[MBTI General] ISTJs/ESTJs Is there anyone who actually sees your true feelings?

[swordpath]

willyoubemyfriendplz?

Nah.

 

[EJCC]

I totally think ESTJ's have a lot going on in their heads! It's strange that you said hypocrites. I wouldn't use that word but I think I know what you mean. The ESTJ I know, has told me what is annoying to him or what he wouldn't like in someone else and then he has proceeded to date exactly that. Very strange, in my opinion. But yeah, when I've called him out on this he gives no answer or laughs it off. Total eye-roll material for me, just as my INTP silliness, when it kicks in, can usually guarantee an eye-roll from him.

Yeah, this sort of thing has happened to me a lot. I would react in the same way. Those are sensitive topics, really. I know that if I break what was previously a very strong conviction, I feel really guilty about it, even if the decision itself gave a positive result. So, if someone calls me on it, not only does it feel accusatory and personal, but the person is almost always right. And you know how ESTJs aren't that good at admitting they're wrong...
So you see what I'm getting at.
And I'm not sure what it is about the type that causes these situations more, but it can be VERY irritating.

EDIT: I didn't notice this quote a few pages ago, so I'm going to address it here:

EJCC - Yes, yes, I think that's it! So, would it be better for us to explicitly explain that we need their presence and help desperately and how they could do that in practical terms or would that feel like coersion? (All of this is assuming that I've tried not to put them in an unnecessarily stressful situation through lack of planning ahead). Also if they understood the exponentially high payback they would receive emotionally for helping, would that overcome the fear of #2? I mean, the kinds of things I'm referring to doing are like moving tables, or doing the last minute can't-be-done before work that comes with putting on a big event for a crowd or something like that, not mopping up tears with a person in a state of emotional mush. I think for me, it seems very clear when I need help and after stating how much there is to do and how few people there are that I can call on their non-presence tell me they don't want to. I feel like asking them is coersion because since they can see I'm stressed and are not offering help, they've made up their mind. Is that true?

Explicitly explaining is always a good thing, for us. It wouldn't feel like coersion. It would feel like what it is, which is honesty, and honesty is the best policy, as they say
If you just hint at all that needs doing, that might look like complaining to them, and not like the call for help that it is. I'd say that it's better to be as direct as possible.
After a little practice at this, and most importantly, after they notice the pattern (partner under too much emotional pressure = partner in need of help), being helpful in that manner should come more naturally to them.

 

[Fidelia]

Wow! I never realized that they'd just see it as complaining rather than as an indirect request to save face in case they don't want to help.

I had one occasion in particular where I had a guest instructor here for a week. It was a busy time of year and I was ill too. I was giving the instructor rides to and from and hotel, making all his meals and hosting him for them at my house (there's no restaurant in town fit to send someone to for a week), scheduling full days of workshops and then evening events with food, driving the kids that have no rides to and from evening events (in a very spread out rural community), and participating in teaching at the evening events as well. My work day was starting at 7 am and ending after midnight every night. I had made it clear (well what I thought was clear....) that I was overwhelmed and needed help with the evening stuff, but none was offered. At the last minute one of my friends who was in the middle of report cards saw that I really needed her and came to cook pizzas for the kids' supper while the kids and I and the instructor had the evening stuff going on (when you order pizza here, it may come in half an hour or it may come 4 hours later). When I came home, my ESTJ was over at his buddy's watching TV. I got home and he inquired about the evening. I said something about what a godsend my friend was. He realized that I had hoped he'd come and just said matter of factly, "Well I wasn't asked"

It's funny how what seems obvious in one framework of thinking, really isn't in another. Thanks for the advice.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Yeah, this sort of thing has happened to me a lot. I would react in the same way. Those are sensitive topics, really. I know that if I break what was previously a very strong conviction, I feel really guilty about it, even if the decision itself gave a positive result. So, if someone calls me on it, not only does it feel accusatory and personal, but the person is almost always right. And you know how ESTJs aren't that good at admitting they're wrong...
So you see what I'm getting at.
And I'm not sure what it is about the type that causes these situations more, but it can be VERY irritating.

To me, when I call him out on things like this, it's just because I am wondering what his thought process behind his change of mind is. It doesn't matter that he changed his mind. It's more a curiosity like, "okay, how did you go from that to that?" I didn't realize it was so uncomfortable to be called out. I will be much gentler in the future.

