its constituent individuals. As a reality sui generis, or "of its own kind", it is emergently composed of social facts that often hinder rather than help the pursuits of the subjects that form its physical and psychological underpinnings.

Paraphrased: The good with the bad. It's childish to believe that you will always get your own way.

Don't delude yourself that you won't bend to another's will at some point, and in so bending, have made a way for yourself and have not been hideously and ridiculously degraded. I tend to look at anyone truly shouting about being manipulated as generally placing too much value on their opinions/person/independence, as if someone would WANT to be bothered to manipulate you. Can't that be seen a mile away? Those who shout the loudest about it, IMO, are the ones who fear it most, even when it's just a suggestion of a monster in the headlights and is really a moth.

Manipulation is a passive-aggressive mode. The people IME who get accused of it most aren't using manipulation, they're being overtly aggressive, perhaps without shouting or cursing, which makes it seem less brute.

My ISTP ex-bf was a drug addict and could be very nefarious and Machiavellian, and that smoke screen blinded me, but I didn't feel manipulated. I felt stupid, but trusting people isn't always stupid. It's just a risk you take. I also realized that he'd kept a great many people in the dark and that I wasn't being a fool.

But when it is coming from ExFJs is it somehow more vicious and insidious?

Nope!

 

[hommefatal]

I think threads involving ENFs are a total mess because they tend to take everything personally.

INT: Some ENFs have weaknesses.
ENF: WTF? Are you crazy?

 

[Domino]

I think threads involving ENFs are a total mess because they tend to take everything personally.

We're not a mess, not any more so than a thread full of rampant warped logic whipping open it's overcoat and displaying it's underpants to passers-by.

Emotional does NOT equal messy.

 

[jenocyde]

Pink, I don't agree with your stance on manipulation. And the reason why is because I know first hand how to manipulate when I've been pushed far enough to do so. 99% of the time, I can't be bothered. And I've also been manipulated. Some people do prey on you and bend situations to their advantage. Especially when the victim is a child or otherwise innocent minded. Or an elderly lady who thought she was just buying life insurance. Or a woman who marries a man and then finds her savings wiped out and the man gone on to another victim. Or whatever. You can't always blame the victim for not being aware because there is no way you can be aware of everything. Sure, trust is a risk but should those that abuse trust be let off scot free? That is actually a scary stance to take, imo - it allows for all sorts of justifications of actions that "should" not be justifiable. There is nothing passive about it.

 

[BlackCat]

WOW how on earth did I miss this thread? Damn the fact that I'm a late snoozer/night owl.

In response to your OP, I am going to try to be as honest as possible (because I know you appreciate that) -

I have noticed a very marked pattern of when any type tries to ask a serious question to ENFJs the thread very quickly degenerates into platitudes, anecdotal stories, and misplaced sympathy. Even mongrel ENFPs manage to give some insightful posts into their psyche but I have not seen that very often with threads aimed at ENFJs. Either they get less than 10 responses, six of which are made by non-ENFJs or they turn into "NO YOU'RE AWESOME!!" Chinese firedrills.

This is one of the most annoying things on this forum. I sincerely have little to no knowledge about how ENFJs work, besides the fact that they are Fe doms and all that they (seemingly) want to do is make things good/make people feel good (which is annoying to me). This is probably where the EXFJ bashing comes from, because no one really knows the EXFJs, they just know the "make everyone feel good!" mask.

Now, I'm being completely serious. I do not have an antagonistic relationship towards Ti. I grew up with two IxTP siblings, I was introduced to it very quickly I feel comfortable with it, I've tried to encourage it's growth within myself, sometimes it's a bad moon rising but that's OK, cause I know what it is. Even in impersonal things, like choosing a laptop or switching auto insurance I tried to do my version of extensive research, thinking carefully over what I need and comparing it to what's out there. Of course, I'm best applying Ti towards people and relationships because it's easier and the most natural mode for my Ti to be aimed. I can dissect and analyze and distill a relationship like nobody's business.

