Advice about typing Intuitives (N)

[mancino]

Hi!

I’ve finally found my type! It’s been a long journey, a quest for the mystical treasure full of perils and traps, but I could seize the prize and bring it back to share it with my community. I hope you will find some help in the insights I found.

This is a very long post, with a TL;DR at the end which is also too long. I tried to keep it brief, I swear! But there is so much to say…

I started like everybody else: a careless test on 16personalities. I came out as INTJ. From there, I read everything about MBTI and Jung and the Grant Stack, and tested myself, and read more, and got more confused. At one point, I opened a type-me tread here on TC with a telling title:
https://www.typologycentral.com/forums/what-s-my-type-/104166-please-help-type-xnxx.html
That was my only certainty: that I was a very strong N. The rest was a mess.
(If you want more background about me and my test results, please check that thread, but be aware that it’s almost 50 posts long!)

My mistake was that I relied too much on type descriptions, which are inconsistent. If you then cherry-pick, you could see yourself as any type: insightful, driven and isolated as an INTJ, analytical and aloof as an INTP, moody and self-absorbed as an INFJ, bossy, determined and bold as an ENTJ, curious, scattered and sensible as an xNFP, inspiring and charming as an ENFJ. I also changed a lot through the years, which muddied the waters even more.

But it all missed the point. What solved the problem was the Enneagram, crossed with MBTI, with a critical help from some friends here on TC: [MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] and [MENTION=39780]noname3788[/MENTION].

(If you are familiar with the Enneagram, skip the spoiler, otherwise you’ll find in it a very brief overview, relevant to this discussion).

The Enneagram is about core motivations and fears. It features 9 types, identified by numbers. They are arranged from 1 to 9 around a circle, with lines connecting each type to two non-adjacent types. The are many type descriptions, which are as misleading as the MBTI ones. I related to many: feeling different and unique as a 4, knowledge-seeking as a 5, multi-talented and versatile as a 7, self-sufficient as an 8, perfectionist as a 1, even result-oriented as a 3.
But the Enneagram has another dimension: it tells you that you can visit different types at some point, if it helps you or you feel like it.
You can always go to the two types next to yours (the one that you visit most is your wing). You can also move along the lines, in two directions. “Disintegrating”, when under stress or mobilizing to meet a challenge, you show the average and unhealthy traits of your disintegration type. “Integrating”, when overcoming your fixations, you show the average and healthy traits of your integration type.

As this is an MBTI post, maybe we could use some MBTI to Enneagram correlations. It’s a strongly debated topic, I will just use the one in this link from now on (just as a reference to help reading this, not to get into a debate about it.)
Myers-Briggs / MBTI & Enneagram Correlations

Myers-Briggs & Enneagram Types
Introverts (4, 5, 6, 9) — Extraverts (3, 7, 8)
Sensors (6) — Intuitives (4, 5)
Thinkers (3, 5, 8) — Feelers (2, 4, 9)
Judgers (1, 8) — Perceivers (7, 9)

Enneagram Types & MBTI Preferences
Type 1 (J)
Type 2 (F)
Type 3 (E, T)
Type 4 (I, N, F)
Type 5 (I, N, T)
Type 6 (I, S)
Type 7 (E, P)
Type 8 (E, T, J)
Type 9 (I, F, P)​

Notice that adjacent types are more likely to cross-reference differently, for example INT to 4 or 6, or INF to 5.

It all clicked when I stumbled into this Enneagram resource: Typewatch Enneagram: Typewatch Enneagram Type Descriptions

If you aren’t familiar with the Enneagram, you will find it a bit overwhelming, but after some deep thought and introspection and looking at my behaviors, I found the pattern (my N at work):

3 (ET) is very image oriented, needs to achieve in order to be appreciated; I like that, but in the end I do what please me more
4 (INF) needs to be different to have a self-image; I feel I am different from most people, but feel more the need to belong
5 (INT) is curious and wants knowledge, which I relate strongly to, but does that to overcome and underlying fear of not being able to cope with the world, which I find kind of alien
8 (ENJ) are strong-willed, like I believe I am, but also street-smart and instinctive, which I’m not
1 (J) are perfectionistic and idealistic, which I relate to, but I loathe following rules.

