[MBTI General] ISTJs/ESTJs Is there anyone who actually sees your true feelings?

[Fidelia]

I'm so glad if gives you some clues as to other's behaviour!

I've seen those kinds of patterns in both my mum and dad's relationship (ENFJ and ISTJ) and mine (INFJ with ESTJ). I also have a friend who married an STJ (ENFP with ESTJ) and another friend dating an STJ (ISFJ with ESTJ). At least in the NF cases, I think the STJ either feels defeated or else goes on as usual despite the displays of emotion, hoping it will all sort itself out. The NF nearly always feels rejected and after years on a roller coaster of investment/hope/rejection/resentment/one way disclosure finally withdraws emotionally so that they can remain physically well. However, it remains the deepest sadness they have because they have invested everything they have into the relationship. Even if marriage and family are extremely important, it appears to me that all of the STJs eggs are not all in the one basket.

All of the aforementioned relationships are in various stages and ages in life. My parents have been together for over 40 years and their two types have in many ways been a good combination. As time has gone on though, they have increasingly led parallel existences due to unresolved conflicts, much to my mother's sorrow. They both still love each other and they are very committed to the idea of marriage. If more understanding of each other could happen, I don't think it would be too late even now for things to change. Unfortunately, I don't imagine it will.

 

[EJCC]

It never occurred to me that the STJs didn't realize that.

Yet more proof that STJs and NFs are on VERY different wavelengths. Which is why threads like this are such a great idea I never would have known about that thought process otherwise.

At least in the NF cases, I think the STJ either feels defeated or else goes on as usual despite the displays of emotion, hoping it will all sort itself out. The NF nearly always feels rejected and after years on a roller coaster of investment/hope/rejection/resentment/one way disclosure finally withdraws emotionally so that they can remain physically well. However, it remains the deepest sadness they have because they have invested everything they have into the relationship. Even if marriage and family are extremely important, it appears to me that all of the STJs eggs are not all in the one basket.

This is so, so sad! What miscommunication! And yet they both mean well in what they're doing.
What fascinates me about the NF relationship view you've been describing is that both STJs and NFs have a need to be useful to their partner, which, if not fulfilled, can only make things worse for them. Only the NF need is something that the STJs often try desperately to avoid - opening up.
I know I'm repeating myself (a LOT), but thanks again for answering my question in such depth. Very, VERY helpful.

 

[proteanmix]

Can I just say how wonderful this thread is, with fidelia facilitating discussion and understanding and the xSTJs opening up! This is what MBTI is supposed to do, enlighten and open pathways of communication.

I'm very happy to see this!

 

[Fidelia]

EJCC don't worry about repeating yourself. I find it helps to understand it better when different people say the same thing in different ways. So here's the question - can this problem be overcome? I mean, I think most NFs could settle for way less emoting if they felt that the STJ could open up in other ways. Is this likely to be able to occur though? I don't think of many of those other things as being horribly vulnerable, but from looking at my dad and at my ex boyfriend, it looks like they are. On the other hand, maybe they just aren't aware of the same things that you didn't know from the last couple of posts. In my own way I've tried to make them aware, but often it is in the midst of feeling angry or sad which is too distracting and also invalidates much of what I am saying to them. I have never really thought it out as thoroughly and articulated it out loud as I have here. What do you think the best way would be to approach it?

 

[entropie]

I do !

 

[LotsOfHeart]

I've seen these types when they're stressed and it's interesting because they are both (especially ESTJs) extremely confident most of the time, or at least come across as such. Since the inferior of ESTJs is introverted feeling, I can read on their faces if they feel scared or unsure. However, they are less likely to talk about it than most other types. With ISTJs, introverted feeling is a notch higher on their list, but it's a similar story. Ironically, ISTJs are even quieter about their feelings sometimes, I think, because they're introverted.

 

[Fidelia]

So what do you do, particularly if what is bothering them is becoming destuctive to the relationship? I couldn't tell at first, but now can fairly accurately tell with both types when there is something wrong. I just am not sure how to help...

 

[Fidelia]

In regards to NFs trying to fix things - if they have tried verbally to no avail, they will often resort to written communication. Now from what I have read from your responses, there is nothing wrong with this.

However, NFs tend to use it as a way to bleed off excess emotion and to try to solicit a response to clear up the situation. The first is ineffective with STJs and only alarms them and the second often results in acting like it didn't happen (no acknowledgement). I, and I would venture to say NFs in general cannot handle indifference. Even hatred would be better than indifference to them.

