Involuntary psycological absorbtion

[Athenian200]

I've been examining the way people perceive reality, and I've noticed an element that is extremely uncomfortable for me as a J.

Every idea or experience we are exposed to, regardless of how unusual, typical, rational, unreasonable, fitting, or unfitting it is, has a non-negligible degree of control over us, regardless of whether we reject it or embrace it.

Simply becoming aware of something is to acknowledge it's existence, and in that acknowledgment, that thing becomes a part of you. If you embrace it, you simply act according to it, and thus incorporate the mechanism into your self-image. This is pretty straightforward. If you reject it, you merely dissociate it from your ego, and it still becomes a part of yourself you project in a negative way onto the world around you, seeing it in others when they show things you've associated with the thing you rejected... when in reality, what you're seeing is the part of yourself that has incorporated what you didn't want.

In fact, the person you projected it onto may well have been unaware of the idea you attributed to them until they became aware that you thought they possessed that quality (which they are likely to infer or find out in some way even if you don't tell them directly), and then you effectively "spread" the idea to them, and what you rejected becomes a part of them as well. So regardless of what you choose, everything you're exposed to becomes a part of you, and you involuntarily spread it to everyone you come into contact with.

Basically, you could say that human beings are something like FCC Class B devices... they must accept all interference received, including interference that causes undesired operation.

To me, this indicates that human beings actually have very little free will. We essentially have freedom to decide certain things about the structure of our ego. Everything else is pretty much an involuntary process, and the rest of our psychological development is at the mercy of our environment and the people around us.

This is why there are so many ideas floating around that almost no one likes, agrees with, or considers valid if asked directly, but almost everyone sees in and fears from other people.

So, what do you think of this?

 

[Colors]

What's wrong with that?

To have meaning, we must feel that we can affect our environments... To believe that we have this power- we must also believe the environment has an affect on us. No man is an island.

Sorry that's not very deep, but that's what it is. We're all ripples. I don't think everyone fears ideas they disagree with. To hide from these ideas... how can you fight the unknown- how can you make decisions if you choose to be ignorant?

 

[Athenian200]

What's wrong with that?

To have meaning, we must feel that we can affect our environments... To believe that we have this power- we must also believe the environment has an affect on us. No man is an island.

Perhaps there isn't anything wrong with it. Although there are several things that have passed through my environment that I fear have changed my being for the worse, away from what I would value and promote if I hadn't been changed in this way, and that there's nothing I can do about it. In other words, I fear that the world turns us all into monsters that just get worse and worse over time as we indiscriminately absorb what's around us regardless of its nature. Well, morality itself might be artificial, come to think of it. So the real fear might be that everything about us is constantly modified without our consent, and thus any stability we see in ourselves is illusory. And that fear probably stems from our mind's tendency to want to create a clear picture of ourselves and our reality, which it relies on being able to find order in it to be able to do.

Also, what this means is that we do not really affect our environments. We just rationalize that we do affect our environments (because it appears so in the short-term), when it's actually our environments that affect us (if you examine it from the long-term). Even the effects we do have on the environment were influenced by the environment. Basically, it could mean that our environment is in charge, and we're just along for the ride. Ironically, my having any qualm with this state of affairs might well itself be a result of the ideas I've absorbed and accepted. Mainly the illusion long accepted, that I have more control than I actually do. Along with several ideas Americans have about independence and choice.

 

[Lett]

Ironically, my having any qualm with this state of affairs might well itself be a result of the ideas I've absorbed and accepted. Mainly the illusion long accepted, that I have more control than I actually do. Along with several ideas Americans have about independence and choice.

I think you're on to something here. Speaking only for myself, having grown up with an enormous sense of entitlement in a permissive household (no idea how you arrived at the point you're at) left me with an overinflated sense of my own power over my circumstances. Also, probably more importantly, the same sense of my own power over myself.

