[ENTP] development of Fe in ENTPs

[entropie]

I'm frankly surprised at how many NTs go to such great lengths to deny the existence of their emotions (and how many others actually buy it!)

You're an ass

 

[Apollanaut]

Guilty as charged.

Okay I do this one thing that I think is Ne but just to drive my ISTP crazy.

When I empty the dishwasher I just put the dishes wherever there happens to be empty space in the cabinet. So... after awhile they all migrate throughout the kitchen as cabinet space becomes available, due to using more or less bowls that week. The cups may start to the top left but eventually they are all at the bottom right after like six weeks. I have stopped to consider if you could apply some sort of mathmatical model to map out the transtion as they migrate and thus predict the next possible location of a cup in like four weeks.

He would seriously go crazy over this. I think it may be Ne's doing...

I know it would drive me crazy! I don't let my ENTP anywhere near the dishwasher, either to load or unload it. I f I go away for a few days, the cabinets are just as you described (that's if he even bothered to do any washing up at all!). :steam:

 

[Paisley]

Sounds like a P type, the one that just needs a good yelling!

 

[sculpting]

Okay I posted the below crap up at the the personality/MBTI area as a theory of some of the personality disorders based on the nutty ENTP and my more reasonable ENTPs as well as some self introspection into what it's like living as an ENFP. If amplified I could see how base behaviors of both types could morph into personality disorders (which I didnt even believe in till last week)

Overrview:

Ne makes you look eternally outward and become absorbed in the external object.

So imagine for ENTP/ENFPwith a dominant Ne, you look to the external world for continual affirmation, either intellectually (Ti) or emotionally (Fi).

ENTP=Compensetory Narcissistic personality disorder, hypersensitive to critisism of thier Ti

ENFP=Borderline Personality Disorder, hypersenstive to rejection of Fi

Both are marked by extreme withdrawal upon any perceived rejection/criticism, being very difficult to "fix", and feelings of hollow, empty nothingness given the lack of an internal compass.

Theory 1:

For a healthy individual you strengthen the tertiary function and at some point become more self sufficient and stronger and able to be less sensitive to either critisism of your intellectual ideas (Ti) or rejection of your emotional advances (Fi). You become less dependent upon external affirmation of your self worth.

For an unhealthy individual you never develop that tertiary skill and end up profoundly dependent upon Ti/Fi always searching for external confirmation through Ne.

Solution: Better development of Fe/Te tertiary function

Theory 2 (more along lenorre Thompson's book):

Normal ENTP: Ne, Ti, Fe
Normal ENFP: Ne, Fi, Te

NPD ENTP: Ne, Fe, Ti
BPD ENFP: Ne, Te, Fi

In these cases the person is very undeveloped in the second function due to the Ne pulling them way outside of themselves, so they use the tertiary defensively but poorly. They are very insecure about the secondary function and are very hypersensitive to either emotional (Fi) or intellectual (Ti) criticism.

Solution: Better development and balance of Ti/Fi and more healthy use of the tertiary function. Lennorre seems to think the tertiary gets used really badly at times to support the primary.


Do you guys have thoughts on this based upon how your Fe has grown in? I thought thoery 1 may have merit at first but I am really leaning towards theory 2 now, after spending a few days talking with (ie experimenting on) the ENTP population and watching myself under stress.

 

[Little Linguist]

Your analysis is correct. Your answer/solution is not.

 

[sculpting]

Your analysis is correct. Your answer/solution is not.

crap I was editing! which one is correct/not correct?
I think this is really important in understanding even normal Ne folks , it's just that the PDs give us more extreme behavorial examples to study

 

[zarc]

Do you guys have thoughts on this based upon how your Fe has grown in? I thought thoery 1 may have merit at first but I am really leaning towards theory 2 now, after spending a few days talking with (ie experimenting on) the ENTP population and watching myself under stress.

Why can't both be right? I see them as the same coin, differently sided. Your first theory has the individual healthy to begin with which I'd take it to mean that their Aux is already developed well, while the second one isn't healthy to begin with and their Aux is underdeveloped. So..