So, in some cases, the scenario goes like this: NF tries in person - no response. NF explains what they are feeling and how it is impacting them on paper - no response. NF starts feeling that perhaps they were hasty, plus now they are worried that the lack of response means the other person is angry AND the original problem hasn't been cleared up. So the NF apologizes in writing and says that they overreacted and they have been doing some thinking and they'll be alright. Then the STJ feels inwardly or outwardly resentful to have been the recipient of upsetting emotions that now are just wiped away with several keystrokes. Just like that! Either the NF must be fickle, they think, or else they are mean to upset them like that on a whim. Either way, this cannot continue! The NF meanwhile still has two problems that haven't been cleared up plus they just swallowed down a bunch of resentful feelings and apologized even though they felt they had been wronged and now are the recipient of the STJs disgust or frustration. And so now the resentful feelings emerge again, eventually making them lash out and the STJ feel hurt and surprised (but again not outwardly showing it).

How can this cycle be avoided?

 

[EJCC]

Maybe if you just mention the issue in question to them? Or if you otherwise bring it up/get them to bring it up in private (one-on-one) conversation. If you're a friend, and you mention it directly to them (maybe asking questions? Like "How's the project going?" Oh, what am I doing trying to give tact suggestions to an INFJ??? Fail!
Being indirect about it, e.g. "I care about you, and I'm here for you when you need someone to talk to", may not cut it in certain situations, since it requires the STJ to take initiative (which they probably won't - keep in mind that what's required here is for them to do something that's against their instincts, and STJs aren't so good with risks). But I think, deep inside, I really do want to bring up some things that are nagging at me. So, with a little encouragement, I'll let you in.
But the way I see it, the best solution would be one where you are (almost) blunt with them. In this thread, you've (skillfully) revealed a giant miscommunication that's common in STJ/NF relations, and maybe the STJ should know about it too (in its most basic, non-MBTI-specific, non-technical form). Just that you know that they're having a tough time, but... yeah, I'll let the ones with emotional intelligence and tact finish that sentence.

 

[Amira]

Oh, what am I doing trying to give tact suggestions to an INFJ??? Fail!

EJCC, that is the first time in a LONG time that I actually did splurt a little on my keyboard! ROFL.

However, NFs tend to use it as a way to bleed off excess emotion and to try to solicit a response to clear up the situation. The first is ineffective with STJs and only alarms them and the second often results in acting like it didn't happen (no acknowledgement). I, and I would venture to say NFs in general cannot handle indifference. Even hatred would be better than indifference to them.

So, in some cases, the scenario goes like this: NF tries in person - no response. NF explains what they are feeling and how it is impacting them on paper - no response. NF starts feeling that perhaps they were hasty, plus now they are worried that the lack of response means the other person is angry AND the original problem hasn't been cleared up. So the NF apologizes in writing and says that they overreacted and they have been doing some thinking and they'll be alright. Then the STJ feels inwardly or outwardly resentful to have been the recipient of upsetting emotions that now are just wiped away with several keystrokes. Just like that! Either the NF must be fickle, they think, or else they are mean to upset them like that on a whim. Either way, this cannot continue! The NF meanwhile still has two problems they that haven't been cleared up plus they just swallowed down a bunch of resentful feelings and apologized even though they felt they had been wronged and now are the recipient of the STJs disgust or frustration. And so now the resentful feelings emerge again, eventually making them lash out and the STJ feel hurt and surprised (but again not outwardly showing it).

How can this cycle be avoided?

Ouchie, that sounds a little too familiar... Yeah. You are right that NFs can handle any emotion better than being ignored. It took me a LONG time to get that. I still barely understand it, but it is a fact as told to me by lots of people. When someone is mad at me I would prefer they tell me and then go away and let me fix it and then we can be all happy again, OR that they decide it's trivial and go away for a bit until they can be back to normal. I do those two things quite naturally and it SEEMED like a good way to preserve someone's dignity and not bother them with my momentary frustrations. Ha and double ha. I see people all the time get mad at each for what seem to me very, very minor things and they have a little tiff and end with apologies and seem happy to have had a fight because it meant they spent more time together and they connected more. Yikes! I guess I'm freaked out by this partly because emotions seem so very powerful and confusing to me that when I let loose things can get pretty messy for a while. Seriously, if I was in a marriage like one of my friends where they are constantly being blissful, then stressed, then grumpy, then talking it over, then joking about something, then blissful and gooey, then ticked at the driver over there (all in the space of maybe 30 minutes!) I think I would get ulcers!

