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Random Politics Thread

Coriolis

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Yeah if anyone is even a little familiar with Jeffery Goldberg and his past well...I don't think this was an "accident". Nor should anyone believe anything he's saying.

But it could be a distraction from this.




Lawsuits aren't getting people back or the majority of the jobs back. Trump is acting like this because the Dems still think some rule of law is being recognized. It's not.
Regardless of how they are decided, lawsuits are a mechanism for public collective protest.
 

The Cat

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They're coming for the neuro divergent kids, lgbtq+ kids apparently have no place to exist in this world or their imaginations.
If this isnt fucking thought police government over reach I don't know what is...jesus the list is so long right now.
These fucking ghouls are too obsessed with children.
 

The Cat

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ceecee

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Now that they're grabbing people off the streets and shipping them to El Salvador Dachau....I wonder how all those brown and black non voters and Trump voters are doing?


 

ygolo

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Now that they're grabbing people off the streets and shipping them to El Salvador Dachau....I wonder how all those brown and black non voters and Trump voters are doing?


A student Visa holder wouldn't have had the opportunity to vote.

I know many of these brown Trump voters and non-voters, too.

"What are you going to do, vote for the deportations of your friends?" didn't sit well when they were struggling to have their voices heard before election.

The "How do you like it now that your friends are being deported," reaction also just confirms that to them that the Democrats aren't their party either.

The sheer number of people regretting just coming to the US in the first place, rather than another country has shot up dramatically.
 

ceecee

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A student Visa holder wouldn't have had the opportunity to vote.

I know many of these brown Trump voters and non-voters, too.

"What are you going to do, vote for the deportations of your friends?" didn't sit well when they were struggling to have their voices heard before election.

The "How do you like it now that your friends are being deported," reaction also just confirms that to them that the Democrats aren't their party either.

The sheer number of people regretting just coming to the US in the first place, rather than another country has shot up dramatically.
I'm not talking about the woman snatched off the streets voting. I'm talking about the people that either didn't vote or voted for Trump. I heard specifically - "she's not black" - from some black people and I heard arguments that were far more sensible from some brown people that didn't vote but either way that got Trump elected. Also heard some brown people voting for Trump to get rid of "illegals". But Trump will be deporting anyone not white, not straight, that disagrees with him and so on. It pisses me off because they were warned, repeatedly, that this would happen. And jailing or straight up murdering as many of the rest as possible.
 

ygolo

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I'm not talking about the woman snatched off the streets voting. I'm talking about the people that either didn't vote or voted for Trump. I heard specifically - "she's not black" - from some black people and I heard arguments that were far more sensible from some brown people that didn't vote but either way that got Trump elected. Also heard some brown people voting for Trump to get rid of "illegals". But Trump will be deporting anyone not white, not straight, that disagrees with him and so on. It pisses me off because they were warned, repeatedly, that this would happen. And jailing or straight up murdering as many of the rest as possible.
There's a two party system.

The final leverage to get the party you believe is closer to your view point is the vote.

But that's not what's happening. The Democrats didn't lose the election due to too many people staying home.

These days, at least last election, the less politically active you were, the more likely you were a Trump voter.

Most people care about their day-to-day and their livelihoods.

The supposed warnings may have been ignored to use the bathroom when the ads came on.

You could say it's radicalization due to social media, but they aren't politically active.

Left and right matters less than up and down.

Like it or not, the Democrats were holding the clubs of structural economic violence, especially in the bluest states and bluest cities.

That's what the politically inactive respond to. The brown Trump voters I know are also the least online people I know.

They are probably also largely unaware or believe I am blowing the deportations out of proportion.
 

ceecee

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There's a two party system.

The final leverage to get the party you believe is closer to your view point is the vote.

But that's not what's happening. The Democrats didn't lose the election due to too many people staying home.

These days, at least last election, the less politically active you were, the more likely you were a Trump voter.

Most people care about their day-to-day and their livelihoods.

The supposed warnings may have been ignored to use the bathroom when the ads came on.

You could say it's radicalization due to social media, but they aren't politically active.

Left and right matters less than up and down.

Like it or not, the Democrats were holding the clubs of structural economic violence, especially in the bluest states and bluest cities.

