Gays & Relationships With Women

[Kora]

when we were growing up there was never any sort of awkwardness between him and any of his other male friends and myself. it was so long ago its hard to say for sure, but i remember him expressing physical attraction towards women on a few occasions... he was always a little fruity but if anything i considered him a lucky guy to have so many female friends. i just wondered if he had really been hiding a physical attraction towards men or if he psychologically created that due to his relation to females.

Maybe he faked his attraction to females. A gay boy in my school was always telling 'heterosexual' jokes, yet he couldn't deceive my gaydar (well, and he told me a few months ago).

 

[Grayscale]

Maybe he faked his attraction to females. A gay boy in my school was always telling 'heterosexual' jokes, yet he couldn't deceive my gaydar (well, and he told me a few months ago).

i understand the possibility of that, but it's pretty difficult to be entirely consistent... body language, tone of voice, facial expression, etc. it is something only the best actors can do. fact of the matter is, i was always aware that he was a bit effeminate, but i never saw a single sign of underlying attraction to men.

this is not really about him, though, it just brings up a bigger question, about how much of our sexuality is inherent and how much is decided upon... consciously or subconsciously. of course i have heard many homosexuals say it is entirely inherent, but i think that is just a conditioned response to the insinuation that there is something wrong with it. if we hadn't started from that concept, i wonder if that would be different.

 

[Totenkindly]

this is not really about him, though, it just brings up a bigger question, about how much of our sexuality is inherent and how much is decided upon... consciously or subconsciously. of course i have heard many homosexuals say it is entirely inherent, but i think that is just a conditioned response to the insinuation that there is something wrong with it. if we hadn't started from that concept, i wonder if that would be different.

I agree that it's difficult to pinpoint where such things come from. The problem is that all of life is a big feedback loop, and whatever sets these things off happens early and quietly, so it's hard to tell what actually instigated everything. Our choices and the way we choose to approach a situation and what perceptions we buy into also impact where things go. You just can't set up a nice clean chain of cause and effect.

 

[Kora]

i understand the possibility of that, but it's pretty difficult to be entirely consistent... body language, tone of voice, facial expression, etc. it is something only the best actors can do. fact of the matter is, i was always aware that he was a bit effeminate, but i never saw a single sign of underlying attraction to men.

this is not really about him, though, it just brings up a bigger question, about how much of our sexuality is inherent and how much is decided upon... consciously or subconsciously. of course i have heard many homosexuals say it is entirely inherent, but i think that is just a conditioned response to the insinuation that there is something wrong with it. if we hadn't started from that concept, i wonder if that would be different.

I see. Such an interesting case, anyway.

On the issue I think if not entirely, it has a very important genetical factor. If not, why some kids at a very young age feel already attracted to the same genre?
And then there's the option that we're all bisexual, since it's love for the other person what really matters and all the stuff.

 

[ptgatsby]

You just can't set up a nice clean chain of cause and effect.

It gets really hard when you include that the decisions we make actually cause our preferences to change. That is, if you decide you like rock music because someone asks if you do, you'll actually come to like rock music.

When everything, including the things that make us "us" are so subjectively influenced, it's hard to say anything about cause and effect.

(In this case, it is clearer if you say "how do you feel about gays" before you have a decision. After, your actual preference will shift depending on how you answered. It doesn't even take someone else's opinion to influence you! And of course, if you have both, well... )

 

[millerm277]

What about two buddies putting an empty seat between them at the cinema? How pathetic is that? As if the rest of us cinema-goers even care.

That is pathetic.

You should study instinctive male urinal etiquette, it's definitely along the same lines.

Different. That's more because I don't really have a desire to be close to someone else when using the bathroom, and prefer more privacy. Why WOULD I want to be "closer" to them? Here's a comparison...imagine, the ladies room is missing all the doors/walls around the toilets. Would you choose to use the toilet right next to someone else, or the one further away, if you have the choice?

 

[Chris_in_Orbit]

Well this comes down to the flaw in bathroom design. why the hell are the urinals so close to each other??

A better question is why does Jennifer know about how guy bathroom mechanics work?

 

[ENTJ Extraordinaire]

And then there's the option that we're all bisexual, since it's love for the other person what really matters and all the stuff.

this makes most sense in my mind, that we all have a genetic predisposition to be bisexual, just because we can find love to anyone [i think its very important to remember there is a VERY large difference between sexual attraction and LOVE]

however, that leads only to the fact that we are taught by our parents and our upbringings to determine our sexuality. which i think is something that is surprisingly hard to not do.

*fact* - i have 5 sisters, and 1 brother.
*fact* - i am straight...but not entirely theres room for variation at times
*fact* - i believe that it was growing up around girls that has made me quite effeminate, and a Metrosexual.

 

[wedekit]

I'm more on the androgynous side when it comes to feminine and masculine. I tend to serve as a bridge between the genders to male and female friends alike, but I have way more girls for friends. I believe that girls treat me just like "one of the girls", though I'm not entirely sure what that means.

My best friend (ENFP) doesn't get along that well with other girls, but I think I work out great for her as a friend because I'm not a girl, but I tend to have the same kind of bond she would get with one; just with less drama.

 

[Kora]

however, that leads only to the fact that we are taught by our parents and our upbringings to determine our sexuality. which i think is something that is surprisingly hard to not do.

Yes, that's it what I meant. Take a look at the Greeks... Homosexuality was 'in' at those times. And some tribes have homosexual rites.
In the end, we want to have a soul/mind/heart-mate, and sex can be good with both genders. Maybe we're born with some predisposition to homosexuality or heterosexuality, besides 'basical' bisexuality, but I think that we're greatly influenced by society.