(MBTI reference is mine)
Which brings me to 7. As you’ve seen, it correlates (almost unanimously) to EP types. So, the standard description is that 7 are fun-loving, spontaneous, gluttonous people. The are the life of the party. I don’t quite relate to this description, which is very geared towards S types (ESP, that is). So I usually dismissed the 7, which came out low in my tests. But this paragraph from Typewatch changed my perception forever.

Sevens have addictive personalities. They tend to be adventurous, impulsive, exciting, and enthusiastic. The more common sensing-perceiving sevens tend to be focused on more physical gluttony and are the typical party animals. The less common intuitive seven is no less addictive but has as much a need for mental stimulation as a need for physical stimulation. All sevens need the potential for a more fulfulling life more than anything. They need something better in their future to look forward to. The one thing a seven wouldn't relate to in a million years is contentment and a lack of wants.

(bolding is mine)

That was me! The one trait that I always identified myself with is CURIOUS. I reviewed all my knowledge about typology, and it matched.

This could mean that I was, indeed, an ENP at least. So forget about J. I related much more to ENTP than to ENFP, mainly because I believe I’m a more Ti-Fe rather than Fi-Te, or, if you prefer, more T than F, although very balanced. (Ni vs Ne I always had a hard time with, but I knew Ne-Ti can look like Ni, so it could be ENTP after all).

I still had some doubts about the 5 though. Curiosity, knowledge… Could I be an INTP? Or even an INTJ as I initially tested? I started searching 5 vs 7, and found this:
Type 5 & Type 7? Very Confused | Personality Cafe

Fives can be intense and can experience manic states; Sevens can be cerebral and frequently underestimate the extent of their extroversion and their need for external stimulation. So, while the two types are quite different in many respects, a mistype is possible. In particular, it is the Seven who might mistype as a Five; the reverse almost never occurs. Nevertheless, Sevens are much more open to experience of all sorts than are Fives who become easily depleted by too much stimulation. Sevens really are true extroverts (whether they recognize this or not) whereas Fives, even social Fives, are primarily introverted. And while Fives can become scattered and even manic under stress, the overall pattern of their life reveals that this is more the exception than the rule.

Although Fives do not tend to mistype as Seven, some Sevens do initially mistype as Five. Sevens and Fives are both thinking types who generally enjoy a wide range of intellectual and cultural activities. Both types can be idiosyncratic and counter-cultural, and Fives can become scattered and lose focus like Sevens. Nevertheless, Fives tend to be far more focused on their individual intellectual activities than are Sevens. In addition, Sevens are extroverts whereas Fives are true introverts, often pursuing a line of thought until they take it to the very end, unlike Sevens who tend to move on when the intellectual work becomes too immersed in detail. Sevens frequently underestimate the extent of their extroversion, giving them the sense that they are more Five-like than they actually are. Because they sometimes enjoy their time alone, they reason, they could not truly be extroverts. The overall pattern of the Seven's life, however, ought to reveal the pattern of seeking distraction by way of engaging others. The Five's life should reveal a pronounced pattern of withdrawing under stress.

(bolding is again mine)

That was me perfectly! Could I be an Extrovert after all? Well, not an ES, but with my strong EN, yes! Ne, that is, being attracted towards the external object, the idea, the potential in the things of the world, being people but also concepts, plans, the future in general.

The last piece of conflicting information was my allegedly introversion in my young years. I was a shy kid, and a nerd as a teenager; I had to turn 16 to change course, and only when I was 25 you could say that I’ve fully bloomed and became who I am now, at least personality-wise (I’m 47 at the moment). I was said to be more mellow than my age when young, but young at heart now. Very incoherent, uh?

It turns out that ENTPs who were shy when young are quite common:
Can ENTPs be shy? - Quora

So, that was it: ENTP. In the Enneagram, type 7, of the intuitive breed, with an 8 wing.

All my typing problems make sense if you follow the Enneagram movements: tapping into 8 (ENTJ mode), sometimes into 6 when skeptically analyzing (INTP) or 1 when stressed (INTJ mode) or 5 (INTP-INFJ), put me all over the place in I-E and J-P dimensions. As I’m in my midlife, my auxiliary and tertiary functions are more balanced, which led to some F tendencies in test. And my Extroversion is more accommodating and charming than blunt like Te-dom. An ET with a touch of F, so to speak.

It fits nicely, actually, like an Agatha Christie’s mystery when solved.

ENTP 7w8, then.



