A popular misconception about identity politics...

[ceecee]

Sometimes I worry the only way we'll get a really progressive president will be if some plutocratic FDR type takes it again. I mean, better than nothing, I'll take it, just a shame that the last remotely progressive candidate to win was a rich guy with the connections and the money to win. And that was quite literally a lifetime ago.

Maybe but FDR was a special case. I think he would have been just another shitty plutocrat if not for his polio. And meeting others, especially children, with polio showed him a much clearer path. Not to mention Eleanor who was incredible and 100% about service to the people. However, Teddy Roosevelt was a real innovator and his ideas were 100 years ahead of his time. Even nationalized health care.

But those days are totally gone and after Trump, I don't know how people still believe that rich = intelligent automatically without even verifying it. Trump has been a sinecure his entire adult life, it's all very well documented. But I've learned that Trump is what a poor person often imagines a rich person is like.

Nice to see Bloomberg go down in flames. Even his billions couldn't make him president.

- - - Updated - - -

JB Pritzker in Illinois seems a little like that. I didn't vote for him in the primary, but he seems to have some decent policies like the Fair Tax even though he comes from an insanely wealthy family.

Yeah so far he has been ok. So it's possible.

 

[á´…eparted]

The actual right are terrifying and repressive and completely off the rails as far as being a decent human are concerned. I say that last part specifically because if you line up to be counted with them, it makes no difference what kind of a good Christian you are or how much you donate to a soup kitchen. None. The difference between them and me is that there should never be soup kitchens in this country. They shouldn't be required.

But I don't find them to be as dangerous overall to the country. That's people like Joe Biden, Michael Bloomberg, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, they are. Because moderates for the most part just don't want to be bothered. They want to go back to not caring about politics and the left, the real left, knows this. That's why the civility police are out in force on CNN and MSNBC. But in the end, they will make sure they take the black southern vote, the women's vote, the Latinx and Asian vote happily. And continue to do nothing for them.

The bold is the part that I just can't agree with. Nothing is as dangerous as fascism. Keeping Trump in will ensure our swift doom. Though I see where you're coming from because their rose-colored glass view could easily enable it. I do not believe for a second that the moderate wing is evil or dark by any stretch. The moderates emphatically do not want authoratarianism, and at least have some awareness on how to do something about it once they have enough power (i.e. the GOP doesn't have a majority). The impeachment hearings made it very obvious how important foreign policy is abroad, and that portion was for the most part working and improving, so at least that will be repaired, and it really needs to. I don't think it's the moderates are so ignorant as to know what threat the GOP faces us at this point given all the evidence that is out there.

Granted, I do still think this country is toast. Because he won't touch domestic issues a Biden presidency will just give us another 4 years to nose-level tread (which on a selfish level I'll take because it gives me more time to leave the country), possibly shorter if he takes a "we need to reach across the aisle" position. Unless he changes/evolves quite a bit, in 2024 we'll see a voter-led GOP take over that will be permanent. My hope is that over the coming months the progressive wing keeps its momentum and really pushes the DNC to take into account the issues we are facing. The moderates most major mistake will be to try and level with the GOP, and not seeking out all the illegal actors and harshly punishing all of them and installing sweeping reform to thwart anything like this ever again. I do have confidence they'll do the latter two, but it's not enough on its own.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Nice to see Bloomberg go down in flames. Even his billions couldn't make him president.

I guess he picked the wrong party to attempt to buy. There's hope for democrats yet. Although he has already bought a fair number of congresspeople, so we still kind of lose either way.

 

[ceecee]

The bold is the part that I just can't agree with. Nothing is as dangerous as fascism. Keeping Trump in will ensure our swift doom. Though I see where you're coming from because their rose-colored glass view could easily enable it. I do not believe for a second that the moderate wing is evil or dark by any stretch. The moderates emphatically do not want authoratarianism, and at least have some awareness on how to do something about it once they have enough power (i.e. the GOP doesn't have a majority). The impeachment hearings made it very obvious how important foreign policy is abroad, and that portion was for the most part working and improving, so at least that will be repaired, and it really needs to. I don't think it's the moderates are so ignorant as to know what threat the GOP faces us at this point given all the evidence that is out there.

Granted, I do still think this country is toast. Because he won't touch domestic issues a Biden presidency will just give us another 4 years to nose-level tread (which on a selfish level I'll take because it gives me more time to leave the country), possibly shorter if he takes a "we need to reach across the aisle" position. Unless he changes/evolves quite a bit, in 2024 we'll see a voter-led GOP take over that will be permanent. My hope is that over the coming months the progressive wing keeps its momentum and really pushes the DNC to take into account the issues we are facing. The moderates most major mistake will be to try and level with the GOP, and not seeking out all the illegal actors and harshly punishing all of them and installing sweeping reform to thwart anything like this ever again. I do have confidence they'll do the latter two, but it's not enough on its own.

I didn't say they weren't dangerous. They are more dangerous because they have made it very clear they are ok with fashy types. They are ok with throwing a bone to the extreme right. They are ok continuing on the path to a surveillance and police state, they are ok with increasing the military budget to make war in other countries. They are ok with remaining beholden to insurance company, pharma cartels and oil and gas lobbyists. Is any of this untrue? The Democratic Party, including Joe Biden are GOP-Lite. Obama was as well. I'm sorry but that is true going by their actions and votes.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

The moderates most major mistake will be to try and level with the GOP, and not seeking out all the illegal actors and harshly punishing all of them and installing sweeping reform to thwart anything like this ever again. I do have confidence they'll do the latter two, but it's not enough on its own.