Even getting an ESTJ to talk to you when they are wrong...almost impossible!! It's like they know they were wrong and avoid that conversation at all costs. If you do talk to them be prepared for this....

Keep in mind, these conversations go sort of like, ME: "you doing this made me feel this way" ESTJ: "I didn't do that." ME (after getting nowhere with ESTJ) "Fine. you don't need to say you were wrong. I know you were wrong and you know it too." (I hate saying that because I feel like I'm letting him off the hook, but at the same time I'm not getting an apology and have to close the argument somehow).

What the ESTJ should say, "You're right. I'm sorry." If the ESTJ said this right off the bat, the conversation would be over. So, what's the best way to get an apology out of them??

 

[EJCC]

To me, when I call him out on things like this, it's just because I am wondering what his thought process behind his change of mind is. It doesn't matter that he changed his mind. It's more a curiosity like, "okay, how did you go from that to that?"

Yeah, if you asked me that in one of those situations, I would refuse to answer, because the answer would be something like "I didn't want to at all, because I was AWARE that it violated my principles, but I had no other choice in the matter because my principles were so pure that they weren't realistic in the situation, and oh god I'm such a hypocrite, and PLEASE DON'T TALK TO ME."

Even getting an ESTJ to talk to you when they are wrong...almost impossible!! It's like they know they were wrong and avoid that conversation at all costs.

Yeah, that's because they DO know that they were wrong, and they DO avoid that conversation. We're not as oblivious to our own thought processes as one might think we are

Keep in mind, these conversations go sort of like, ME: "you doing this made me feel this way" ESTJ: "I didn't do that."

Jeez! Even I don't do that. That sucks.

What the ESTJ should say, "You're right. I'm sorry." If the ESTJ said this right off the bat, the conversation would be over. So, what's the best way to get an apology out of them??

Hey! Check it out! I'm admitting that I have no idea!
I've always had trouble apologizing. Even in elementary school (and younger), when I would get into fights with friends, I would have to write them an apology note instead of telling them in person. It has to do with the whole vulnerability thing. So, I have no idea what YOU could do about it, but if you're friends with an ESTJ, and they tell you about a situation that might warrant an apology, if you convince them that they need to do that, they might. But that's all I can think of at the moment.

 

[raz]

Hey! Check it out! I'm admitting that I have no idea!
I've always had trouble apologizing. Even in elementary school (and younger), when I would get into fights with friends, I would have to write them an apology note instead of telling them in person. It has to do with the whole vulnerability thing. So, I have no idea what YOU could do about it, but if you're friends with an ESTJ, and they tell you about a situation that might warrant an apology, if you convince them that they need to do that, they might. But that's all I can think of at the moment.

OMG, I know! I want to do things like that, but the vulnerability thing freaks me out. It's so much easier in writing.

 

[d@v3]

Nah.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Hey! Check it out! I'm admitting that I have no idea!
I've always had trouble apologizing. Even in elementary school (and younger), when I would get into fights with friends, I would have to write them an apology note instead of telling them in person. It has to do with the whole vulnerability thing. So, I have no idea what YOU could do about it, but if you're friends with an ESTJ, and they tell you about a situation that might warrant an apology, if you convince them that they need to do that, they might. But that's all I can think of at the moment.

He apologizes but mostly it is a while after the occurrence happened and it's over with anyway. But more often he comes to me to ask advice about his interactions with others or what he should do in certain circumstances. (normally, he wants to try to run away from handling a situation - usually dealing with emotions). I was quite shocked that he actually does most of what I suggest. I have noticed that if I tell him, "It's the RIGHT thing to do" that goes a long way to him.

 

[EJCC]

Yeah, ESTJs really do listen to their friends, and care immensely about what they have to say, advice-wise. Which puts an ESTJ's friends in a key strategic position... meaning that you could manipulate them a little bit ...meaning that you could get them to apologize whenever it is, as you said, the right thing to do.
What do you think?

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Yeah, ESTJs really do listen to their friends, and care immensely about what they have to say, advice-wise. Which puts an ESTJ's friends in a key strategic position... meaning that you could manipulate them a little bit ...meaning that you could get them to apologize whenever it is, as you said, the right thing to do.
What do you think?

Next time he does something to me I don't like, maybe I'll try to play that card and see if an apology comes sooner! lol...but our disagreements are few and far between, so that's good.

