[INTP] INTP Central

[miss fortune]

I hadn't thought of THAT option....

 

[white]

isn't the world better off with fun, Aelan? Or are you the fun police

ok- that's it! You're getting carted off to ESTJ central!

When an ENTP mentions fun, it is time to back off 50 paces and bring out the PHaSAR.

I'd sooner be an ISFJ than an ESTJ.

*hoping she cuffs me and pats me down good*

I'd cuff you and leave you there. Anticipation.

There's a lot of truth in this. Thanks, aelan. For me, INTPc fosters growth for me a bit more than here. However, it's always good to come here for a wider persepctive on things.

I probably should hang out here a bit more than I do.

Its why I said different strokes... some folks on INTPc helped shed a light into my thinking and helped me a great deal. At the end, we just go where the people we like are... it isn't a choice of better/not... just what fits better in that phase of life you're in...

 

[Delilah]

ESTJ.

Ouch! Shot to the ovaries!

I totally agree though.

I'd cuff you and leave you there. Anticipation.

Sexy.

 

[miss fortune]

but... but... ENTP fun is wonderfully, dangerously, recklessly and unthoughtoutedly fun!


how could you shoot me for that?


And I'm sure that an ISFJ could fit in at ESTJ central quite nicely as well... you could talk about organizing stuff and class reunions!

 

[FemMecha]

Not an INTP here (so disregard as needed), but it is still interesting to read comparisons of the two sites. I am introverted enough that the way I function on each site is basically the same except that I keep a blog here where I talked about my cat. I glance around for interesting thread topics, find one that makes me think, read over the thread, spend time analyzing it in my mind, post, then move on to find the next topic. I enjoy it well enough to stick around. I have a small group of people that are my friends on both sites, and basically ignore the larger social dynamics and dramas. When one site is in a tizzy with social drama, I hang out at the other one. From what I observe about the central, dominant group on each site is established differently based in part on the age of the forum and the types that post. At INTPc there is much weight given to seniority and a consensus on INTPism based on both an MBTI and cultural model of communication. Here the dominant dynamic seems based on a small group that posts a great deal. The threads burst in length here almost like it is a synchronous chat session. I usually spend time thinking before I post, and at INTPc I feel a little more pressure to add a layer of social analysis as a non-INTP to avoid misinterpretation (based on type assumptions) before posting besides just focus on the topic. I'm usually looking for people interested in discussing ideas rather than forming social dynamics and banter. The friendships form after the ideas because that is how you get to know what goes on inside the person, not aligning with whomever is best at social dynamics for social power. The friendships that mean a lot to me that I have made online were inspired by reading and discussing ideas and gaining respect for how certain people think.

 

[TPol]

Perhaps it is a question sometimes of what we need and are seeking from each site, how we are different at each time and place we are in as well.
[clip]
Regardless, it is different strokes for different folks. I see no reason to have to force a divide/competition/choice. People will move between places, IRL, online, as they grow and outgrow each thing.

I've met good people on both. I think on both I've been welcome.

As long as the sites meet the members' needs, and people are around in one form or other, isn't that what matters.

Perhaps our own acceptance / rejection, and insistence on seeing each site as bad/good, is merely our own limitations on adaptability. In that, it is easier to adapt in a space for all types than for one type, I guess?

Its why I said different strokes... some folks on INTPc helped shed a light into my thinking and helped me a great deal. At the end, we just go where the people we like are... it isn't a choice of better/not... just what fits better in that phase of life you're in...

Good points, imo. I came here, originally, because some who came to INTPc that I'd liked came here and stayed without going back there. I wanted to still read what they had to say, so I showed up here. I really like several there, though, too. There is like a quiet, thought-provoking, humorous home for me where I'm with those who "get me." The world (as a whole made up of all personality types) often doesn't. So, I guess I'm more cautious here still. Maybe that'll change.

 

[Xander]

If you don't pick things apart, all you end up with is a black box full of superstition. As Mac has said, building comes later.

When I was a child I used to take everything apart - toys, radios, electronic components. I didn't always have the skill to put them back together again. All I had was an insatiable curiosity. This frustrated my dad no end. Eventually he bought me a mechano set.

What is my point? I don't always have one.

This is why I don't hang around with INTPs much though. Picking things apart IS ALSO a black box full of superstition. There is not "I'm immune cause I'm rational" it doesn't exist.

I feel as stifled by a bunch of people sermonising about logic and rational objective thinking (which they never achieve) as I do by any other bunch of zealots. It doesn't matter to me what your zealous about only whether or not you're a zealot.

I avoid religious groups for a reason. The whole blind faith thing makes me uncomfortable. I avoid scientists for the same reason. Those who are unwilling to challenge their own perceptions and tenants are not likely to enjoy my company. In such I found INTPs to be as defensive as anyone else.

 

[Salomé]

This is why I don't hang around with INTPs much though. Picking things apart IS ALSO a black box full of superstition. There is not "I'm immune cause I'm rational" it doesn't exist.