TL; DR

I’m an ENTP. My Ne (or N with E) is so strong that I’m curious about everything, both about the idea of it and the actual experience. I’m not so fun loving as a sensor, but get very excited about novelty (E) and have the energy and drive to go after my N ideas. I’m rational and analytical (T), with Ti much more strong that Te (Why? more than How?). But I can tap in my ET and show Te if I so decide. But always with Fe being present.

I was raised by an ISFJ mother who taught me the power of detail, so I have a love-hate relationship with my inferior Si: I focus on it, can do it, but loathe it. This shows J tendencies, and makes me go to Enneagram 1 “The perfectionist” when I’m under pressure, to get what I want in life in general (a perfect exam, for example). Then I burn out, and feel the urge to escape from my super-ego!

I plan a lot, thinking about the next step, and the future, but it isn’t a “vision” and a strict plan like Ni-Te in NTJs, it’s just that I see through things, their essence (N) and enjoy rearranging these concepts in different, novel ways, much like Lego blocks, my favorite game when I was a kid. Words, activities, personality traits, cooking ingredients, they all are just pieces of ideas in my mind, which I play and tinker with, to see what could be. Eventually, I put into being some of these arrangements, but just a tiny fractions, there are so many of them!

The hardest part was understanding my Extroversion. I fitted the INT stereotype in my younger years, but I’m sure now: I have much more energy than my INTP friends; it’s just that I had a poorly developed Fe, which looked pretty much like inferior Fe, but it’s not. Preference, not behavior, they say. I was just shy, so with poor social skills. When I started to developed them, my change was spectacular.

I love my Fe now, and use it extensively. Nobody that has known me for less than 20 years would doubt my extroversion: I have a need to connect and s drive to be outside in the world of people and activities, much more than INs in general. But Ne is a tricky thing.

I can “emulate” (for lack of a better word) the leadership of a ENTJ, or the analytical skills of an INTP, or the vision of an INTJ, or the chameleonic sensibility of an INFJ, the enthusiasm of an ENFP, the charisma of an ENFJ, the dreaminess of an INFP… but in the end, I get tired of them all. I am a jack-of-all-trades more than anything, quite a stereotypical trait for an ENTP – Enneagram 7, actually.

I do that not for fear, power, status, perfectionism, knowledge or emotions: I just do it for fun: my curiosity about everything. My kind of fun, that is. I guess I’m just me, in my idiosyncratic way.

I hope you find this useful in some way. I felt the need to share it. I left quite a bit out, feel free to ask me it I was to dense at some point. I thank again [MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] and [MENTION=39780]noname3788[/MENTION], without them I would not have come to this understanding. Thanks!

 

[Vendrah]

Hi!

I’ve finally found my type! It’s been a long journey, a quest for the mystical treasure full of perils and traps, but I could seize the prize and bring it back to share it with my community. I hope you will find some help in the insights I found.

This is a very long post, with a TL;DR at the end which is also too long. I tried to keep it brief, I swear! But there is so much to say…

I started like everybody else: a careless test on 16personalities. I came out as INTJ. From there, I read everything about MBTI and Jung and the Grant Stack, and tested myself, and read more, and got more confused. At one point, I opened a type-me tread here on TC with a telling title:
Please help me type myself – xNxx ???
That was my only certainty: that I was a very strong N. The rest was a mess.
(If you want more background about me and my test results, please check that thread, but be aware that it’s almost 50 posts long!)

My mistake was that I relied too much on type descriptions, which are inconsistent. If you then cherry-pick, you could see yourself as any type: insightful, driven and isolated as an INTJ, analytical and aloof as an INTP, moody and self-absorbed as an INFJ, bossy, determined and bold as an ENTJ, curious, scattered and sensible as an xNFP, inspiring and charming as an ENFJ. I also changed a lot through the years, which muddied the waters even more.

But it all missed the point. What solved the problem was the Enneagram, crossed with MBTI, with a critical help from some friends here on TC: [MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] and [MENTION=39780]noname3788[/MENTION].

(If you are familiar with the Enneagram, skip the spoiler, otherwise you’ll find in it a very brief overview, relevant to this discussion).

The Enneagram is about core motivations and fears. It features 9 types, identified by numbers. They are arranged from 1 to 9 around a circle, with lines connecting each type to two non-adjacent types. The are many type descriptions, which are as misleading as the MBTI ones. I related to many: feeling different and unique as a 4, knowledge-seeking as a 5, multi-talented and versatile as a 7, self-sufficient as an 8, perfectionist as a 1, even result-oriented as a 3.
But the Enneagram has another dimension: it tells you that you can visit different types at some point, if it helps you or you feel like it.
You can always go to the two types next to yours (the one that you visit most is your wing). You can also move along the lines, in two directions. “Disintegrating”, when under stress or mobilizing to meet a challenge, you show the average and unhealthy traits of your disintegration type. “Integrating”, when overcoming your fixations, you show the average and healthy traits of your integration type.