It really is sort of surprising how much he listens. I remember I once asked him why he was asking ME about all the stuff in his life. He replied, "I know you're honest" At the time, I didn't really get that as being that important to an ESTJ. I guess it's not until talking to you that maybe I realize that he does hold me in high esteem. Aww...I'm touched!

 

[EJCC]

It really is sort of surprising how much he listens. I remember I once asked him why he was asking ME about all the stuff in his life. He replied, "I know you're honest" At the time, I didn't really get that as being that important to an ESTJ. I guess it's not until talking to you that maybe I realize that he does hold me in high esteem. Aww...I'm touched!

That's so sweet!!! I'm glad I could help out.
Yeah, you know that an ESTJ respects you when they ask you for advice like that. (But isn't that true with most types?) I really relate, because I also respect honesty in people. (Sometimes I take constructive criticism very personally, but I'm learning slowly that it's good for me in the long run )

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

you know that an ESTJ respects you when they ask you for advice like that. (But isn't that true with most types?)

I've found some F's will ask you for advice on their relationship issues/life decisions maybe...five minutes after introduction? So, I've found that people asking for advice isn't indicative of how strong the bond between me and advisee is, but it certainly brings you closer together a lot faster!

 

[INTPatricia]

Does an ESTJ want his true feelings "seen"? Would he rather be understood 'as needed'?

 

[EJCC]

I've found some F's will ask you for advice on their relationship issues/life decisions maybe...five minutes after introduction?

Oh my god! I can't imagine. What a way to live! I'm sure it works for them, but... wow.

Does an ESTJ want his true feelings "seen"? Would he rather be understood 'as needed'?

Definitely "as needed". The emotional outburstings that I find to be (or rather, closer to being) okay are the ones that are there as a cry for help/advice/whatever. The ones that just show up because of something petty? THOSE piss me off. I'd rather that all the emotions that I show (well, all the negative ones, anyway) be there for a reason... although I wouldn't want those emotions to be seen by anyone except those who I'm interacting with/asking advice from.
An example of what I would NOT prefer: I got frustrated with someone in front of a big group of people that I see often throughout each week day. I would have preferred that the (admittedly uncomfortable) interaction be just between the two of us, but... that wasn't how it worked out. So for the rest of the day, from what seemed like everyone who was there, it was "Hey, are you okay?" "What's going on?" or, worst of all, "Hey, is it just me or were you really pissed off just then?"
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!!!!!! Leave me ALONE! :steam:

 

[Fidelia]

What do you rate as being petty? For example, I have often found with the people closest to me that what seems at first glance to be about one rather petty incident rankles only because it is one in a series of incidents which indicate a deeper underlying problem. In my experience, the STJs I know take this to be strictly about the petty incident at hand and dismiss it immediately without considering why these things keep coming up. Most people don't really enjoy drama that much and would rather not be emotionally stirred up and held in lower regard than they were by the one they love. It's more a matter of needing the problem at hand fixed. Sometimes the underlying problem doesn't emerge unless the petty problem is voiced. Maybe the issue is that the STJ does more of this process in their heads than some types do.

 

[EJCC]

What do you rate as being petty? For example, I have often found with the people closest to me that what seems at first glance to be about one rather petty incident rankles only because it is one in a series of incidents which indicate a deeper underlying problem. In my experience, the STJs I know take this to be strictly about the petty incident at hand and dismiss it immediately without considering why these things keep coming up. Most people don't really enjoy drama that much and would rather not be emotionally stirred up and held in lower regard than they were by the one they love. It's more a matter of needing the problem at hand fixed. Sometimes the underlying problem doesn't emerge unless the petty problem is voiced. Maybe the issue is that the STJ does more of this process in their heads than some types do.

For me, it's that I fail at diagnosing the true problem. Here's the thought process: "Oh god, this sucks... wait, this isn't a big deal. Why am I getting emotional about this?? It's not that time of the month... I've been sleeping long enough every night for the past few days... Damn it!! Why can't I figure this out???" Then I obsess about it for a while and latch on to whatever reason makes more sense at the time (which might not always be correct).
Of course, if someone I really trust (who reads me well - usually I'd go to an NF for this, but other types might work too) is nearby, I might ask them what they think. But this isn't always the case.

 

[Fidelia]

Yes! I think that in failing to diagnose the real problem, many STJs dismiss it as being the other person's problem (or an imagined problem) and resent them for making the STJ feel bad. Would it help if the other person tried to figure out the underlying problem and present that first instead of registering the "petty" problem at all?