 

[Fidelia]

EJCC -
With both people, I've tried, to no avail and with increasingly bad results. I know that one on one is the way to go, in a matter-of-fact manner, not too pushy, not expecting big emotion and not purporting to know how they feel already. Giving concrete observation of behaviour that leads me to believe there is a problem and matter of factly stating care for and offering a listening ear to the person in question is good. Allowing for more silent time or even an interval of time with ISTJs is also useful. Not expecting to see immediate reaction to my words on the STJ's face is important as is realizing that they are not intentionally trying to be hurtful. Perhaps explaining the common pitfalls in the two communication styles in layman's terms so that they have an idea of how to prepare may be of help (This I haven't tried, because until now I wasn't sure enough of where they were coming from). Does that sound like a reasonable summary? Have I missed anything or misunderstood anything so far? Then an almost blunt assessment of the situation as I see it?

I also wondered, if someone can accurately guess what the STJ is feeling and states that (in an appropriate manner), will the STJ feel vulnerable and unfairly exposed and layer up even more?

For us, feeling understood by someone is the biggest comfort and compliment one could give. Even the desire to understand us is a huge help (and this can be done asking concrete questions). I too am careful about revealing too much lest it be stomped on, yet my need for intimacy (top of the needs list for NFs, towards the bottom for STJs) compells me to. Therefore, when it does get stomped on (even unknowingly), there are larger and larger chunks of me that you'll never see and yet I'll wish that you wanted to. Because you have less information, you'll also have less context for figuring out my behaviour, which makes you antsy when it starts impacting you negatively.

Amira - That's a very accurate assessment of it. I think that you are right that the STJ would still feel burdened by all the little problems and the NF just couldn't go off on their own and deal with it (maybe they could to handle more things in stride, but not everything.) It's funny you should say about some people feeling conflict brings them closer. I do not fly off the handle easily, but on one occasion I did with someone older than me that I worked with and who had pushed their luck in every way possible. I ended up telling him what I thought, he ended up giving more context and showing how badly he felt, we came to some agreement for how we could work together better in the future and things have gone swimmingly since, with great mutual respect. I don't like drama in my life but I also realize that compared to the way STJs naturally function, I would still be considered oversensitive.

I'm also really glad that you wrote out how you would see the most comfortable way to handle things as being. I need to mull...

An interesting thread that one ENTJ just started is called "The iceman and the child". I wonder if it will bring further answers...

I really appreciate everyone's participation and patience in getting this thing figured out. How lucky are we???

 

[Amira]

With both people, I've tried, to no avail and with increasingly bad results. I know that one on one is the way to go, in a matter-of-fact manner, not too pushy, not expecting big emotion and not purporting to know how they feel already. Giving concrete observation of behaviour that leads me to believe there is a problem and matter of factly stating care for and offering a listening ear to the person in question is good. Allowing for more silent time or even an interval of time with ISTJs is also useful. Not expecting to see immediate reaction to my words on the STJ's face is important as is realizing that they are not intentionally trying to be hurtful. Perhaps explaining the common pitfalls in the two communication styles in layman's terms so that they have an idea of how to prepare may be of help (This I haven't tried, because until now I wasn't sure enough of where they were coming from). Does that sound like a reasonable summary? Have I missed anything or misunderstood anything so far? Then an almost blunt assessment of the situation as I see it?

Sounds like a good summary.

And actually:

For us, feeling understood by someone is the biggest comfort and compliment one could give. Even the desire to understand us is a huge help (and this can be done asking concrete questions).

I think that is one thing NFs and SJs have in common (people in general, really). Or at least, I like it when people are trying to understand my personality and what makes me tick. As you might have observed, when someone takes the time to ask questions and listen to the answers I will get quite chatty! Most people nowadays are too busy to do that for many people at all, which I think is sad.

 

[Fidelia]

But how come when I have tried this with other SJs that you people, they just avoid the question or dismiss it? This is what I want to do, because I am aware that it is very uncomfortable for anyone to feel that someone is upset with them frequently. I feel as if I have discovered some kind of gold mine here!

 

[raz]

This thread has so lost me.

 

[EJCC]

Sounds like a good summary.

I agree. You've got it.

I think that is one thing NFs and SJs have in common (people in general, really). Or at least, I like it when people are trying to understand my personality and what makes me tick. As you might have observed, when someone takes the time to ask questions and listen to the answers I will get quite chatty! Most people nowadays are too busy to do that for many people at all, which I think is sad.

+1. Some people get put off when I ask them a lot of questions about things, but they don't realize that I LOVE it when people ask ME a lot of questions. It's like in that thread about SJs and surveys.
We DO have a lot of common ground with NFs. Which is kind of not what I was expecting from this thread. But you know.