As this is an MBTI post, maybe we could use some MBTI to Enneagram correlations. It’s a strongly debated topic, I will just use the one in this link from now on (just as a reference to help reading this, not to get into a debate about it.)
Myers-Briggs / MBTI & Enneagram Correlations



Notice that adjacent types are more likely to cross-reference differently, for example INT to 4 or 6, or INF to 5.

It all clicked when I stumbled into this Enneagram resource: Typewatch Enneagram: Typewatch Enneagram Type Descriptions

If you aren’t familiar with the Enneagram, you will find it a bit overwhelming, but after some deep thought and introspection and looking at my behaviors, I found the pattern (my N at work):



(MBTI reference is mine)
Which brings me to 7. As you’ve seen, it correlates (almost unanimously) to EP types. So, the standard description is that 7 are fun-loving, spontaneous, gluttonous people. The are the life of the party. I don’t quite relate to this description, which is very geared towards S types (ESP, that is). So I usually dismissed the 7, which came out low in my tests. But this paragraph from Typewatch changed my perception forever.


(bolding is mine)

That was me! The one trait that I always identified myself with is CURIOUS. I reviewed all my knowledge about typology, and it matched.

This could mean that I was, indeed, an ENP at least. So forget about J. I related much more to ENTP than to ENFP, mainly because I believe I’m a more Ti-Fe rather than Fi-Te, or, if you prefer, more T than F, although very balanced. (Ni vs Ne I always had a hard time with, but I knew Ne-Ti can look like Ni, so it could be ENTP after all).

I still had some doubts about the 5 though. Curiosity, knowledge… Could I be an INTP? Or even an INTJ as I initially tested? I started searching 5 vs 7, and found this:
Type 5 & Type 7? Very Confused | Personality Cafe



(bolding is again mine)

That was me perfectly! Could I be an Extrovert after all? Well, not an ES, but with my strong EN, yes! Ne, that is, being attracted towards the external object, the idea, the potential in the things of the world, being people but also concepts, plans, the future in general.

The last piece of conflicting information was my allegedly introversion in my young years. I was a shy kid, and a nerd as a teenager; I had to turn 16 to change course, and only when I was 25 you could say that I’ve fully bloomed and became who I am now, at least personality-wise (I’m 47 at the moment). I was said to be more mellow than my age when young, but young at heart now. Very incoherent, uh?

It turns out that ENTPs who were shy when young are quite common:
Can ENTPs be shy? - Quora

So, that was it: ENTP. In the Enneagram, type 7, of the intuitive breed, with an 8 wing.

All my typing problems make sense if you follow the Enneagram movements: tapping into 8 (ENTJ mode), sometimes into 6 when skeptically analyzing (INTP) or 1 when stressed (INTJ mode) or 5 (INTP-INFJ), put me all over the place in I-E and J-P dimensions. As I’m in my midlife, my auxiliary and tertiary functions are more balanced, which led to some F tendencies in test. And my Extroversion is more accommodating and charming than blunt like Te-dom. An ET with a touch of F, so to speak.

It fits nicely, actually, like an Agatha Christie’s mystery when solved.

ENTP 7w8, then.



TL; DR

I’m an ENTP. My Ne (or N with E) is so strong that I’m curious about everything, both about the idea of it and the actual experience. I’m not so fun loving as a sensor, but get very excited about novelty (E) and have the energy and drive to go after my N ideas. I’m rational and analytical (T), with Ti much more strong that Te (Why? more than How?). But I can tap in my ET and show Te if I so decide. But always with Fe being present.

I was raised by an ISFJ mother who taught me the power of detail, so I have a love-hate relationship with my inferior Si: I focus on it, can do it, but loathe it. This shows J tendencies, and makes me go to Enneagram 1 “The perfectionist” when I’m under pressure, to get what I want in life in general (a perfect exam, for example). Then I burn out, and feel the urge to escape from my super-ego!