I feel as stifled by a bunch of people sermonising about logic and rational objective thinking (which they never achieve) as I do by any other bunch of zealots. It doesn't matter to me what you're zealous about only whether or not you're a zealot.

I avoid religious groups for a reason. The whole blind faith thing makes me uncomfortable. I avoid scientists for the same reason. Those who are unwilling to challenge their own perceptions and tenants are not likely to enjoy my company. In such I found INTPs to be as defensive as anyone else.

Ok. But now you're being irrational. You see that don't you? You are taking an absolutist position whilst at the same time arguing against it. I know you are given to hyperbole so I won't pick that apart too much .

I was referring to 'black box' in the engineering sense - you know the input and the output but you don't understand the processing. Sometimes you don't need to, sometimes the complexity of the system is such that you need to employ abstractions. But ultimately that is unsatisfying, for an INTP at any rate. We hunger to understand everything.

It is frustrating to have your ideas lambasted, but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. It is only demoralizing if you are so invested in those ideas that you perceive the attack as a personal attack. That is something INTPs are less prone to than most, IME, and that is probably why they don't scruple too much over attacking the ideas of others.

There is nothing wrong with zeal as long as it isn't coupled with emotionalism and faulty thinking.

 

[Xander]

Ok. But now you're being irrational. You see that don't you? You are taking an absolutist position whilst at the same time arguing against it. I know you are given to hyperbole so I won't pick that apart too much .

Fight fire with fire. If all someone sees is black then it makes more sense to me to show them white than charcoal. I'm more confrontational in that sense.

I was referring to 'black box' in the engineering sense - you know the input and the output but you don't understand the processing. Sometimes you don't need to, sometimes the complexity of the system is such that you need to employ abstractions. But ultimately that is unsatisfying, for an INTP at any rate. We hunger to understand everything.

This much I know. This much I am. What I am not prone to is losing the whole idea in a desperate search to scratch my itch. Well actually no, I am prone to that. The difference to me is that it's one thing to continually question until satisfied with the answer, it is another thing entirely to constantly reject an idea because it needs refining. Sure reject ideas that don't work but when working with others it's a much better tactic to offer up an alteration, a lead to a new and improved idea than it is to just sit back and say no.

Just rejecting ideas is what I'm getting at. Sure every idea can be shot down. So what?

If ALL you do is shoot down ideas then you end up with nothing.

I'm using extremes to illustrate the mundane averages. I get bored with the detail. INTPc is more PRONE to shoot everything down than this site.

It is frustrating to have your ideas lambasted, but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. It is only demoralizing if you are so invested in those ideas that you perceive the attack as a personal attack. That is something INTPs are less prone to than most, IME, and that is probably why they don't scruple too much over attacking the ideas of others.

If only. Almost ALL INTPs I've spoken to are more emotionally unstable than most of the NFs I hang around with. You'd be right in thinking that they don't emote as often but the underbelly is rife with emotion.

There is nothing wrong with zeal as long as it isn't coupled with emotionalism and faulty thinking.

Zeal IS emotion. There is no objective enthusiasm. There is no logical reason for zeal. The concept of zeal precludes any other conclusion than emotionalism and faulty thinking.

 

[Salomé]

Fight fire with fire. If all someone sees is black then it makes more sense to me to show them white than charcoal. I'm more confrontational in that sense.

If all someone sees is black then it doesn't make sense to show them anything but black. It's an exercise in futilty.

Sure reject ideas that don't work but when working with others it's a much better tactic to offer up an alteration, a lead to a new and improved idea than it is to just sit back and say no.

If ALL you do is shoot down ideas then you end up with nothing.

Of course that would be better, but it's not always possible. It is brave to accept that there are things we don't know. It is cowardly to cling to unsound ideas because you are afraid of the dark.

If only. Almost ALL INTPs I've spoken to are more emotionally unstable than most of the NFs I hang around with. You'd be right in thinking that they don't emote as often but the underbelly is rife with emotion.

I wasn't talking about emotional instability. Anecdotal evidence is useless in this argument since our experiences/perceptions are so different. I was talking about over-identifying with the products of your imagination. Over-investing in your own ideas.

Zeal IS emotion. There is no objective enthusiasm. There is no logical reason for zeal. The concept of zeal precludes any other conclusion than emotionalism and faulty thinking.

I don't agree. You seem to be fixating on objectivity i.e. doing what you accuse others of. It is possible to be both enthusiastic and open-minded.

However, I think we have probably strayed some way off-topic. And in any event, I agree that this forum is way better .

 

[Xander]

If all someone sees is black then it makes more sense to me to show them white than charcoal. I'm more confrontational in that sense.

If all someone sees is black then it doesn't make sense to show them anything but black. It's an exercise in futilty.

See now this is kind of the problem with the whole critical analysis mindset. If all you look for is faults then that is what you will find. I said "If all someone sees.." it's only in your interpretation that makes that literal instead of indicative of the choices of the subject. Hence in your interpretation it looks like a complete slip up and worthless... if you look for the value you may have had better luck.