1. You develop your Aux well enough and then you strengthen your Tert, you're healthier for it.

2. You strengthen your Tert and forgo developing your Aux, you're unhealthier by it.

I don't think it's about Ne (or any X Dom) pulling the individual away from outside of themselves (or inside for Introverts) but a matter of repressing their Aux covertly and stressing their Tert overtly. The Tert would be pulling you outside of yourself (inside for Is) in a manner that's unfamiliar to you and to others. That is, if you were balanced to begin with or more often than not, you wouldn't seem like yourself and people who are more familiar with you notice (your Tert). To flip that, if you were mostly unbalanced and people were familiar with you, you wouldn't seem like yourself when you express positive change (with your Aux).

 

[sculpting]

Could it be both possibilities are real but show differently?

Theory 1 is actually normal development with growth of Fe a bit later, sometimes ackwardly, but there and matured by mid thirties.

Thoery 2 is anomolous and is a defense mechanism to protect Ti/Fi. I honestly can indetify with theory 2 myself, as I find myself using Te defensively as needed. It works okay and I don't think I qualify as too loony I have used Te since my early teens.

The reason this is relevant is crazy NPD ENTP actually looked at the list of functions and self identified as Ne> Fe> Ti with an occasional Se. The other ENTPs did not do that. However it fits with the NPD ability to manipulate others in an attempt to protect the fragile self.

I need to put more thought into Ne externalization as I think there may be validity here. I also need to understand what is going on with Se as it is being used oddly by the ENTPs.

 

[simulatedworld]

You're an ass

lol it's true though. I know many NTs who go to great lengths to squelch all emotion from their dealings with the world, and it creates a distorted image of the temperament to some. I've been told I can't be ENTP because I'm not stoic enough; what a joke. Look at Edahn.

 

[zarc]

Could it be both possibilities are real but show differently?

Yup, that's what I was saying.

Theory 1 is actually normal development with growth of Fe a bit later, sometimes ackwardly, but there and matured by mid thirties.

Thoery 2 is anomolous and is a defense mechanism to protect Ti/Fi. I honestly can indetify with theory 2 myself, as I find myself using Te defensively as needed. It works okay and I don't think I qualify as too loony I have used Te since my early teens.

We're mostly in agreement. I don't believe in strict functional order beyond the first three or that the development occurs gradually as we age. Maturation is dependent on the individual. It's more so what experiences trigger the necessary awareness needed to cultivate functions that we either place or have placed on us in a positive, neutral or negative manner.

The reason this is relevant is crazy NPD ENTP actually looked at the list of functions and self identified as Ne> Fe> Ti with an occasional Se. The other ENTPs did not do that. However it fits with the NPD ability to manipulate others in an attempt to protect the fragile self.

Y'know I was thinking of creating a thread on all the possible manifestations of Type illnesses through functional impairment but you beat me to the punch with Ne Doms. I'm still not finished with the bunch. >_>

As for occasional Se, could it have perhaps have been Si? Being their Inferior, it'd push at their psyche after they've strained their limit operating under Ne-Fe with repressed Ti.

I need to put more thought into Ne externalization as I think there may be validity here. I also need to understand what is going on with Se as it is being used oddly by the ENTPs.

When you do figure it out, speak to me about it. I'm highly curious.

Sigh. Them oddballs and all their sightings.

 

[sculpting]

As for occasional Se, could it have perhaps have been Si? Being their Inferior, it'd push at their psyche after they've strained their limit operating under Ne-Fe with repressed Ti.



When you do figure it out, speak to me about it. I'm highly curious.

Sigh. Them oddballs and all their sightings.

I think it really is Se, Synbarch had a post along those lines but now I can't find it anymore. All the ENTPs quiried picked up on Se given the descriptions but list it as fourth. My ENTP buddy says she used it to hide from having to face the Fe. She would distract herself by throwing herself into an activity fully as to not have to face the unfamiliar, weird emotions. It was an avoidance tactic. However the best parties involve mixing a few estps with a herd of entps.

I dont know what an ENFP would use , assuming there is symmetry present. Se is so outside of my world. I dont get it at all.

 

[simulatedworld]

Y'know I was thinking of creating a thread on all the possible manifestations of Type illnesses through functional impairment but you beat me to the punch with Ne Doms. I'm still not finished with the bunch. >_>

Why must these unusual functional orders necessarily be classified as "illnesses" or otherwise abnormal/incorrect? What if someone's natural functional order is, say, Ne Fe Te Ti? I don't understand where you get the assumption that this is necessarily related to repressed or otherwise deficient functions for a given type. I remember JF saying that he identified about equally well with Ne, Ni, Te and Ti, for instance.