That's what the politically inactive respond to. The brown Trump voters I know are also the least online people I know.

They are probably also largely unaware or believe I am blowing the deportations out of proportion.
By them being as unaware as this - they are simply voting for that same dictatorship under communism (or any other ism) you mentioned was a driving factor for them in the other thread. It's never about the economic system. You can talk all day long about immigrants and opportunity but it won't matter at all if there is no functioning country left under some authoritarian rule. It's always strange to me that people continue to fall for this same bullshit all over the world but they do.
 

ygolo

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By them being as unaware as this - they are simply voting for that same dictatorship under communism (or any other ism) you mentioned was a driving factor for them in the other thread. It's never about the economic system. You can talk all day long about immigrants and opportunity but it won't matter at all if there is no functioning country left under some authoritarian rule. It's always strange to me that people continue to fall for this same bullshit all over the world but they do.
The pattern is predictable and preventable. People don't care about the economic system. But they do care about economic results.

I don't think we are as far along the dictatorship path as you believe. I could be wrong. But I hope we can turn it around before the camps reach the numbers in other historical places and times.

I hope enough people will pay attention before it is too late. But I am explaining the dynamics I see in the immigrant populations I am close to.
 

Coriolis

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There's a two party system.

The final leverage to get the party you believe is closer to your view point is the vote.

But that's not what's happening. The Democrats didn't lose the election due to too many people staying home.

These days, at least last election, the less politically active you were, the more likely you were a Trump voter.

Most people care about their day-to-day and their livelihoods.

The supposed warnings may have been ignored to use the bathroom when the ads came on.

You could say it's radicalization due to social media, but they aren't politically active.

Left and right matters less than up and down.

Like it or not, the Democrats were holding the clubs of structural economic violence, especially in the bluest states and bluest cities.

That's what the politically inactive respond to. The brown Trump voters I know are also the least online people I know.

They are probably also largely unaware or believe I am blowing the deportations out of proportion.
People do not care enough about their day to day livelihood to vote in their own best interests, forget about the interests of the broader community. They don't care enough to understand the relationship between who is in office and what happens directly to them and their family. They fall for mis- or disinformation that takes advantage of their emotions in the moment, and end up shooting themselves in the foot, over and over. To be fair, millions of dollars and technical resources are invested in creating and disseminating that disinformation, as well as in weakening the public education system so students are not taught critical thinking.

Black and brown voters, poor voters, veteran voters, women voters (gee - that adds up to a significant majority, doesn't it?) may not respond well to being warned they were about to vote against their friends; may not like to hear "I told you so". It will take the government coming for them or someone immediately close to them for them to understand, and then it will be too late.

I have no idea what you mean by the "clubs of structural economic violence". Democrats have traditionally supported unions which improve wages, benefits, and working conditions; the CFPB which returns money to defrauded consumers; higher taxes on the wealthy; broader access to health care; and other measures that seek to ease economic burdens and expand opportunity for the 90%. One can certainly argue that they don't go far enough. The ACA, for example, is a far cry from the universal health care we should have. Republicans, however, even before the Trump fiasco, have argued against all of these in the name of leaving everything to "free markets". As we see, when "free" means unregulated, the economic playing field tilts ever further from being level, shifting more wealth from the many into the hands of the few. That will now just accelerate.
 

ygolo

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People do not care enough about their day to day livelihood to vote in their own best interests, forget about the interests of the broader community. They don't care enough to understand the relationship between who is in office and what happens directly to them and their family. They fall for mis- or disinformation that takes advantage of their emotions in the moment, and end up shooting themselves in the foot, over and over. To be fair, millions of dollars and technical resources are invested in creating and disseminating that disinformation, as well as in weakening the public education system so students are not taught critical thinking.

Black and brown voters, poor voters, veteran voters, women voters (gee - that adds up to a significant majority, doesn't it?) may not respond well to being warned they were about to vote against their friends; may not like to hear "I told you so". It will take the government coming for them or someone immediately close to them for them to understand, and then it will be too late.