 

[EJCC]

Yes! I think that in failing to diagnose the real problem, many STJs dismiss it as being the other person's problem (or an imagined problem) and resent them for making the STJ feel bad. Would it help if the other person tried to figure out the underlying problem and present that first instead of registering the "petty" problem at all?

Oh, sorry. I wasn't really thinking of interpersonal problems specifically - just any sort of problem that would make your subconscious preoccupied. (could be stress, e.g.) I don't usually blame others, though - I blame myself for reacting too strongly to the others. I absolutely NEVER think "X person made me act this way! My reaction is entirely their fault!" I might blame them for the situation, but not for my reaction. I don't do that.
I think that what would help most is for people who aren't close to the STJ to just pretend like nothing happened. The people close to them can try to figure it out, though. That would actually be pretty helpful.

Sorry if I'm hogging the questions...

 

[Fidelia]

Keep answering! The others will jump in if they'd like to.

I think more undefined problems like stress are often experienced in the way you describe and if no answer has been found, people often turn to someone who might have a stab at an accurate guess. For example, when I quit my job I was very at peace with my decision. I was worried that they would not find a qualified person to fill it, because qualified people with the right focus of skills willing to go to that location in that timeframe would make up far less that 1% of people searching for a job. On the day where it was announced, I was pleased that they had found a qualified person to replace me and carry on something that I had put a lot of work into. On the drive home several hours later, I found myself crying (I very rarely EVER cry) and it kind of scared me more because I couldn't figure out why. After talking with my mum I realized that it was partially that it really made it final and it did say that maybe I wasn't irreplaceable after all.

With interpersonal problems, do you think that your gender has anything to do with your tendancy not to blame the other person or is it just you as an individual? With the other STJs I know (all of whom are male), each one resents it when someone brings something up (especially the truer it is) mostly because it made them feel like a bad person which they know they're not (maybe it's a reaction to feelings of vulnerability?).

You've said that you are definitely more comfortable with the role of being needed if emotions are involved (giving help/advice/comfort etc). What happens if there is a legitimate problem that needs to be straightened out between you and someone you love where you cannot fit into that role because the situation calls for more vulnerability on your part? Would there be anyone you could do that with? Would it happen naturally or be very difficult and only once in a long while?

 

[EJCC]

I think more undefined problems like stress are often experienced in the way you describe and if no answer has been found, people often turn to someone who might have a stab at an accurate guess.

This leads me to another thing I was going to say relating to stress. There have been certain things in my life that have been monumental and involved waiting for deadlines, to hear results. I thought that I had done a good job of shoving it out of my mind for a while, but as it got closer and closer to the deadline, I started getting terrible, stabbing chest pain. I had read about physical manifestations of stress happening with ESTJs, but I had always imagined that as being exaggerated, and not so real as it was. Do you think this has to do with bottling things up? (I'm guessing yes.)

For example, when I quit my job I was very at peace with my decision. I was worried that they would not find a qualified person to fill it, because qualified people with the right focus of skills willing to go to that location in that timeframe would make up far less that 1% of people searching for a job. On the day where it was announced, I was pleased that they had found a qualified person to replace me and carry on something that I had put a lot of work into. On the drive home several hours later, I found myself crying (I very rarely EVER cry) and it kind of scared me more because I couldn't figure out why. After talking with my mum I realized that it was partially that it really made it final and it did say that maybe I wasn't irreplaceable after all.

I'm sorry. That sounds rough. Thanks for bringing that up. It's good when things remind a person that it's not all just you (and by you, I mean me, if you know what I mean)

With interpersonal problems, do you think that your gender has anything to do with your tendancy not to blame the other person or is it just you as an individual? With the other STJs I know (all of whom are male), each one resents it when someone brings something up (especially the truer it is) mostly because it made them feel like a bad person which they know they're not (maybe it's a reaction to feelings of vulnerability?).

I think that's a different situation, that you're talking about. When people bring up mistakes that I've made, or things like that, I can feel like I'm being attacked, and get very defensive, entirely because it makes me feel like a bad person. So... I guess I do that too? Was that the sort of situation you were thinking of?

You've said that you are definitely more comfortable with the role of being needed if emotions are involved (giving help/advice/comfort etc). What happens if there is a legitimate problem that needs to be straightened out between you and someone you love where you cannot fit into that role because the situation calls for more vulnerability on your part? Would there be anyone you could do that with? Would it happen naturally or be very difficult and only once in a long while?

Hm... I might need an example of this.