[ENTJ] how do you argue with an ENTJ?

[Domino]

The group is a professional fraternity and I'm one of the last of the "old guard" of members. I've always beleived that we should treat pledges as human beings, which means that since I was initiated I've helped pledged study, got them out of trouble with actives, fed them home cooked meals and such- this group of ENTJs all were recipients of my help. Unfortunatly, most of them seem to have forgotten that they needed some help to get where they are now and are acting exactly like the actives they needed protection from. I'm still the one who's nice to pledges and advocates for them, which puts me at odds with the people who I helped get to where they are.

The pledge in question (the ENFP) is a friend of mine and is a lot more competent than most of the ENTJs were as pledges, but she occasionally talks back and doesn't always stick to status quo. When the ENTJs (there's a clique of 3 of them) decided to try and force her to do something that is blatently against national fraternity law, she refused, and now they're trying to get her expelled for being disrespectful.

Since I have some influence in the organization and am the only one who knows fraternity law I'm supposed to convince them to drop it.

Hope this clarifies things a bit!

Oh dear. A wall of catty females. *has visions of high school*

 

[miss fortune]

worse than catty females! Catty males! (I really didn't realize they existed until I joined the frat- it's a coed professional frat, so a good mix of guys and girls)

 

[Maverick]

Assuming they really are ENTJ, it's really not that difficult. Remain as calm as possible and argue logically with an emphasis on practical applications. Show that you are objective and have a measured viewpoint. Use facts and data to prove your points. Above all, do not get emotional or attack them personally or you will lost their respect and your credibility in their eyes.

For example, supposing you want to implement plan A and they want plan B. Argue saying "Plan B has X and Y advantages. Plan A has W and Z advantages that have been showed in previous endeavours to have M and N effects. Therefore, Plan A seems to be a better choice for our situation."

Do not use "shady" political means to get at them. Even if it may benefit you short term, there will be a price to pay and in the long run you will be known as being a person that uses unfair tactics and will lose trust from people (even those who benefitted from it). If you give out their secrets, remember that no one will trust you to give you theirs in the future because they will know you are the kind of person that divulgues information. Even if there were no practical disadvantages to doing so, it is in any cases an unethical behavior and you will have more integrity for doing it the straightforward way.

 

[miss fortune]

not getting emotional really isn't a problem with me!

gracias!

 

[runvardh]

My ENTJ friend is has a HORRIBLE sense of direction, especially when she goes all CC about knowing where she is. When with her I tend to just let her get absolutely lost to the point where she nearly breaks down and cries and then ask her if she wants help. If she doesn't break in time I usually tell her she can wander all she likes, I'm heading home my way. I've actually done that to a cousin once, she was 12 I was 8, I got to grandma's first. I don't argue, I let the problem beat them down and then teach or walk away.

 

[miss fortune]

Yeah- I know that it's probably the only way I can win, but if I wait the pledge will be de-pledged and I'll be so fed up with everyone that I'll probably end up quitting!

(one of those guys once corrected me when I was trying to direct him on how to get to my house! he was wrong and ended up several blocks away )

 

[substitute]

My ENTJ friend is has a HORRIBLE sense of direction, especially when she goes all CC about knowing where she is. When with her I tend to just let her get absolutely lost to the point where she nearly breaks down and cries and then ask her if she wants help. If she doesn't break in time I usually tell her she can wander all she likes, I'm heading home my way. I've actually done that to a cousin once, she was 12 I was 8, I got to grandma's first. I don't argue, I let the problem beat them down and then teach or walk away.

Another uncanny similarity...

I've done the exact same thing myself - especially when someone's asked me to direct them, not listened to my directions and then blamed me for us being lost. Dammit, I can point to North in three seconds flat, wherever I am, and this pillock is blaming me for us being lost?? I'm not lost, they're just not listening to my directions!!

[/end derailment]

 

[runvardh]

Yeah- I know that it's probably the only way I can win, but if I wait the pledge will be de-pledged and I'll be so fed up with everyone that I'll probably end up quitting!

(one of those guys once corrected me when I was trying to direct him on how to get to my house! he was wrong and ended up several blocks away )

I totally and gladly believe in the instructional techniques of cruelty and making someone look like a dumbshit all on their own when it comes to someone who doesn't listen. Then again, I've been too successful with relying on my own resources that I tend to not need people to believe me for something to work. Probably another reason why I suck at relationships... when I manage to have one.

 

[miss fortune]

I've tried reasoning with these guys in the past, but it's not easy. Guess I'll give it one last try (by throwing all of my political and social capital into the ring) and if that doesn't work I doubt I'll stick around. That may make enough of a statement. (yes- teaching by letting the person screw themselves over is a splendid approach for most circumstances!)

 

[runvardh]

Another uncanny similarity...

I've done the exact same thing myself - especially when someone's asked me to direct them, not listened to my directions and then blamed me for us being lost. Dammit, I can point to North in three seconds flat, wherever I am, and this pillock is blaming me for us being lost?? I'm not lost, they're just not listening to my directions!!

[/end derailment]

This is exactly me, I feel thy pain. Should I be questioning my humanity?

 

[miss fortune]

so I guess I should take it that the best way to argue with an ENTJ is not to argue with them?

(or hit them in the head with an axe and put them through the wood chipper )

 

[substitute]

so I guess I should take it that the best way to argue with an ENTJ is not to argue with them?

Yes. I believe I mentioned calmness as being vital, once or twice!

(or hit them in the head with an axe and put them through the wood chipper )

That could work too...

 

[runvardh]

(or hit them in the head with an axe and put them through the wood chipper )

Actually, it's more like letting them walk blindly into the wood chipper then laugh your ass off when they come out with the "OMG" look on their face.

 

[miss fortune]

do they have to come out???

 

[substitute]

Actually, it's more like letting them walk blindly into the wood chipper then laugh your ass off when they come out with the "OMG" look on their face.

Dude, you been practicing with that hammer? You is hittin' them nails RIGHT where they belong!



(as he laces his comment with disclaimers in fear for his life should the ENTJ's he knows (wonderful, lovely, sweet people that they are, the widdle puddy tats) catch sight of this)

 

[miss fortune]

Yes. I believe I mentioned calmness as being vital, once or twice!

I do stay calm- these people are seriously making me secretly go crazy and want to play in traffic though! (secret as in they have no clue)

 

[miss fortune]

nobody got my Fargo reference!

 

[substitute]

I do stay calm- these people are seriously making me secretly go crazy and want to play in traffic though! (secret as in they have no clue)

Calm - yes, but firm, mind you! No looking down, no submissive body language allowed! Or it'll be

 

[runvardh]

do they have to come out???

That all depends on the type of chipper they decide to blindly walk into. After that it's how much you care about them that dictates if and how much you cry if they don't come out.

Dude, you been practicing with that hammer? You is hittin' them nails RIGHT where they belong!



(as he laces his comment with disclaimers in fear for his life should the ENTJ's he knows (wonderful, lovely, sweet people that they are, the widdle puddy tats) catch sight of this)

Again, should I be questioning my humanity? (or Fness)

 

[miss fortune]

Calm - yes, but firm, mind you! No looking down, no submissive body language allowed! Or it'll be

they're all actually a bit scared of me I was voted the biggest Baddass Motherfucker a few semesters in a row! (should this be of any use?)