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What do you think of this statement?

Lark

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Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
29,682
What do you think of the following statement:-

"Get rid of your dependencies, be ready to profit from others dependencies"

Also phrased as:-

"Get rid of your vices, get ready to exploit others vices"

Do you think its:

a) A good/sound life philosophy;
b) A regretable reality;
c) An objectionable half-truth;

I've heard some even more vicious versions of this idea presented as an objective observation about capitalism, even human life and interaction per se.

I've also heard it linked to a sort of "red in tooth and claw", "survival of the fittest", social darwinist "man is wolf to man" style idea, partically realised but an incipient social order.

Anyone got any thoughts? Is it A, B or C or is there a possible D?
 

ceecee

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SensEye

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Do you think its:

a) A good/sound life philosophy;
b) A regretable reality;
c) An objectionable half-truth;

Anyone got any thoughts? Is it A, B or C or is there a possible D?
I think it's somewhere in there. Possibly a D.

A) seems a pragmatic life philosophy, I don't know whether is is a good one. Might depend on one's definition of vices. Say you are going to live a simple, healthy, frugal lifestyle free of vices per se. What would be the point of trying to profit/exploit from others vices? What would be the point of accumulating wealth if not to spend it on your own vices? Possibly depends on if you consider a desire to live in some degree of luxury/comfort a vice. Doesn't Buddhist philosophy sort of revolve around this concept? Give up material wants and live a simple life seeking enlightenment. You're not exploiting anyone by doing so in that case.

B) I might remove the word regrettable. It's just reality. Most people are going to act in their own self interest. It seems a reasonable thing to do. I might rephrase the philosophy as: minimize the opportunities for others to profit from you, maximize your opportunities to profit from others. That's not as bad as it sounds. Almost every business (and employee thereof) is trying to sell something to somebody so they can make profit to then buy things they personally want. So it's always going to go both ways to some extent.

C) It's probably a partial truth. Again, adding the word objectionable is neither here nor there (it implies there is some objective standard for judging morality). Another complicating factor is that in that many cases, things that benefit the collective (i.e. society) also benefit the individual members. Things like law and order, socialized education, socialized medicine etc. There is a cost to the individual, but the benefits returned may outweigh those costs. So it's not every man for himself all the time.
 

Lark

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
29,682
I think it's somewhere in there. Possibly a D.

A) seems a pragmatic life philosophy, I don't know whether is is a good one. Might depend on one's definition of vices. Say you are going to live a simple, healthy, frugal lifestyle free of vices per se. What would be the point of trying to profit/exploit from others vices? What would be the point of accumulating wealth if not to spend it on your own vices? Possibly depends on if you consider a desire to live in some degree of luxury/comfort a vice. Doesn't Buddhist philosophy sort of revolve around this concept? Give up material wants and live a simple life seeking enlightenment. You're not exploiting anyone by doing so in that case.

B) I might remove the word regrettable. It's just reality. Most people are going to act in their own self interest. It seems a reasonable thing to do. I might rephrase the philosophy as: minimize the opportunities for others to profit from you, maximize your opportunities to profit from others. That's not as bad as it sounds. Almost every business (and employee thereof) is trying to sell something to somebody so they can make profit to then buy things they personally want. So it's always going to go both ways to some extent.

C) It's probably a partial truth. Again, adding the word objectionable is neither here nor there (it implies there is some objective standard for judging morality). Another complicating factor is that in that many cases, things that benefit the collective (i.e. society) also benefit the individual members. Things like law and order, socialized education, socialized medicine etc. There is a cost to the individual, but the benefits returned may outweigh those costs. So it's not every man for himself all the time.

When I was thinking of A, B, C as responses to the original statement I was trying to think of viewing it as positive, neutral, negatively, the manner in which I phrased the responses was meant to convey, in each case, that there is a degree to which is it, or can be, objectively a fact.

The source is from the fringe of the nineties militia scene, a sort of vicious objectivist philosophy, coloured, no doubt, with a sort of social darwinist outlook.

The thing is not so much the losing your vices / dependencies, that's fine, and I've thought about that, why it seems less of an issue for me than the second part, about exploiting other peoples vices.

Perhaps you could frame that as being simple self-interest, I'm not so sure, it sounds to me a little more predatory in character, at the very least, if you are being an apologist for this position its a case of that old saying about you "should not wish someone to die but neither expend energies to keep them alive" but that's about the best you could do. It seems cruel, callous and wicked.

Anyway, like more than a litte of the libertarian philosophies of that era it seems like the philosophy or guiding principles of a hill billy meth pushing motor cycle gang.
 
Joined
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What do you think of the following statement:-

"Get rid of your dependencies, be ready to profit from others dependencies"

Also phrased as:-

"Get rid of your vices, get ready to exploit others vices"

Do you think its:

a) A good/sound life philosophy;
b) A regretable reality;
c) An objectionable half-truth;

I've heard some even more vicious versions of this idea presented as an objective observation about capitalism, even human life and interaction per se.

I've also heard it linked to a sort of "red in tooth and claw", "survival of the fittest", social darwinist "man is wolf to man" style idea, partically realised but an incipient social order.

Anyone got any thoughts? Is it A, B or C or is there a possible D?
It sounds a little like prosperity gospel, really. Or anything intended to give a moral justification to immoral behavior. For example, they would be justified in profiting from immoral things because they're doing it to immoral people, according to them.