I plan a lot, thinking about the next step, and the future, but it isn’t a “vision” and a strict plan like Ni-Te in NTJs, it’s just that I see through things, their essence (N) and enjoy rearranging these concepts in different, novel ways, much like Lego blocks, my favorite game when I was a kid. Words, activities, personality traits, cooking ingredients, they all are just pieces of ideas in my mind, which I play and tinker with, to see what could be. Eventually, I put into being some of these arrangements, but just a tiny fractions, there are so many of them!

The hardest part was understanding my Extroversion. I fitted the INT stereotype in my younger years, but I’m sure now: I have much more energy than my INTP friends; it’s just that I had a poorly developed Fe, which looked pretty much like inferior Fe, but it’s not. Preference, not behavior, they say. I was just shy, so with poor social skills. When I started to developed them, my change was spectacular.

I love my Fe now, and use it extensively. Nobody that has known me for less than 20 years would doubt my extroversion: I have a need to connect and s drive to be outside in the world of people and activities, much more than INs in general. But Ne is a tricky thing.

I can “emulate” (for lack of a better word) the leadership of a ENTJ, or the analytical skills of an INTP, or the vision of an INTJ, or the chameleonic sensibility of an INFJ, the enthusiasm of an ENFP, the charisma of an ENFJ, the dreaminess of an INFP… but in the end, I get tired of them all. I am a jack-of-all-trades more than anything, quite a stereotypical trait for an ENTP – Enneagram 7, actually.

I do that not for fear, power, status, perfectionism, knowledge or emotions: I just do it for fun: my curiosity about everything. My kind of fun, that is. I guess I’m just me, in my idiosyncratic way.

I hope you find this useful in some way. I felt the need to share it. I left quite a bit out, feel free to ask me it I was to dense at some point. I thank again [MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] and [MENTION=39780]noname3788[/MENTION], without them I would not have come to this understanding. Thanks!

You are welcome, perhaps?
But, still, i wouldnt be so sure, and, secondly, I wouldnt see you at all as a pure ENTP, as mainly ENTP that is super fine.

The 7s are 'true extroverts', that might mean biogenic extraversion; I had seem to forgot to see the enneagram in biogenic terms (although type 3 might even disappear in biogenic terms), interesting...

One thing that I noticed is that the relations of MBTI and Enneagram you show are correct, but by the view of PerC thread, they work on a framework where apparently the combinations of MBTI and Enneagram are quite limited - in a way that they do imply that 7s must be extravert and 5s must be introvert. Whatever that works on a biogenic level is a good question, though. How the enneagram looks in biogenic? I have to put some thought of this, specially because I might be a biogenic 7 instead of 5 or 9.

 

[noname3788]

[MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] would you like to link the PerC thread?
[MENTION=40271]mancino[/MENTION] The last thing I want to do nowis to inspire doubt on your self-typing, but there's something that bothers me about the whole "narrowing down" process. I often feel like "studying functions" is not about finding one's natural preferences, but it's creating the preferences! I don't want to say that ENTP is inaccurate, what I want to say is that it's not the entirety. And focusing too much on the label definitely has it's disadvantages.

If you then cherry-pick, you could see yourself as any type: insightful, driven and isolated as an INTJ, analytical and aloof as an INTP, moody and self-absorbed as an INFJ, bossy, determined and bold as an ENTJ, curious, scattered and sensible as an xNFP, inspiring and charming as an ENFJ. I also changed a lot through the years, which muddied the waters even more.

In all seriousness, it's all a part of you. And it's very well worth to keep and flourish all those aspects of yourself. So, I strongly disagree with your notion of seeing it as a mistake. If anything, I know you as one of the most well-rounded persons.

The whole enneagram approach is a different beast, it's more detailed and has the additional layer of the developmental levels. A healthy 7 might not relate to unhealthy 7 aspects (like being extremely distractible), and there's much more room for nuance and individuality than within MBTI types. But that's something that these Enneagram to MBTI correlations will likely miss, and most enneagram assessments also dismiss the levels in favor of presenting all types at an average level. That said, I feel 7 is a good fit, but like MBTI, you DO show aspects of other enneatypes as well, some introverted ones, some are extroverted.