This thread has so lost me.

LOL. NFs are so confusing.

 

[Fidelia]

Sorry Raz,

Didn't mean to ditch you. I've just noticed a lot of hostility towards ESTJ types in particular and many more who don't understand ISTJs. Having experienced my own troubles with it myself I think we now recognize where some of the fundamental differences lie and how that might be mutually beneficial to us. I think EJCC in particular has been willing to weigh in on it because she has an NF parent, and I have a SJ parent so there are some common places where the two of us could have respectively made mistakes in relating to them (plus she likes to be of service). I'm not sure about Amira's parents, but she seems to recognize the dynamics of the two types reacting badly to each other and is willing to explore why. Start another thread though and I'll go whatever direction you take it or I'll leave your SJ inner fortresses alone if you'd prefer.

Fidelia

 

[EJCC]

Yeah, I'm sorry too. I definitely had a hand in derailing the conversation.

I think EJCC in particular has been willing to weigh in on it because she has an NF parent, and I have a SJ parent so there are some common places where the two of us could have respectively made mistakes in relating to them (plus she likes to be of service).

You noticed!!

 

[Amira]

But how come when I have tried this with other SJs that you people, they just avoid the question or dismiss it? This is what I want to do, because I am aware that it is very uncomfortable for anyone to feel that someone is upset with them frequently. I feel as if I have discovered some kind of gold mine here!

Honestly, I'm not really sure how to get people to open up IRL if they don't want to. I run into that problem all the time myself, with all the different types. If someone has an answer please tell me too! For the record my parents are Mom - INTJ and Dad - INFP.

EJCC, I agree that there are several interesting similarities I hadn't quite realized before about SJs and NFs. It's cool... My sis is ENFP and we've always gotten along really well and we laugh about it like, "We're opposite personalities, how comes this works?!"

 

[Fidelia]

All three of our families include NTs, NFs, and SJs!

Yes EJCC, that's one of the reasons why I like SJs - you do like to be of service and you do it so well. You specifically have een most generous on several threads.

Amira, I'm really glad at least to get pointed in the right direction and know whether I am doing anything that would prevent someone from opening up. I wish there was a go to representative here for each type that could do the same kind of thing. It seems so straightforward and obvious when you are that type, and so foreign and wrong to understanding their thinking when you aren't that type.

Here are two examples of places where my parents' similar interests (but with different motivations) come out. There are many more.

1) Family - Both place great value on family but it displays itself in different ways. My dad was always the main provider and facilitator as well as paperwork person, while my mum provided the human element and plannned things that brought colour and warmth and developed our potential. My dad was happy to pay for gas to visit our extended family, or factored in phone costs to stay in touch, as well as giving my mum the emotional freedom to visit her family or stay up talking late. He liked it that she laughed so much and that it made her happy. He conveyed to us that family was worthwhile. My mum tried to matchmake us to my dad's family, whom we were less close to and who were less warm and did not get as involved with us. She made that side of the family come alive and talked to his aunties about their growing up years so that she could tell us about it.

2) Geneology - My dad revels in keeping track of who was born when and contacting distant relatives to find out more. He has kept meticulous binders for each strand of both his and my mum's family and travelled on trips to visit relatives. He likes the organizing and record keeping and cataloguing. My mum on the other hand has built on the information he has to access more of the human interest part of things and told stories that make those people real. She visits the places they came from to see if there are connections between those people and who we are now. They complement each other well.

Despite the different communication styles, I actually think we have a lot in common!

 

[raz]

STJ and NFP relationships can work as long as you're willing to accept the fact that a personality that's opposite of you can be beneficial. I mean, we use the same 4 functions, just in different orders. You can use that to semi-understand eachother enough to meet halfway.

I've just always known NFPs to be my "arch nemesis" so to speak. I've just "felt" it my entire life, that they knew about a world completely opposite of my own, and that that world would continuously wreak havoc on my own unless I recognized it. I made that conclusion like 5-6 years ago.

But to answer the question about people seeing my true feelings, I can think of 4-5 people online that I'm not afraid to open up completely to. In real life, oh shit. Actually, now that I think about it, I think it's an ENFJ, INFJ and ENFP that I've opened up the most to. The ENFJ and INFJ are pretty tied. The ENFP and I can connect well, but like I said, it requires that acceptance of an opposition, so we both have to be in the right states of mind. I've have to say though that the ENFP is MUCH better at "guessing" what I'm feeling than the NFJs.