Of course that would be better, but it's not always possible. It is brave to accept that there are things we don't know. It is cowardly to cling to unsound ideas because you are afraid of the dark.

Precisely, however also wrong simultaneously.

Objectively you are correct but socially and as a non island entity you are often wrong. To live past the next sunrise I'd suggest not trying to increase the speed at which you approach existentialistic depression and instead build using probability, faith or just plain arrogance. Anything is better than churlish negativity.

I wasn't talking about emotional instability. Anecdotal evidence is useless in this argument since our experiences/perceptions are so different. I was talking about over-identifying with the products of your imagination. Over-investing in your own ideas.

Which INTPs do. They're known for it.

I think it's stated in the type descriptions of a few places that if you ignore an INTP when they're trying to say something or ignore their solution which they've carefully crafted then they can get really pissy.

I don't agree. You seem to be fixating on objectivity i.e. doing what you accuse others of. It is possible to be both enthusiastic and open-minded.

An enthusiasm is not a zealot. A zealot loses their wider perception an enthusiast just merely enjoys that specific arena.

As for a fixation on objectivity, not precisely. I do admit to a fixation on balance. If that is objective then so be it.

However, I think we have probably strayed some way off-topic.

When do we not?

And in any event, I agree that this forum is way better .

Of course you do. What kind of fool disagrees with me?

 

[Salomé]

See now this is kind of the problem with the whole critical analysis mindset. If all you look for is faults then that is what you will find. I said "If all someone sees.." it's only in your interpretation that makes that literal instead of indicative of the choices of the subject. Hence in your interpretation it looks like a complete slip up and worthless... if you look for the value you may have had better luck.

Or perhaps you just didn't express yourself effectively?

You could have reacted to my comment in two ways:
-provided clarification.
-defensively.
You chose the latter.

I don't look for faults. They look for me.

Objectively you are correct but socially and as a non island entity you are often wrong. To live past the next sunrise I'd suggest not trying to increase the speed at which you approach existentialistic depression and instead build using probability, faith or just plain arrogance. Anything is better than churlish negativity.

Why is it churlish? I don't suffer existential depression. I can tolerate ambiguity. On most subjects I am ambivalent. Maybe this is the key difference. Interesting.

I think it's stated in the type descriptions of a few places that if you ignore an INTP when they're trying to say something or ignore their solution which they've carefully crafted then they can get really pissy.

That's entirely different from picking their solution apart.
One is personal, the other is not.

An enthusiasm is not a zealot. A zealot loses their wider perception an enthusiast just merely enjoys that specific arena.

I didn't say it was good to be a zealot, just that zeal doesn't have to be a bad thing.

 

[Delilah]

The great thing about the above debate, is it is exactly the kind you get over there.

Silly INTPs calling the kettle black.

 

[Xander]

I don't look for faults. They look for me.

And INTPc is looking for your faithful membership.

 

[Xander]

The great thing about the above debate, is it is exactly the kind you get over there.

Silly INTPs calling the kettle black.

Okay let' try this short fashion. I'm not going to respond to any responses unless in dire need of entertainment.

#1 If that was what you call a debate then please warn me next time. I hate competition.

#2 It may be like what happens at INTPc but how that relates to anything escapes me. Has anyone said that this place is cool cause it's nothing like INTPc? Did I miss that bit?

Seriously... your point has broken off somewhere between behind your ear and the page.

 

[Delilah]

Okay let' try this short fashion. I'm not going to respond to any responses unless in dire need of entertainment.

#1 If that was what you call a debate then please warn me next time. I hate competition.

#2 It may be like what happens at INTPc but how that relates to anything escapes me. Has anyone said that this place is cool cause it's nothing like INTPc? Did I miss that bit?

Seriously... your point has broken off somewhere between behind your ear and the page.

Why so defensive?
One of your main complaints was that the people over there pick apart each others arguments and don't bother to put them back together, an inability, at times, to see the forest through the trees if you will. Which is exactly what the two of you are doing. I never said a thing about better / worse / cooler, only made the comparison that you seem to be doing what you claim bothers you at the other site.

 

[Salomé]

Why so defensive?
One of your main complaints was that the people over there pick apart each others arguments and don't bother to put them back together, an inability, at times, to see the forest through the trees if you will. Which is exactly what the two of you are doing. I never said a thing about better / worse / cooler, only made the comparison that you seem to be doing what you claim bothers you at the other site.

That's funny because it's true.

 

[Simplexity]

That's funny because it's true.

It's what INTPs do. it's to be expected, it only is bothersome when it becomes personal.

 

[Totenkindly]

That's funny because it's true.

The truth hurts.

Which is funny.

 

[miss fortune]

*yawn* however, long, drawn out, overly pointless arguments are pretty f-ing boring... which is why I'm more frequently here (and more often lurk than post there). I even get bored with my own threads once people start getting boring and such

It's more fun to pick a small detail and make a joke about it than pick the detail and dissect it for the next 2 days