So lastly, extroversion. I had my own running with I/E, and this time I just fully agree with what you wrote about it. Most resources about typology are aimed at IN's, and many of their descriptions about extroversion actually describe ES types (and those not even well). And hell, extroversion is quite misunderstood. The most obvious one: Extroverts don't get energized by ANY social interaction. The people who they surround themselves with are important to the whole equation. An extrovert who can't connect with anyone at a party will likely leave earlier than an introvert, and the whole experience of not being included is extremely draining for an E, not to mention that they'll be bored to death there. Also, live's experiences can alter someone's E/I experience a lot (but usually flips it towards introversion than the other way around). A shy extrovert won't initiate conversations much and also won't be described as outgoing. What differentiates this from an actual introvert is that the shy extrovert is not happy with that state and secretly wishes to participate more. And then, there's also ambiversion, since technically it's only a dichotomy in MBTI.

 

[Vendrah]

[MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] would you like to link the PerC thread?

[MENTION=40271]mancino[/MENTION] The last thing I want to do nowis to inspire doubt on your self-typing, but there's something that bothers me about the whole "narrowing down" process. I often feel like "studying functions" is not about finding one's natural preferences, but it's creating the preferences! I don't want to say that ENTP is inaccurate, what I want to say is that it's not the entirety. And focusing too much on the label definitely has it's disadvantages.


In all seriousness, it's all a part of you. And it's very well worth to keep and flourish all those aspects of yourself. So, I strongly disagree with your notion of seeing it as a mistake. If anything, I know you as one of the most well-rounded persons.

The whole enneagram approach is a different beast, it's more detailed and has the additional layer of the developmental levels. A healthy 7 might not relate to unhealthy 7 aspects (like being extremely distractible), and there's much more room for nuance and individuality than within MBTI types. But that's something that these Enneagram to MBTI correlations will likely miss, and most enneagram assessments also dismiss the levels in favor of presenting all types at an average level. That said, I feel 7 is a good fit, but like MBTI, you DO show aspects of other enneatypes as well, some introverted ones, some are extroverted.

So lastly, extroversion. I had my own running with I/E, and this time I just fully agree with what you wrote about it. Most resources about typology are aimed at IN's, and many of their descriptions about extroversion actually describe ES types (and those not even well). And hell, extroversion is quite misunderstood. The most obvious one: Extroverts don't get energized by ANY social interaction. The people who they surround themselves with are important to the whole equation. An extrovert who can't connect with anyone at a party will likely leave earlier than an introvert, and the whole experience of not being included is extremely draining for an E, not to mention that they'll be bored to death there. Also, live's experiences can alter someone's E/I experience a lot (but usually flips it towards introversion than the other way around). A shy extrovert won't initiate conversations much and also won't be described as outgoing. What differentiates this from an actual introvert is that the shy extrovert is not happy with that state and secretly wishes to participate more. And then, there's also ambiversion, since technically it's only a dichotomy in MBTI.

The PerC is thread is just the PerC thread on the 1st post, which is here:
Type 5 & Type 7? Very Confused | Personality Cafe

The point of healthy vs unhealthy enneagram is a good one.
The conversions should work on the middle actually.
And I had recently checked, using Big 5 as a bridge with my 2 calculator quizzes plus the enneagram/MBTI correlations (Big 5 to MBTI, Big 5 to Personality Disorders), the personality disorders that the enneagram institute claimed each enneagram has from what they are supposed to have with my link (Enneagram->2 most common MBTI on the specific enneagram->Big 5->Personality Disorders) and they mostly match. For Enneagram 7, Histronic disorder matches. So, on the unhealthy part, it should still work. On the most healthy part, I dont know, perhaps it does.

About E/I good points... My quiz about E/I was the least problematic quiz of all, no doubt, no headaches! It worked quite well. I think seeing E/I on the terms from there captures a lot of what you said.

 

[batteries included]

[MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] would you like to link the PerC thread?

[MENTION=40271]mancino[/MENTION] The last thing I want to do nowis to inspire doubt on your self-typing, but there's something that bothers me about the whole "narrowing down" process. I often feel like "studying functions" is not about finding one's natural preferences, but it's creating the preferences! I don't want to say that ENTP is inaccurate, what I want to say is that it's not the entirety. And focusing too much on the label definitely has it's disadvantages.


In all seriousness, it's all a part of you. And it's very well worth to keep and flourish all those aspects of yourself. So, I strongly disagree with your notion of seeing it as a mistake. If anything, I know you as one of the most well-rounded persons.