 

[sculpting]

Why must these unusual functional orders necessarily be classified as "illnesses" or otherwise abnormal/incorrect? What if someone's natural functional order is, say, Ne Fe Te Ti? I don't understand where you get the assumption that this is necessarily related to repressed or otherwise deficient functions for a given type. I remember JF saying that he identified about equally well with Ne, Ni, Te and Ti, for instance.

There seems to be a pretty natural order from what I see so far but I am still pretty new to the functional stuff. I think it bears for further study honestly, which is why I treat all my coworkers like my little lab bunnies. If you could mix the four up any way you wanted, I'd expect we wouldnt have 16 fairly clean personality types. (hey INTPs can you do the math for me?)

I am working off introspection and my own observations of a really screwed up entp vs healthy entps but n=5 or so, so I need more case studies to really identify if this is meaningful or not. I like the idea of 64 different functions based upon where the functions fall. complexity is the spice of life!

 

[Apollanaut]

Theory 2 (more along lenorre Thompson's book):

Normal ENTP: Ne, Ti, Fe
Normal ENFP: Ne, Fi, Te

NPD ENTP: Ne, Fe, Ti
BPD ENFP: Ne, Te, Fi

In these cases the person is very undeveloped in the second function due to the Ne pulling them way outside of themselves, so they use the tertiary defensively but poorly. They are very insecure about the secondary function and are very hypersensitive to either emotional (Fi) or intellectual (Ti) criticism.

Solution: Better development and balance of Ti/Fi and more healthy use of the tertiary function. Lennorre seems to think the tertiary gets used really badly at times to support the primary. [/I]

Theory 2 seems to be how it works. No matter how well developed the tertiary function, it gets very defensive under pressure. It tells the dominant to carry on doing what it's doing, the problem is everyone else's fault. When the going gets tough, it's advice is always the same, regardless of function type: Run Away!

That can mean literally running away (for extraverts) or running into the security of your inner world (for introverts). This approach serves to relieve our stress in the short term (another name for the tertiary is the "Relief" function), but ensures that the same issues will crop up again later as we have not really dealt with them or learned anything new.

Developing and using our auxiliary seems to be the only effective long-term solution to the recurring dilemmas in our lives. It forces us to take a different approach than we are accustomed to; it also allows us to deal with our less preferred territory (Introversion or Extraversion) on it's own terms, instead of fobbing it off or avoiding it. It means taking the High Road instead of searching for an escape route. It is not easy; it forces us to make compromises and adjustments and - God forbid! - it may even allow us to admit that we were wrong or mistaken about something, which Westerners find very hard to do.

Most importantly of all, it is the path of growth for all types. Once the auxiliary is working nicely to balance out our dominant approach, all the other functions start to fall in line and start working the way they were designed to do. Otherwise, they tend to get out of control and go to war with each other. Look around at other people: how many of us can honestly say that we are not riven by unresolvable internal conflicts on a frequent basis?

I have done some counselling work, and if I know a person's type then I always try and get them to apply their auxiliary to their problems. I don't always use the technical jargon, of course, but that is the single best piece of advice I can offer. It supplies a person with the necessary tools to sort out their own dilemmas, or at least to know where to go to find a solution.

To use myself as an example, my auxiliary is Fe. My natural tendency is to try and solve all my problems on my own using tertiary Ti. If I can't solve them, then Ti will convince me they're not worth it, just ignore them completely and hope they go away on their own. Despite myself, I still do this a lot of the time. Sometimes, however, I "wake up" and remember Lenore's advice to use Fe instead of Ti. That usually means I need to get up off my ass and go talk to someone I trust for their advice and opinions on my dilemma. Even if they don't provide the answer, simply doing this enables me to see the problem in a new light and to decide on an appropriate course of action.

 

[zarc]

^ I agree. But what's wrong with Theory 1? I took it to mean that an individual is balanced with their Aux to begin with and is strengthening their Tert. I just disagree with the Solution for it. And Theory 2 has the individual unbalanced to begin with, needing to reconnect to their Aux before developing their Tert.

The theories seem to me the same coin, differently sided.

 

[Apollanaut]

^ I agree. But what's wrong with Theory 1? I took it to mean that an individual is balanced with their Aux to begin with and is strengthening their Tert. I just disagree with the Solution for it. And Theory 2 has the individual unbalanced to begin with, needing to reconnect to their Aux before developing their Tert.