 

[Totenkindly]

this makes most sense in my mind, that we all have a genetic predisposition to be bisexual, just because we can find love to anyone [i think its very important to remember there is a VERY large difference between sexual attraction and LOVE]

Love is definitely an ambiguous term, especially in western culture since many sorts of feelings get lumped into it. (The Greek had more terms, with more nuance, to describe various facets of love.)

And yes, we can physically engage in sexual play with either physical gender.

But it shouldn't be surprising that such a large segment of the population is het, due to the reproductive needs. There's definitely a large slant towards that...

... I really do not think all of sexual preference and "love" is nurture. Biology tends to transcend training in areas like that; you can be trained and pushed and yet the innate still surges out. It can only be suppressed.

That being said, I think it's pretty clear that social and religious values greatly determine the ease of expression of certain preferences, and often if we attach sexual stigma to something, it seems to create more issues than fixes.

*fact* - i have 5 sisters, and 1 brother.
*fact* - i am straight...but not entirely theres room for variation at times
*fact* - i believe that it was growing up around girls that has made me quite effeminate, and a Metrosexual.

Meh. It can, to a degree, simply because more "effeminate" behaviors and mentalities will be picked up and you wouldn't have been exposed to as many "masculine" behaviors if you would have grown up in a largely male environment, but it doesn't really much change your internal preferences or where you might lean if the opportunities presented themselves.

Funny, my one metrosexual friend also drives a jeep and enjoys doing overtly masculine things despite fully admitting his metrosexuality. As an INFP male, he is quite a mix.

 

[Lady_X]

i love all the open mindedness in this thread...and this site in general...did the op ever feel a sense of resolve or what?

 

[ENTJ Extraordinaire]

*sigh* it definitely is very supportive, and great place to 'open-up' about these things

not really sure if that is a good thing or not, considering the great number of randoms that just read these posts....

*glares suspiciously at them all*

 

[01011010]

hey i have a gay question bc of all this prop 8 stuff in california.

when a gay couple is raising their adopted child... do they teach them to be gay?

bc if they teach them to be gay, aren't they saying its a choice? or at least, partially a choice?

Think logically about the question you just asked.

Most gay people are raised in hetero environments. They are taught being straight is what's normal and best. Despite the upbringing, they are still homosexual. In some cases it can be a choice, but most of the time it isn't. No one in their right mind would choose to be part of a group that's so discriminated against.

 

[Totenkindly]

Think logically about the question you just asked.

Most gay people are raised in hetero environments. They are taught being straight is what's normal and best. Despite the upbringing, they are still homosexual. In some cases it can be a choice, but most of the time it isn't. No one in their right mind would choose to be part of a group that's so discriminated against.

As far as I can tell, kids raised by gay parents have the same odds to be gay or straight as anyone else. But I haven't looked at the research recently. Interestingly, evangelical kids might be more opposed to abortion nowadays than they were, but age 30 and under are increasingly "okay" with gay marriage; even the straight kids are not really seeing what the big deal is, even if they're straight and would never want to be gay. (of course, that's what the conservatives are afraid of... hence, let's pass lots of laws NOW before their position falls completely out of favor.)

And definitely, you're treated like a second-class citizen, like anyone else in similar situations. You wouldn't believe the cost that some people have had to pay because of their preferences or seemingly inherent feelings about themselves. (And of course, overseas in some places like Iran, the penalty is death; hilariously, it's better in those countries legally to get a sex change than to be physically male and have sex with men.)

No one in their right mind would pay them if they had a choice; for the feelings to persist enough to risking losing everything you have (relationships, family, job, whatever else) because otherwise you feel like a shadow of a person tells you how innate it all feels.

 

[01011010]

As far as I can tell, kids raised by gay parents have the same odds to be gay or straight as anyone else. But I haven't looked at the research recently.

And definitely, you're treated like a second-class citizen, like anyone else in similar situations. You wouldn't the cost that some people have had to pay because of their preferences or seemingly inherent feelings about themselves.

No one in their right mind would pay them if they had a choice; for the feelings to persist enough to risking losing everything you have (relationships, family, job, whatever else) because otherwise you feel like a shadow of a person tells you how innate it all feels.

Exactly

 

[Chris_in_Orbit]

01011010 I saw your post before you changed it. You may not want to talk about it more but I'm definitely sorry to hear that. Sometimes life is just not fair..

 

[Lady_X]

^^^ agreed...you may feel more comfortable admitting your preference if you're taught you have a choice but no one can teach you to be straight or gay...imo.

 

[wedekit]

As far as I can tell, kids raised by gay parents have the same odds to be gay or straight as anyone else.

I read a lit review that summarized all studies done on lesbian parents and children. They matched these children with children of heterosexual families based on demographic factors (income, race, etc.) and found relatively little difference between the two. It seemed that sons of lesbian parents actually did better in school, had less trouble with emotions (emotional intelligence), etc.

The one major detriment to children of lesbian parents was that they often received criticism/felt rejected by their peers because of their parents sexual orientation. The majority of the children of lesbian couples identified as heterosexual as well.

I thought it was all interesting. Very little research has been done on children of gay men. =( I think it had something to do with lesbian couples having biological children while gay men have to rely on adoption.

Edit: I just remembered that they looked for households with two WOMEN serving as parents; they didn't ask the parents if they were strictly lesbian, bisexual, or even sisters (hopefully in a non-sexual relationship, lol) who were raising a child together.