The whole enneagram approach is a different beast, it's more detailed and has the additional layer of the developmental levels. A healthy 7 might not relate to unhealthy 7 aspects (like being extremely distractible), and there's much more room for nuance and individuality than within MBTI types. But that's something that these Enneagram to MBTI correlations will likely miss, and most enneagram assessments also dismiss the levels in favor of presenting all types at an average level. That said, I feel 7 is a good fit, but like MBTI, you DO show aspects of other enneatypes as well, some introverted ones, some are extroverted.

So lastly, extroversion. I had my own running with I/E, and this time I just fully agree with what you wrote about it. Most resources about typology are aimed at IN's, and many of their descriptions about extroversion actually describe ES types (and those not even well). And hell, extroversion is quite misunderstood. The most obvious one: Extroverts don't get energized by ANY social interaction. The people who they surround themselves with are important to the whole equation. An extrovert who can't connect with anyone at a party will likely leave earlier than an introvert, and the whole experience of not being included is extremely draining for an E, not to mention that they'll be bored to death there. Also, live's experiences can alter someone's E/I experience a lot (but usually flips it towards introversion than the other way around). A shy extrovert won't initiate conversations much and also won't be described as outgoing. What differentiates this from an actual introvert is that the shy extrovert is not happy with that state and secretly wishes to participate more. And then, there's also ambiversion, since technically it's only a dichotomy in MBTI.

Keep in mind I haven't read the whole thread, but this response caught my eye. "Extroverts don't get energized by ANY social interactions." Agreed, and this is sort of exemplified with ENTP/ENFP, the "most introverted of the extroverts." Based on my understanding (I know a decent amount of them), and especially with ENTP for some reason, is that they are very selective with who they socialize with. ENFPs are like this as well, but not as much imo.

 

[mancino]

Thanks [MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION], [MENTION=39780]noname3788[/MENTION] and [MENTION=38556]batteries included[/MENTION] for weighin in.

I had written a long answer, but it got lost somewhere on my hard drive...

So I'll be brief this time.

"Extroverts don't get energized by ANY social interactions.", [MENTION=39780]noname3788[/MENTION], that explains my difficulties understanding my E. Through the lens of ENTP, when I had strong Ti and weak Fe, I saw myself as an introvert, even acted like one. But now that my Fe is in full swing, there is no doubt about it. I always came out E on good Big5 test, although not by a wide margin, IIRC.

5 vs 7 being I vs E is a good wrap up, a bit rough but it works. For me, movements along the Enneagram where key.
My current understanding is this: you can tap into both of your wings (one is stronger, but you can visit both, according to some sources you can even change your dominant wing throughout life). You can "disintegrate" when stressed or mobilizing for action; you can "integrate" when relaxed or exhausted. The catch is that you will show average to unhealthy traits of your disintegration point, but it's easy to go there; it's harder to go to your integration point, but you will show average to healthy traits of it.

So, according to this:
if you show 6 signs, then no clue about being 5 or 7, it's a wing for both (even if not dominant)
If you show 8 signs, it could be a wing for 7, but integration for 5. Unhealthy 8 signs points towards being 7 (my case)
If you show 5 signs, if it is unhealthy, it points to being 5, because it's the integration point for 7.
If you show 4 signs, both healthy or not, it's a 5 sign, its wing (even if not dominant)
If you show 1 signs, it should be average to unhealthy and points to being a 7, it's its disintegration point (my case)
[MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION], about Enneagram and disorders, I agree, especially after reading Claudio Naranjo. But be aware that a coping strategy to avoid the unhealthy traits of your type is to move somewhere else! This is my case: I never related to being scattered as a 7, which was kind of weird because it should be expected both if you are a 7 (sometimes at least) or a 5 (disintegrating). But my nurture makes me hard on myself in that cases (superego) and makes me disintegrate to 1. So I become self-censoring, stubborn, very active (gut-body) and resolute to get things done (8 flavor as well), criticizing people in a somewhat hypocritical way, being nervous (unhealthy 7 there) and frustrated by the imperfections of the world. It's my "ISTJ mode" (or you can call it inferior Si grip, but I don't believe in such a thing per se). The key is that it doesn't last long, it's draining but it works and it lets me go back to average 7 again quicker.

A practical example: when I was a kid, I loathed homework. I was such a quick learner that I never needed to study, up to high school. But when I had an assignment, I was taught both by my teachers and my mom (all Si-dom) to stick to it, get it done and out of the way. It was very easy for me to force myself with a very minimal effort (much less than my peers) and get straight -A grades. I learned that the effort was worth it. Growing up, the effort increased but I had this perfectionist mode as a key resource: from a cost-benefit standpoint, it was the best strategy to do what I wanted and have fun.