The theories seem to me the same coin, differently sided.

Nothing really, I suppose I just didn't like the way it was worded as a solution to a problem (I can be a bit of a pedant at times). Also it isn't really necessary, as I stated in my previous answer, once we've achieved an effective balance between dom and aux, the other functions are freed up to develop in the way they are meant to for each MBTI type. For most people, the tertiary would be the next function to naturally develop, followed by the so-called inferior. The point is that we can now do this consciously instead of reflexively of defensively.

To use myself as an example yet again (I'm sure you're aware that we INFJs are prone to make our points using personal anecdotes) I deliberately work on expanding my Ti skills by tackling puzzles, crosswords and by playing games which require tactical skills (Ti is good at tactics, while Te is better for strategy - at which I suck BTW). This is not a chore, I really enjoy solving puzzles - the tertiary is child-like, remember, and loves to be let out to play.

Ti can also be quite hands-on, as well as mental (ask any ISTP), for me this can mean working with tools, fixing analytical instruments at work, "guesstimating" the weight of something by holding it in my hands - these are all Ti-based skills.

Another Te/Ti comparison (sorry, I'm going off on tangents again, but what-the-hey?) is with self-assembly furniture.

The instruction manual is usually written, of necessity, in Te language: step-by-step logical instructions that are the same for each model.

However, as we all know, there is always some little glitch which isn't covered by the manual, a missing piece, a hole that hasn't been drilled out properly or something which got broken in transit. Sorting these out requires Ti - situational logic which enables us to solve one-off problems.

Next comes function number four.

I am at the stage of life where my 4th Se function is becoming more and more available for conscious use. I can now switch it on at will - I try to do this whenever I am outdoors so that I can notice all the rich details I used to tune out.

To develop it further, I took up Tai-Chi for a while, learned how to use my peripheral vision to scan the environment, ride my bicycle to work every day and deliberately try different routes or ways of pedalling. I am taking driving lessons for the first time in my life.

None of my Se development could have happened without Fe - learning from other people by observation, training or by simply asking someone how they do it, instead of struggling with it on my own.

I've a long way to go before I can even begin to properly develop my four Shadow functions, but when I feel the need to do so, I know to use my Fe first: to find someone who is skilled in these functions and ask them for advice and guidance, rather than waste precious time, effort and energy trying (and probably failing) to figure them out for myself.

This, to my mind, is the true value of knowing one's type. As Lenore Thomson said, rather than placing us into one of 16 narrow little boxes, applied type knowledge actually allows us to break free from the trap of compulsively following the stereotyped path dictated by our dominant function. Instead, it provides us with a roadmap and a practical set of tools for increasing our options and realising more and more of our innate potential.

Whether we choose to do this or not is, of course, entirely up to us!

 

[Ardea]

Ne understood the theme of your list after the first 3 points, got bored and didn't read the rest.

TRUE

 

[ByMySword]

Totally unpredictable, even for an INFJ.

AMEN!!!!

Cannot tell left from right.

Sure they can. They call it "this way" or "that way".

Um.......bravo?

I'm at a loss for words.

 

[Ardea]

Sure they can. They call it "this way" or "that way".

Hey! That's just me!!! :steam:

 

[sculpting]

Developing and using our auxiliary seems to be the only effective long-term solution to the recurring dilemmas in our lives. It forces us to take a different approach than we are accustomed to; it also allows us to deal with our less preferred territory (Introversion or Extraversion) on it's own terms, instead of fobbing it off or avoiding it. It means taking the High Road instead of searching for an escape route. It is not easy; it forces us to make compromises and adjustments and - God forbid! - it may even allow us to admit that we were wrong or mistaken about something, which Westerners find very hard to do.

But-in the instance of a personality disorder (theory 2), you can't just tell them to strengthen Ti or Fi in this case as you just make the problem worse. For NPD, you can't say go practice using Ti as they already think Ti is the total shit -in an "alter ego "sort of way I guess. They are terrified to let others challenge Ti, but does using it more fix that problem at all? Then they use the over strengthened Fe to disarm others and manipulate them so that the Ti is not attacked-even if the attack was imaginary.

Instead Ti needs to be strengthened but also balanced somehow????

So strengthen Ni to pull the focus away from the external world and maybe strengthen Fi so they to rely less upon other's ideals or so it balances the abusinvely used Fe?? I just don't know but I feel like the solution may be amdists all the pieces here.