It took a long and uncomfortable interior purge combined with some awful life circumstances (of my own creation) to escape from this mentality, but I found that accepting my place in the scheme of things granted me a sense of freedom and ease that constantly trying to control everything I'm certain would have never allowed me.

And anyway, I sucked at it.

 

[Azseroffs]

First I have to say, I think you're really on to something. Good observation.

What's wrong with that?

All I think think this really means is that we have little free will. We can only act on what we have sensed and interpretations of those things. We can only choose to accept or reject what we have come into contact with. There is no originality, as nothing can be created. We can only mix and match things in which we have come into contact with.

I would argue that we can't choose at all, and we actually have no free will what so ever. The factor of decision is based entirely on instinctive and learned values.

 

[Salomé]

You could spin this around a hundred different ways and drive yourself crazy.

Simply becoming aware of something is to acknowledge it's existence, and in that acknowledgment, that thing becomes a part of you.

Only if you have weak ego boundaries.

 

[Azseroffs]

Only if you have weak ego boundaries.

It has nothing to do with weak ego boundaries.
It becomes part of you in that you integrate with it or you reject it. Either way it changes your character even if it is a negligible amount.

 

[Athenian200]

I think you're on to something here. Speaking only for myself, having grown up with an enormous sense of entitlement in a permissive household (no idea how you arrived at the point you're at) left me with an overinflated sense of my own power over my circumstances. Also, probably more importantly, the same sense of my own power over myself.

You're rather perceptive to see that in what I wrote. I think I might have grown up in a similar situation. It might have been exacerbated by my tendency to insist on doing all the work on group projects myself in order to avoid letting people I didn't trust have any influence on my grade. Not to mention my insistence on holding myself apart from what other people were doing, and insisting on following what I thought was best rather than allowing myself to be a part of anything (which I came to see as a weakness).

Eventually, I rejected so many things, that the whole world came to seem like a worthless cesspool filled with pathetic, annoying creatures. With me as the only civilized, sane person in it. In reality, I was just being extremely selective about what could be a part of my ego. I suppose that's how I got where I am today... terrified, hiding in something like an ivory tower, with all connections to other people severed, with nothing but my pride, my rationalizations for rejecting and hurting everyone else, and my accumulated insights.

And the worst part is... I'm still doing all of this. Because I don't know how to stop. :blushing: It's the only world I've ever known, and I've only recently become vaguely aware that there's another.

It took a long and uncomfortable interior purge combined with some awful life circumstances (of my own creation) to escape from this mentality, but I found that accepting my place in the scheme of things granted me a sense of freedom and ease that constantly trying to control everything I'm certain would have never allowed me.

And anyway, I sucked at it.

Sounds like a difficult process... I hope I can find a way out. I'm a Judging type, and I might not be able to get out. It could be too late for me, considering the extent to which I've adapted my mentality to this kind of life. But I suppose it's either that, or settle for distracting myself with the Internet for the rest of my life.

Anyway, sorry for the tangent. I'm glad that what I wrote made sense to someone this time. It doesn't always.

 

[Lett]

I could have written everything you just did and it would all be 100% true. I think it probably would be for a lot of people.

It has been helpful for me to think of it as primarily a fear of making external, rather than internal, mistakes. The chance that I could destroy my carefully built construct if I revealed a weakness or otherwise embarrassed myself.

Really the most helpful thing was just going out and making some utterly giant and very public (at least to those that know me) mistakes for the first time in my life over the course of the last few years. Having the whole edifice fall down on my head allowed me to see the sky for the first time, if you'll forgive the poetry.

So, maybe... trading a total acceptance and rationalization of my interior life at the expense of interacting with the world for the internal permission to accept some imperfections and have those be visible to others, and ultimately myself. (christ sake what an awful sentence)

I guess what I'm trying to say in an overlong way is that it can help to f*ck up.

 

[thisGuy]

if anything, it proves that free will does exists. you are not excercising it properly or for long enough

when your charging a battery, the green light needs to come on before you can use it to its full potential, dont it...why do you expect to apply your concept of free will and assume it will work on the first try

 

[Athenian200]

I could have written everything you just did and it would all be 100% true. I think it probably would be for a lot of people.