I do something like this but with Te. Except it's about applying logic, not analyzing. Asserting the pure facts, etc. Ne Te, as heart calls it, it pretty much the explanation for it. I also grew up around Te and a few of my friends who are XXTJ (including an ESTJ I grew up with and an ENTJ that I've been friends with for a few years, with an ISTJ and a few INTJs in there as well) have ushered my Te into confident use and growth. Cool.

I'd just like to know why is it finding thoughtfully elucidated statements from ENFJs on the forum is nigh impossible. I'm not talking about sympathizing or charming or cracking a joke. Part of the reason why I can only muster two posts a day is because I try to THINK about the responses I give and make them reasoned. The hamsters in my brain say no more after a certain point.

Again very true. I wish you would post more often, maybe you would crush some of the EXFJ stereotypes! You are probably the only ENFJ besides "SpottingTrains" that has helped me in my understanding of you guys, and even there it's a very strange and foggy path to understanding. Even with my talks with Spotting I still don't understand how someone could function in that manner. Same with reading your posts. But they are very insightful and helpful even if they are rare, and they're helpful in understanding you people (which is why I'm here, to understand people).

This makes me look at Fe in a whole new light in my interpersonal interactions. I SEE it now and it's just freaking weird. It's like hearing a recording of your own voice and thinking 'is that the way I sound?' I say this neutrally, of course I have no problem with manifestations of sincere Fe. The way my Fe manifests itself is exactly the way you see it here. I don't try to avoid or pat people on the back and rub their heads and tell them it's gonna be OK. That's beginner level one to me, but that's the only way I see Fe being manifested on the forum. I acknowledge the problem or the tension and try not give them platitudes or blindly sympathize with them or overextend myself.

The problem I have is sometimes (keyword... sometimes) I have a hard time telling whether someone's Fe is sincere or if they are just trying to make the social atmosphere a more positive one. It's hard to not judge when you see that (from my viewpoint) happening, but hence my being here: To understand. I don't WANT to judge, but it happens.

Yep.

 

[hommefatal]

We're not a mess, not any more so than a thread full of rampant warped logic whipping open it's overcoat and displaying it's underpants to passers-by.

Emotional does NOT equal messy.

Hehe, I know. I just mean it's hard to ENFs to accept criticism. I don't like criticism either but I don't tend to deny things.

 

[Domino]

Pink, I don't agree with your stance on manipulation. And the reason why is because I know first hand how to manipulate when I've been pushed far enough to do so. 99% of the time, I can't be bothered. And I've also been manipulated. Some people do prey on you and bend situations to their advantage. Especially when the victim is a child or otherwise innocent minded. Or an elderly lady who thought she was just buying life insurance. Or a woman who marries a man and then finds her savings wiped out and the man gone on to another victim. Or whatever. You can't always blame the victim for not being aware because there is no way you can be aware of everything. Sure, trust is a risk but should those that abuse trust be let off scot free? That is actually a scary stance to take, imo - it allows for all sorts of justifications of actions that "should" not be justifiable. There is nothing passive about it.

Naturally, the category of "children and the elderly" doesn't apply, dollbaby, I get that loud and clear. To clarify, I'm not speaking of naivety or innocence. I'm speaking of capable everyday people bellowing about manipulation every time the wind blows because they simply can't accept the choices they've made. I chose to trust my ISTP, and I don't think my trust was misplaced, but I do see how it was unwise. I learned from it. I walked around feeling very angry and grieved with him, but "manipulation" as it gets popularly thrown around has lost all meaning to me.

A man wiping out your bank account is a REAL MONSTER. Predating on old people and children = MONSTER. Not a moth in the headlights. That *is* the con game. That *is* the heartless opportunist.

Complaining that you're being manipulated because your girlfriend wants you to look nice when you meet her parents? Not so much.

