Tell-Tale Signs of the Types

[Urchin]

Well, so far, online:
INTP - Vague open-ended comments that are usually humorous. They may be inconsistent posters that appear and disappear unless the subject is notably interesting to them. Very passive.

An INTP appears in order to comment.

Also, we avoid arguments.

The INTP disappears in a flourish of bubbles.

 

[htb]

The idea of N as smart and theoretical while S is less sophisticated also leads to mistyping.

A general hypothesis I reject, as well. But concrete thinking and verbalization are qualities which have as their primary application very down-to-earth pursuits. One simply doesn't find sensors, particularly ISTPs, making much use of pure theory or other abstractions. At higher intelligence they have, as would an intuitive, a greater capacity and therefore a greater likelihood of doing so. But it is not natural to them; to say so is to superordinate a theory over the empirical.

daredevil and risk taking

This, I agree, is not universal. But its particular inapplicability doesn't refute the substantiation of other qualities -- undistributed middle and all that. And your data is dependent on subjects identified as ISTPs to actually be ISTPs; there, established descriptions have weight. I tend to lean more towards Myers' pairing, in this case of the ISTP with the INTP, rather than Keirsey's fraternal quadruplets.

Edit: As a clarification, threads do run through all NTs, but Keirsey's description (as I have noted elsewhere before) seems to favor the INTP when one compares living examples.

 

[ygolo]

*nod* They really need to strip the intelligence part out of MBTI and such. It confuses people way too much and you need to know a whole hell of a lot behind intelligence views and distributions to make any use of it.

Note: I am not supporting the steroetype of ISTPs being plunbers/mechanics, etc, but part of the problem here, I think, is that mechanics, plumbers (and perhaps daredevils) don't get the respect they deserve.

Do you think these jobs are so easy, intellectually speaking? I think it takes more than muscle to get these jobs done.

As for the Openness-IQ corellation, I think it largely because IQ tests are biased towards the abstract, and many IQ/puzzle questions are intentionally written to violate "common sense" (or at least the closing off of possibilities based on personal experience).

What if IQ tests were instead to "solve" a large number of crimes, or to fix a bunch of machinery? Would there be a corellation with Openness?

I think there would be a lot less. A lot of times, the shortcuts people make by following common sense to close off possibilities (as long as its not carried to an extreme) yeild faster results in these situations (instead of, perhaps, no results what-so-ever).

 

[htb]

Do you think these jobs are so easy, intellectually speaking? I think it takes more than muscle to get these jobs done.

This is where, contra what I posted above, Keirsey's theory of tactical intelligence seems veritable. Take a reasonably smart pencil-neck and drop him into a room of civil engineers, or mechanics, or foremen talking their profession: he will come off like a fool.

 

[Recluse]

On the topic of discriminating between ISTPs and INTPs through observation:

Based on my (admittedly limited) observations, ISTPs seem more focused and intense, more in touch with the realities of a situation--and less inclined to gaze off into space as thoughts ricochet off the main topic into the void, to emerge later completely transformed and at times either seemingly or wackily (depending on one's point of view) way off target. I wouldn't use the term "absent-minded" to describe any of the ISTPs that I've known, nor the term "pragmatic" to describe a textbook INTP. That said, a well-balanced type could, conceivably, adopt another type's thought process as the situation warrants, confusing the matter.

 

[ptgatsby]

Do you think these jobs are so easy, intellectually speaking?

It's all relative and I am not familiar enough with these profession to make a judgment. At the task level, I'd say yes... but I don't know for sure and haven't read anything in particular to plumbing.

What if IQ tests were instead to "solve" a large number of crimes, or to fix a bunch of machinery? Would there be a corellation with Openness?

If you change the relationship, then no, there wouldn't be. I don't see the relevance, however. In both cases, higher IQ within the groups relate to better performance (crime solving and machinists both being tested before, FWIW). It'd just be a crappy IQ test (colinear with performance). In any case, it's just a matter of reference point.

--

However, those are problems best left for their own thread. What I was referring to is the concept that IQ is part of personality/a subset of personality. Unlike N/S, the distribution for intelligence doesn't match the general population, meaning that if you model Ns IQ vs Ss IQ, the normal IQ curve is very very different with the peak below average, but a gigantic tail end into high-IQ areas.

IOW, Ss have an extreme range of intelligences while Ns have a very narrow range. As above, the reason why some mechanics will be better is because IQ ability is not directly linked to personality. The relationship is complicated. Ns answer pretty directly "I am not a good mechanic"... but that doesn't mean that one can't be a good mechanic and have a high IQ. You inherently assume that Ss (ie: mechanics) will have lower IQs whereas Ss have a rather extreme range of available IQs, compared to Ns that bunch around 110. Instead of looking at intelligence for what it is we attempt to attack the concept, despite that it applies even within those sub-sets. Mechanics are not treated unfairly - the range of mechanic ability is gigantic, with high IQs at the top. Being "an S" doens't make one at the top, but neither does being an N. Testing different things. Personality needs to stay out of intelligence entirely.

The "mechanic" aptitude is spread along the Ss axis, IOW, ranging from sub 80 IQ to 120+IQ... in large numbers. Ns, however, are spread from the sub 100-120+ IQ... in a giant peak. But they make lousy mechanics. That makes the statement: Mechanics have lower IQs / IQ tests are unfair to mechanics technically correct. And yet, totally wrong. High IQ mechanics are those in mechanical engineering - a high IQ degree - or in a technical school, the mid-range IQ.