It has been helpful for me to think of it as primarily a fear of making external, rather than internal, mistakes. The chance that I could destroy my carefully built construct if I revealed a weakness or otherwise embarrassed myself.

Really the most helpful thing was just going out and making some utterly giant and very public (at least to those that know me) mistakes for the first time in my life over the course of the last few years. Having the whole edifice fall down on my head allowed me to see the sky for the first time, if you'll forgive the poetry.

So, maybe... trading a total acceptance and rationalization of my interior life at the expense of interacting with the world for the internal permission to accept some imperfections and have those be visible to others, and ultimately myself. (christ sake what an awful sentence)

I guess what I'm trying to say in an overlong way is that it can help to f*ck up.

You're making a lot of sense to me. I think in my case, I'm so paranoid about the consequences of screwing up (which could very well be death at worst) that I'll probably wait until I'm forced into doing so by some external circumstance. Because I don't think I could ever consciously make myself do it.

I guess... I just don't understand this thing about people, that would cause them to tolerate, help, or otherwise deal with me if they don't know me (and if I'm not paying them), especially if I seem to be doing something stupid, annoying, unhelpful, or pointless. Everyone else seems to depend on it, but it's invisible to me, so the resulting picture confuses me badly.

 

[Sponge]

I used to think that other people would 'infect' me with their thoughts and influence me to not be who I am. It was like a form of identity crisis, that I couldn't work out what was me, and what was the influence that other people have put across me. I often had and still have the urge to lock myself away in a white room, without contact, for a few weeks, or to have some sort of sensory deprevation, so that I could get rid of these influences and be free with my own mind.

Does that sound relevant?

Perhaps I am too easy to influence, or that I take on board other peoples opinions as my own too readily, which is why I've grown to be a bit more stubborn and a lot less flexible. Sometimes I feel like other people rub off on to me as well, like their personalities, if I spend too much time with them. That doesn't really happen any more, but I have more self esteem now.

 

[cascadeco]

Sounds like a difficult process... I hope I can find a way out. I'm a Judging type, and I might not be able to get out. It could be too late for me, considering the extent to which I've adapted my mentality to this kind of life. But I suppose it's either that, or settle for distracting myself with the Internet for the rest of my life.

Athenian, why do you think it may be too late for you?

Although I don't really like bringing cognitive functions into the picture (because I think they're only a small piece of psychology anyway - and it's not like something like you're describing is exclusive to any one type), they can be an easy way to discuss more intangible things. I think it's been mentioned that Ni is a function that can take a long while to make sense of things, and develop a complete internal picture. Once that internal picture is created and built, it can be fairly solid and it's why any data that comes in that could alter that picture can be alarming/unsettling. Also, due to the amount of thought and amount of intricacies in the development of that internal picture (which would possibly be Ti), it takes a long while to be fully built up (if it's ever completely built up), and it will take an equally long time to reconstruct a replacement for it - if that makes sense. I could call this internal construction a view of reality, in the biggest picture, or you can work your way down to smaller issues.

Although it may seem futile or hopeless that you'll ever adapt a new mentality, these things take time. And it can be a terribly difficult internal process to work through. It might be of assistance to just start writing out all of your thoughts, and over time - maybe a period of months or a few years - you'll start working through things as part of the process. As an example, from about age 23-26 I was going through something similar - feeling I was needing to rebuild my internal world, perspectives, and life view - up from scratch - because my prior foundation was something I could no longer believe in anymore and I needed a replacement, as it were. And that replacement wasn't a known...it was something that would only come into focus as I went through the internal process of re-working everything. That takes time, and can be painful. As part of the process I needed an 'outlet' - and for me that was writing. I wrote probably 75 pages, single-spaced, of my thoughts - for me it was mostly philosophical/ethical/sociological/psychological/metaphysical things. I just needed to deconstruct, sort through, and reconstruct again.