 

[jenocyde]

Naturally, the category of "children and the elderly" doesn't apply, dollbaby, I get that loud and clear. To clarify, I'm not speaking of naivety or innocence. I'm speaking of capable everyday people bellowing about manipulation every time the wind blows because they simply can't accept the choices they've made. I chose to trust my ISTP, and I don't think my trust was misplaced, but I do see how it was unwise. I learned from it. I walked around feeling very angry and grieved with him, but "manipulation" as it gets popularly thrown around has lost all meaning to me.

A man wiping out your bank account is a REAL MONSTER. Predating on old people and children = MONSTER. Not a moth in the headlights. That *is* the con game. That *is* the heartless opportunist.

Complaining that you're being manipulated because your girlfriend wants you to look nice when you meet her parents? Not so much.

I know that the term is thrown around too much, for sure. Just like the word "debate" with my type. Any two people can talk about anything, but if I join in, it's a debate or argument all of a sudden. But this doesn't mean that I am not extremely good at debating, whether I partake in it or not.

Manipulation is a funny thing. The whole point is that it's subversive, which leads to the paranoia of the masses. And while I agree that the word is used way too often in speaking about ENFJs, I don't agree that only the innocent should be defended. However clever I think I am, there is always someone more clever. And if that person decides to be devious, I am by default more innocent than him or her. Whatever, I'm just all over the place with this one... Manipulation clearly doesn't apply to you (thankfully) which is why you have a hard time accepting the level of damage it causes or how widespread it is. I used to believe that everyone is in control of their own mind, but now I'm not so sure...

 

[runvardh]

Some of us really want to trust people, but enough people break trust so one ends up having to be paranoid to avoid being taken. I don't care if the person means it or not, if it still is going to hurt in the end I might as well be on guard.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

However clever I think I am, there is always someone more clever. And if that person decides to be devious, I am by default more innocent than him or her.

It's not about cleverness and all about deviousness. Why should anyone have to be on guard, or else when they are a victim of an underhanded attack, it is all their fault?

 

[jenocyde]

Some of us really want to trust people, but enough people break trust so one ends up having to be paranoid to avoid being taken. I don't care if the person means it or not, if it still is going to hurt in the end I might as well be on guard.

That's a little bit different, I think. People get hurt sometimes. I wouldn't call that manipulation. But it does suck.

It's not about cleverness and all about deviousness. Why should anyone have to be on guard, or else when they are a victim of an underhanded attack, it is all their fault?

Your guess is as good as mine.

 

[Qre:us]

Isn't manipulation about a conscious intent?

 

[jenocyde]

Isn't manipulation about a conscious intent?

 

[Domino]

I know that the term is thrown around too much, for sure. Just like the word "debate" with my type. Any two people can talk about anything, but if I join in, it's a debate or argument all of a sudden. But this doesn't mean that I am not extremely good at debating, whether I partake in it or not.

That's not fair. If you aren't being argumentative or combative, why should the dynamic change simply because you've arrived?

Debating + ENTPs = rollicking foreplay. *ahem* It was even fun to watch him get riled up and turn a little red and get exasperated with me while wanting to rip my clothes off. NICE. It was usually over some technical detail or philosophical matter. (Or that time I sold his watch to someone... or when I filled his truck with pine cones... or when I put muddy boot prints on his pants...). I used to wear 4 inch heels on garage-less Fridays just for him.

Good times, good times.

Manipulation is a funny thing. The whole point is that it's subversive, which leads to the paranoia of the masses. And while I agree that the word is used way too often in speaking about ENFJs, I don't agree that only the innocent should be defended. However clever I think I am, there is always someone more clever. And if that person decides to be devious, I am by default more innocent than him or her. Whatever, I'm just all over the place with this one... Manipulation clearly doesn't apply to you (thankfully) which is why you have a hard time accepting the level of damage it causes or how widespread it is. I used to believe that everyone is in control of their own mind, but now I'm not so sure...