I'd just go with D, for bullshit. I would have liked to have done something that bettered humanity but none of those jobs I sought wanted me. Now I'm doing something that appears to be neutral, from where I sit, which at least lets me be proud of being good at that specific job, when I am good at that specific job.

I think many of the other justifications of capitalism fall along the lines of it being natural, ignoring all the examples of cooperation that exist in nature.
 

Lark

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
29,682
It sounds a little like prosperity gospel, really. Or anything intended to give a moral justification to immoral behavior. For example, they would be justified in profiting from immoral things because they're doing it to immoral people, according to them.

I'd just go with D, for bullshit. I would have liked to have done something that bettered humanity but none of those jobs I sought wanted me. Now I'm doing something that appears to be neutral, from where I sit, which at least lets me be proud of being good at that specific job, when I am good at that specific job.

I think many of the other justifications of capitalism fall along the lines of it being natural, ignoring all the examples of cooperation that exist in nature.

It could perform well as a rationalization of a particular sort of behaviour, I do think its true that mankind is more rationalizing than reasoning.

I DO think so much is dictated by affect and how that's coloured by the individual and social unconscious, trends, traditions (I'm talking about both of those in terms of the macro and micro-sociology).

Though, I do wonder, and I acknowledge its a case of context, it could be more or less the case depending on who you're with, where you are at etc. to what extent it could be an objective observation of behaviour, like it or not, but the choice is do you conform to it or do you dont you, and what does it mean for you.

You know the old saying about how a toxic workplace is more likely to change you than you are to change it but if its a neighbourhood, community, culture or nation your options to seek an exit could be more limited.

Equally, there are limits to "maladaptive adaptations" so conform as you might eventually it'll catch up to you.
 
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It could perform well as a rationalization of a particular sort of behaviour, I do think its true that mankind is more rationalizing than reasoning.

I DO think so much is dictated by affect and how that's coloured by the individual and social unconscious, trends, traditions (I'm talking about both of those in terms of the macro and micro-sociology).

Well, if my individual and social unconscious exist, there are no doubt some very strange things going on there.
Though, I do wonder, and I acknowledge its a case of context, it could be more or less the case depending on who you're with, where you are at etc. to what extent it could be an objective observation of behaviour, like it or not, but the choice is do you conform to it or do you dont you, and what does it mean for you.
Well, these kinds of justification are hard to escape. They're everywhere in the U.S. Americans are taught to admire somebody like Donald Trump; it's not surprising to me that he was elected twice (and maybe more). Donald Trump is sort of like the manifestation of all the dumb bullshit Americans believe about capitalism, wealth, and entrepreneurs. But, I need to stop statements like these from being a golden record.
You know the old saying about how a toxic workplace is more likely to change you than you are to change it but if its a neighbourhood, community, culture or nation your options to seek an exit could be more limited.
Well, for a while, one made me have panic attacks at the sound of a phone ringing.
 

SensEye

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Perhaps you could frame that as being simple self-interest, I'm not so sure, it sounds to me a little more predatory in character, at the very least, if you are being an apologist for this position its a case of that old saying about you "should not wish someone to die but neither expend energies to keep them alive" but that's about the best you could do. It seems cruel, callous and wicked.
Well, I am not really clear on what you are getting at.

I think it basically is simple self interest, it might be a bit predatory, but that's just the way people are. For example, the 'war on drugs' will never be won, because there is a consumer demand, and as long as that demand exists, people will fulfill that demand for profit.

I would even take issue with your other statement about not helping being cruel, callous or wicked. Callous maybe, but if the third party did not exist, they could not help. Is not existing, cruel or wicked? Of course not. I think those terms only apply to actively doing harm. However, things are never black and white, humans are social animals and hence have a sense of empathy. You may choose to help based on this or not (it all probably depends on the circumstances). But if you choose not to help regarding a problem you had no hand in creating, I don't think you can call that cruel or wicked.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
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What do you think of the following statement:-

"Get rid of your dependencies, be ready to profit from others dependencies"

Also phrased as:-

"Get rid of your vices, get ready to exploit others vices"

Do you think its:

a) A good/sound life philosophy;
b) A regretable reality;
c) An objectionable half-truth;

I've heard some even more vicious versions of this idea presented as an objective observation about capitalism, even human life and interaction per se.

I've also heard it linked to a sort of "red in tooth and claw", "survival of the fittest", social darwinist "man is wolf to man" style idea, partically realised but an incipient social order.

Anyone got any thoughts? Is it A, B or C or is there a possible D?
I go with C, or possibly D: a selfish, destructive point of view. This can be seen by filling in the blank and considering some specific dependencies. Or is it vices? First we must explore this distinction. We all have dependencies. On the most basic level, we depend on food, water, shelter, medical care. These are generally not considered vices unless taken to excess, e.g. gluttony. Nor is it possible to get rid of your own dependencies, since at least some are universal. In this sense, the statement is an impossibility.

Turning now to vices, drunkenness and gambling come to mind first. Someone who profits off that would, I suppose, be selling alcohol to the drunks, and enticing the gamblers into casinos. This encourages the vices, which does no good for the "customer", or those in their circle. I would consider that morally flawed behavior, profiting at others' expense. Ideally, one should profit at others' benefit. At its best, capitalism involves making money by providing a worthwhile good or service to consumers. As long as there is sufficient focus on the delivered product, all is well. But when lust for profit becomes the overriding factor, the consumer all too often becomes a victim, along with the community, rather than an equal partner in a fair economic exchange.
 
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