I have no idea what you mean by the "clubs of structural economic violence". Democrats have traditionally supported unions which improve wages, benefits, and working conditions; the CFPB which returns money to defrauded consumers; higher taxes on the wealthy; broader access to health care; and other measures that seek to ease economic burdens and expand opportunity for the 90%. One can certainly argue that they don't go far enough. The ACA, for example, is a far cry from the universal health care we should have. Republicans, however, even before the Trump fiasco, have argued against all of these in the name of leaving everything to "free markets". As we see, when "free" means unregulated, the economic playing field tilts ever further from being level, shifting more wealth from the many into the hands of the few. That will now just accelerate.
To be clear, immigrants still break for Democrats on the whole. But the shift is strong away from them.

I'm in a weird position of trying to give voice to something I only have partial agreement with.

We had 4 years of Trump before. We pounded the fascism drum since at least 2015. I am there with you on that.

I have argued plenty against the neo-classical concensus on "free markets" and to be fair even the people I am trying to give voice to believe economic inequality is a problem.

But consider that Democrats are basically at an all time low and Trump is at a point he's comfortable with.

Perhaps, briefly consider that there may legitimate grievances in urban and rural centers.

The clubs of economic structural violence:
1) The biggest issue is that there are always plans for things that fall apart. There are so many things the Democrats are for, in name. But rarely do thins happen in reality these days.

There's pretty much always something like a 14 step, multi-year process where lobbyists and lawyers take a big chunk of money before anything is started, pushed forward, or completed.

This means when anyone is trying to solve a problem in material reality, not just "awareness," has to bring in people with money and capital just to get to the starting line.

2) Housing shortages - the worst in the most liberal states and cities. A lot of the zoning comes from historical redlining, many of which came in the tradition of Dixiecrats from before. Republicans also put more in. But Democrats have been in power in many of these places for a while, and instead of material making things better, they've been defending the red taped status quo. I can't believe a rational person can deny the existence of housing shortages where many of the majority of jobs are.

3) Rural broadband - $42 B in announced funds for it under Biden. How many people actually connected? Many say it's effectively 0.

I could go on, but I made the thread "Stop Criminalizing Upward Mobility" for more clubs of structural economic violence.
 

Coriolis

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A concerted disinformation campaign that has been going on for years, if not decades, is a major factor in current Democratic standing. Of course they are responsible, too, having failed to recognize it soon enough, or to develop an effective counter-strategy. There are individual Democratic leaders who are on the right track. These are the ones who win easily in districts that vote strongly for Trump. The party as a whole should be distilling their best practices and making it part of their overall strategy, but I don't see that happening.
 

ygolo

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A concerted disinformation campaign that has been going on for years, if not decades, is a major factor in current Democratic standing. Of course they are responsible, too, having failed to recognize it soon enough, or to develop an effective counter-strategy. There are individual Democratic leaders who are on the right track. These are the ones who win easily in districts that vote strongly for Trump. The party as a whole should be distilling their best practices and making it part of their overall strategy, but I don't see that happening.
Disinformation is a problem, but I think we may misinterpret the channel through which it comes. Word-of-mouth is a big part of it. The Democrats have won the ad spending and social media money game for several cycles now.

Articles like the following were seen as reasons to be optimistic of a Democratic win:


They were talking about the disengaged, the same people unlikely to contribute to a campaign or come up on polling data, and they skip political messaging altogether. But they are also incredibly easy to sway by people they know. You just have to give a convincing argument about everyday life and seem empathetic to their problems. Part of me thinks every door the Pod Save America guys knocked on turned a non-voter into a Trump voter.

In 2016, I talked to many people I could ultimately convince, but the same structural complaints exist. It is not disinformation that there is a housing shortage, nor is it disinformation that little rural broadband has been deployed despite all the talk. It is also not disinformation that much of the funding for X goes to lobbyists and lawyers for X rather than X.

Consider what is more of a betrayal for people:
1) being the people officially pro-business, anti-goverment and breaking the government.
2) being officially pro-working person and then handing their programs to lobbyists and lawyers

The politically disengaged are not dumb. They just have to worry about living day-to-day more (and have the good sense to do that, unlike me).

When you throw out the f-word to people, they'll say Regan was a "fascist," as were the Bush Sr. and Jr. Some lessons need to be learned from the Boy Who Cried Wolf.
 
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