Paranoia - thank you. That's the word I was hunting for. I cannot tolerate paranoia. It's an agent of chaos with no inroad. It can't be reasoned with or appealed to emotionally. It might as well be a rabid animal you shoot on sight and save your energy because you can't save it.

And you're right. I do find it hard to accept that people warp and twist and attempt to hurt others with their lies and mechinations. It's part of what drives me up into my head a lot. The fact that I'm trying not to sweepingly condemn the human race for the predators I see on tv or have personally done battle against shows that I've still got fight in me, but it's exhausting, and I have zero tolerance for angsty "they're trying to control me" outbursts. I don't mean "my belligerent overbearing alcoholic/abusive father/mother tries to control me and makes my life hell", I mean "my boyfriend doesn't let me wear flip flops to dinner".

I feel sorry for the 90 year old lady who trusted her neighbor to cut her grass and not return to kill her and steal her things (this happened recently and I was so outraged I had to go walk it off... what if that had been my grandmother?). I don't feel sympathy for people who don't believe they should have to bend to ANYTHING at ANY TIME for ANYONE.

I have no patience for that kind of obstinate me-ism, esp since I already have my patience eroded by violent criminals, people who burn their babies with cigarettes, people who drink and drive, malicious humor, wife-beaters, petty vandals, and people who think it's "cool" to complain about the government but don't vote.

I feel like manipulation can be stopped because it's a present tense action. Lies are always post-dated, even when they extend into the present.

How can people DO that to each other?? We're not animals! Why do they do that?!

 

[Usehername]

IME, ENFJs can be uber-thoughtful. But when their Ti is not respected by themselves and integrated into their daily lives, it's limited to thoughtfulness on their terms. Which often means at the expense of how others would appreciate thoughtfulness. Which, I'd bet, is the reason for the misperception between (some) non-ENFJs and ENFJs respective views on the subject.

We all have our blindspots, and probably non-ENFJs are missing some ENFJ strengths, while ENFJs are missing how their blind spots are unintentionally hurting others by not giving them the support that they need.

(I've seen ENFJs competent academically with their Ti but seemingly unwilling to apply it to their interpersonals--it's a little box that they open up for classroom-related activities and they keep it hidden away even when i'm pointing to it and jumping up and down trying to get them to pull out that tool and put it to use.)

 

[jenocyde]

We live in a world of sick, Pink.

Let's run away - you and me against the world. You can be Thelma. Or The Sundance Kid. Or Bonnie.

(but we are animals)

 

[Domino]

IME, ENFJs can be uber-thoughtful. But when their Ti is not respected by themselves and integrated into their daily lives, it's limited to thoughtfulness on their terms. Which often means at the expense of how others would appreciate thoughtfulness. Which, I'd bet, is the reason for the misperception between (some) non-ENFJs and ENFJs respective views on the subject.

We all have our blindspots, and probably non-ENFJs are missing some ENFJ strengths, while ENFJs are missing how their blind spots are unintentionally hurting others by not giving them the support that they need.

(I've seen ENFJs competent academically with their Ti but seemingly unwilling to apply it to their interpersonals--it's a little box that they open up for classroom-related activities and they keep it hidden away even when i'm pointing to it and jumping up and down trying to get them to pull out that tool and put it to use.)

Well-said, and thanks for sharing! Always good to see you! :hi:

We live in a world of sick, Pink.

Let's run away - you and me against the world. You can be Thelma. Or The Sundance Kid. Or Bonnie.

YAY!!! I'll hot-wire an old Buick and we can stylishly tear around the West (from gas station to gas station... danged old Buick!) and look really mysterious and tough but feminine and slightly shiny from a comely amount of perspiration!

(but we are animals)

Can we be super sexy fun sparkle princess happy awesome animals?!

 

[runvardh]

That's a little bit different, I think. People get hurt sometimes. I wouldn't call that manipulation. But it does suck.

I wasn't speaking of just manipulation; the word, also, did not show up in my post.