Give yourself permission if you can to just let it work out in its own time. If you WANT to have a new mentality, you CAN. I believe that, anyway. But it would likely mean digging down to the very foundation of what you believe, figure out why you believe or think it, and then you might end up creating new assumptions/beliefs, or start with new basic premises on which to found your mentality, and build from there. Have to get down to the root to analyze (I tend to think).

 

[antireconciler]

You're rather perceptive to see that in what I wrote. I think I might have grown up in a similar situation. It might have been exacerbated by my tendency to insist on doing all the work on group projects myself in order to avoid letting people I didn't trust have any influence on my grade. Not to mention my insistence on holding myself apart from what other people were doing, and insisting on following what I thought was best rather than allowing myself to be a part of anything (which I came to see as a weakness).

Eventually, I rejected so many things, that the whole world came to seem like a worthless cesspool filled with pathetic, annoying creatures. With me as the only civilized, sane person in it. In reality, I was just being extremely selective about what could be a part of my ego. I suppose that's how I got where I am today... terrified, hiding in something like an ivory tower, with all connections to other people severed, with nothing but my pride, my rationalizations for rejecting and hurting everyone else, and my accumulated insights.

And the worst part is... I'm still doing all of this. Because I don't know how to stop. :blushing: It's the only world I've ever known, and I've only recently become vaguely aware that there's another.

Maybe it goes something like this: where is your dignity, your power, and your beauty, if you are no better than the dryness of the world around you?

Be calm though, please, Athenian. In part, you have not forgiven, and reactivity still swirls around you. It only works through your insistence that you cannot change it, that the laws which have defined the past for you must perpetuate. This is not true, Athenian, and you can awaken from this. You are letting everything perpetuate, and you focus on that as though its pure repetition gave it strength and power. It has none, Athenian. The second you withdraw your willingness to sustain it, it falls away. You are scaring yourself! But you are feeding off of this the same way you have fed off what came before it. As you have punished the world and found your bond with the world unbreakable, you now turn this upon yourself. It is a suffocation like a pressure from above compressing you inward, and it is always threatening to destroy you.

There is one movement which can take you away from this, and it is the most challenging in all the world at the beginning, so listen carefully. As you picture yourself compressed and threatened, picture also that you are held in miniature in the hands of another person you do not know. Now sense your breath. Breath in ... and breath out .... and in .... and out. With only that to guide you, ask, "who is it who is breathing?" Decide that it is the person who holds the image of the person threatened in their upright hands who is breathing, and thus, you are not the person threatened, but you have created this as an image which is not you. I made this up just now, but it helped me deal with a recreation in my own mind of the feelings your words evoked in me, so maybe you like it for its beauty, even if you don't necessarily practice it.

Here is another one. Look down at the ground. The ground is threatening, the whole of the world is trying to get inside you, and the whole of it is alien. Stand on the ground which burns your feet in its alienness. Close your eyes, and picture that the ground suddenly lets you go, and you fall through it into a blackness, and then splash into water, like a lake at night, but warm enough. When you look up at the sky, there is a picture of you, probably in a room, standing on the ground being compressed by the alien world. You turn away and swim off.

The whole idea is this: even if it is seems frightfully real, you can always choose to stand your ground and reject it outright. You'll say, "but that's crazy! I can't just reject what feels so real!" But that's fine. Whatever labels it throws out are okay. Maybe you are crazy. Fine. Maybe you are weak. Fine. They have no meaning for you. "I am I", you say, "I am. And I reject this vision. It is not real. It is not real, because I do not like it." Insist always that reality cater itself to what pleases you or you will never be happy with reality. If you don't like it, reject it, and you will never be far from the truth. You can then go about uncovering what about it made it incorrect. As it turns out, it is always a matter of perception, and this makes some sense. We cannot make reality do something chaotic or arbitrary, but we can change our perception of it.

Good hunting,