MBTI simply created an entire category for people to feel special in, what with all the veiled intellectualisms... But it didn't actually measure it. As such, it has no value and no meaning, doesn't relate properly and confuses the hell out of just that one dimension.

(An analogy would be taking all of the personality disorders associated with high IQ and testing for them and calling it the "high iq group". Is it surprising when they don't do better in RL, despite IQ being related to performance/achievement? Is it surprising when there is an unusual population distribution? Yah.)

Oops, I let a bit too much come out this time, perhaps... [/MBTI rant over]

To summarize don't use IQ to type, it doesn't help (except to identify low IQ people, I suppose )

This is where, contra what I posted above, Keirsey's theory of tactical intelligence seems veritable. Take a reasonably smart pencil-neck and drop him into a room of civil engineers, or mechanics, or foremen talking their profession: he will come off like a fool.

Is the opposite true? Yes. That means it has to do with the transfer - ie: the skills, the experience and the environment.

I'll even go as far as saying that dropping a physics doctorate into my job wouldn't be at all scary, but I'm pretty sure trying to teach any of his material would be way beyond me. And would be, 3-4 years later... probably forever. The doctor would be able to my job by the end of the week. (My job falls in the 90-120 range, physics doctorates in the 125-150 range, roughly.)

And of course, FWIW, if you are talking about the mechanical engineer/civil engineers... their group IQ is around 120-130.

I also remember a study with car mechanics a long time back that had no formal training, in which they were average or above in IQ. I also remember technical schools doing it, in which mechanics (avionics, etc) were notably higher, roughly on part with arts student IQs.

It might be worth picking groups that aren't already above average when using examples.

 

[The Ü™]

Most of the ISTPs, if not all, I've been around do indeed have a more "sporty" attitude, and they also engage in competitive sports, which I think is more in the domain of ISTPs, because it's tactical strategy, that is strategy to be immediately applied.

Naturally, this is the same sort of skill that is required for computer programming, surgery, biology, or other applied sciences.

I think the daredevil stereotype is more in the domain of ESxP. The ISTP is not reckless.

 

[ygolo]

To summarize don't use IQ to type, it doesn't help (except to identify low IQ people, I suppose )

I agree.

It might be worth picking groups that aren't already above average when using examples.

I was actually pointing out that I believe that mechanics (and probably plumbers) are smarter than average. I wanted to make sure that no one felt talked down to or put down by being placed in the same categories as them.
(But I'm guessing it is just the confinement to very particular tasks that people object to).

Also, I was hoping to continue the IQ related discussions here.

 

[Pseudonym_Alpha]

INFJs can tend to look somehow serious, but stoned at the same time.

Funny you should say serious. I always get the, Im either upset or Im being serious, no matter what mood Im in, my friend throw me into one of those 2 categories.

 

[Wolf]

I snorted. It was amusing - not as amusing as Wolf taking it seriously, however.

I am so screwed up today that I didn't even realize this. Someone, please, pass me an aspirin.

 

[Recluse]

I am so screwed up today that I didn't even realize this. Someone, please, pass me an aspirin.

 

[Natrushka]

I am so screwed up today that I didn't even realize this. Someone, please, pass me an aspirin.

It happens. Hope today is better.

 

[Wolf]

Thanks. Something is off in my nervous system - I feel like I've been hit in the face with a board of wood and in the back of the head with a sledge hammer.

It was worse yesterday.

 

[Natrushka]

Maybe you shouldn't drink beer. <hehheh>

In seriousness, eat anything 'new' lately? Thinking 'food allergy'.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

*nod* They really need to strip the intelligence part out of MBTI and such.

That would be a good move.

 

[Athenian200]

Well, I think you can tell an ExFJ by a tendency to be "aggressively nice." It's an endearing quality, really.

 

[Wolf]

In seriousness, eat anything 'new' lately? Thinking 'food allergy'.

Nope, it's been going on for 3 weeks now, too.

 

[Usehername]

EVERY SINGLE ENFJ I have ever met is firstly very conservative with their worship in a new group setting/new church. But, when they are invited to open up and be themselves without being judged, they are the most energetic, outwardly expressive worshipers I have ever seen.

That's, like, 8 for 8 people I've known who are Christian ENFJs.

 

[Maverick]

What would you say are some tell-tale signs of the other types?

ENTJ: Army walk; barks instead of talking - content abstract
INTJ: Private person up to evil
ENTP: Moves and speaks like Tigger from Winnie the Pooh
INTP: Antisocial intellectual, seemingly stoned

ENFJ: Lovable airy person that is easy to offend
INFJ: Brooding neurotic, even more easy to offend. Caution: Explosive reactivity if mixed with ENTJ
ENFP: Tigger from Winnie the Pooh with proper social skills
INFP: Innocent looking emotional stirrer

 

[INTJMom]

Okay, since I'm still just trying to learn to type people, and finding it quite difficult (especially in older people, as is expected) I found myself wondering... Rather than me trying to familiarize myself with all the types... Is there a shortcut? Or... are there specific tell-tale signs of type?

For example, in my blog, you guys picked up on my habitual reading of nutrition facts as a tell-tale ISTJ trait. What would you say are some tell-tale signs of the other types?

There's a book for lay-people called SpeedReading People that's supposed to
help you better read what type a person might be,
and also how to communicate with them in the most effectual way.