That is the summary for me: it's all towards being free. Not "fun" as it gets described in some sources for 7s, but freedom. The freer, the better. I don't have these Ni obsessions, because the world is too interesting!

But if you see types as static and self-contained, it makes typing harder - and misses that people can shape-shift if need be.

 

[Vendrah]

Thanks [MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION], [MENTION=39780]noname3788[/MENTION] and [MENTION=38556]batteries included[/MENTION] for weighin in.

I had written a long answer, but it got lost somewhere on my hard drive...

So I'll be brief this time.

"Extroverts don't get energized by ANY social interactions.", [MENTION=39780]noname3788[/MENTION], that explains my difficulties understanding my E. Through the lens of ENTP, when I had strong Ti and weak Fe, I saw myself as an introvert, even acted like one. But now that my Fe is in full swing, there is no doubt about it. I always came out E on good Big5 test, although not by a wide margin, IIRC.

5 vs 7 being I vs E is a good wrap up, a bit rough but it works. For me, movements along the Enneagram where key.
My current understanding is this: you can tap into both of your wings (one is stronger, but you can visit both, according to some sources you can even change your dominant wing throughout life). You can "disintegrate" when stressed or mobilizing for action; you can "integrate" when relaxed or exhausted. The catch is that you will show average to unhealthy traits of your disintegration point, but it's easy to go there; it's harder to go to your integration point, but you will show average to healthy traits of it.

So, according to this:
if you show 6 signs, then no clue about being 5 or 7, it's a wing for both (even if not dominant)
If you show 8 signs, it could be a wing for 7, but integration for 5. Unhealthy 8 signs points towards being 7 (my case)
If you show 5 signs, if it is unhealthy, it points to being 5, because it's the integration point for 7.
If you show 4 signs, both healthy or not, it's a 5 sign, its wing (even if not dominant)
If you show 1 signs, it should be average to unhealthy and points to being a 7, it's its disintegration point (my case)

[MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION], about Enneagram and disorders, I agree, especially after reading Claudio Naranjo. But be aware that a coping strategy to avoid the unhealthy traits of your type is to move somewhere else! This is my case: I never related to being scattered as a 7, which was kind of weird because it should be expected both if you are a 7 (sometimes at least) or a 5 (disintegrating). But my nurture makes me hard on myself in that cases (superego) and makes me disintegrate to 1. So I become self-censoring, stubborn, very active (gut-body) and resolute to get things done (8 flavor as well), criticizing people in a somewhat hypocritical way, being nervous (unhealthy 7 there) and frustrated by the imperfections of the world. It's my "ISTJ mode" (or you can call it inferior Si grip, but I don't believe in such a thing per se). The key is that it doesn't last long, it's draining but it works and it lets me go back to average 7 again quicker.

A practical example: when I was a kid, I loathed homework. I was such a quick learner that I never needed to study, up to high school. But when I had an assignment, I was taught both by my teachers and my mom (all Si-dom) to stick to it, get it done and out of the way. It was very easy for me to force myself with a very minimal effort (much less than my peers) and get straight -A grades. I learned that the effort was worth it. Growing up, the effort increased but I had this perfectionist mode as a key resource: from a cost-benefit standpoint, it was the best strategy to do what I wanted and have fun.

That is the summary for me: it's all towards being free. Not "fun" as it gets described in some sources for 7s, but freedom. The freer, the better. I don't have these Ni obsessions, because the world is too interesting!

But if you see types as static and self-contained, it makes typing harder - and misses that people can shape-shift if need be.

I do think that the more dynamic routes are better, but as you know I dont trust these sources much because they dont really have any interest into applying what they say. What I mean is, they basically assign a "beautiful" symetry with arrows to disintegrations/growth and etc... in visual patterns and then advocate/create reasons for their arrows. But we dont have any real reasoning behind them - what I mean is, basically, there is no specific reason that the peaceful type is type 9 and not 8, or that the domineering type is exactly number 8 and not number 2.

The article that you had passed me with the biogenic,sociogenic, etc... That one is doing it on a more honest and seriously way - there is reasoning, there is some expectancy (although perhaps only me see it) of being applied and there is even a note at the end saying "All of this could be wrong".

So, I dont trust any of these routes. At best, this could inspire me to draw something, like a theory, inspired on it.