The moderates? I don't. They'll just say "we need to move forward" like Obama did, which is why we have Trump now because there were no consequences before. Consider how much importance moderates place on "norms." The "norms" will trump everything else here. So what if people broke the law or put kids in cages? Gotta keep those institutional norms in place so that people have respect for the Senate or the Presidency or some such bulllshit.

 

[á´…eparted]

I didn't say they weren't dangerous. They are more dangerous because they have made it very clear they are ok with fashy types. They are ok with throwing a bone to the extreme right. They are ok continuing on the path to a surveillance and police state, they are ok with increasing the military budget to make war in other countries. They are ok with remaining beholden to insurance company, pharma cartels and oil and gas lobbyists. Is any of this untrue? The Democratic Party, including Joe Biden are GOP-Lite. Obama was as well. I'm sorry but that is true going by their actions and votes.

That is all correct, but it's not fair or even correct to say they are more dangerous than actual fascists that are currently in power. The democrats aren't creating a modern day SS (ICE) killing and permanently traumatizing people, flagrently disregarding the law, operating from a purely anti-intellectual position, supporting foreign fascist and corrupt governments. The list goes on endlessly. The GOP is a literal physical threat to the entire world, there is absolutely no comparison to them. With the democrats (which are indeed right wing) we at least have some chance to change. There are young politicans entering the fray that aren't having it anymore, the movement of the progressive wing has been growing and continues to grow. The DNC isn't impossible to change over the coming years by winning local contests and playing a long game to the future. They aren't entirely evil, and as bad as it is it's what we got and what we have to try and work with, and they aren't desiring to create suffering or kill mass swaths of the population. With the GOP? There is no change, no truth, and only suffering.

Would you rather take 4 years to keep trying to work towards a better future, or ensure our demise now?

The democrats are not worse or more dangerous than the GOP is.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

The democrats are not worse or more dangerous than the GOP is.

I agree, but on the other hand, I am frustrated with these dipshits praising "bipartisanship" and "compromise" with these clowns as some kind of holy virtue. That is dangerous and harmful, if not as dangerous and harmful. Do you know why Sanders considered primaring Obama in 2012? It's because Obama was considering reaching across the aisle to cut social security. He backed down from that. Can you imagine the concessions Biden would consider making to the Trump-era GOP?

I can see both sides of it here, and I'm somewhat in the middle. I don't trust establishment Democrats, and yet, I do consider them better than the alternative.

 

[á´…eparted]

The moderates? I don't. They'll just say "we need to move forward" like Obama did, which is why we have Trump now because there were no consequences before. Consider how much importance moderates place on "norms." The "norms" will trump everything else here. So what if people broke the law or put kids in cages? Gotta keep those institutional norms in place so that people have respect for the Senate or the Presidency or some such bulllshit.

I am extremely concerned that this what they will do, but they might not. The Democrats are extremely aware of the illegality of the trump administration and the GOP at large. The reason very little has been done is because McConnell is at the helm in the senate and the executive branch is currently compromised. Do you really think that if they democrats weren't in charge they wouldn't have convicted and removed Trump from office? Do you really think they wouldn't be seeking huge numerous investigations into countless individuals into many of these people? So many of the actions taken by these people are so legally cut and dry obvious that its piss easy to win and convict (unless they run into a trump-appointed judge).

I understand why you and others feel this way, but we also have to remember that the trump administration is extremely abnormal, with extreme illegality. This is not a norms situation, and the democrats do actually see this. I watched the impeachment hearings, the democrats DO get it, and once there is a clear path forward action will be taken as it literally has to be done.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I am extremely concerned that this what they will do, but they might not. The Democrats are extremely aware of the illegality of the trump administration and the GOP at large.

They are aware, and yet what do they do? They vote to continue the Patriot Act. Adam Schiff called Trump a "dangerous demagogue", and yet he voted to keep giving him more executive authority and powers of surveillance.

The reason very little has been done is because McConnell is at the helm in the senate and the executive branch is currently compromised. Do you really think that if they democrats weren't in charge they wouldn't have convicted and removed Trump from office? Do you really think they wouldn't be seeking huge numerous investigations into countless individuals into many of these people?

Part of me wonders if they only tried impeachment because they knew it would be unsuccessful. When Pelosi assumed the speakership in 2006, with a Democratic Senate, she said "impeachment is off the table."

I understand why you and others feel this way, but we also have to remember that the trump administration is extremely abnormal, with extreme illegality. This is not a norms situation, and the democrats do actually see this. I watched the impeachment hearings, the democrats DO get it, and once there is a clear path forward action will be taken as it literally has to be done.

It's only continuing on a trend of abnormality and illegality from previous presidents. It's escalated them, but the trends didn't emerge out of whole cloth. And the reason I think the trends escalate is because Democrats do nothing to actually stop them or change things when they actually have power, citing "norms" and "respect for institutions."

 

[The Cat]

The bold is the part that I just can't agree with. Nothing is as dangerous as fascism. Keeping Trump in will ensure our swift doom. Though I see where you're coming from because their rose-colored glass view could easily enable it. I do not believe for a second that the moderate wing is evil or dark by any stretch. The moderates emphatically do not want authoratarianism, and at least have some awareness on how to do something about it once they have enough power (i.e. the GOP doesn't have a majority). The impeachment hearings made it very obvious how important foreign policy is abroad, and that portion was for the most part working and improving, so at least that will be repaired, and it really needs to. I don't think it's the moderates are so ignorant as to know what threat the GOP faces us at this point given all the evidence that is out there.

Granted, I do still think this country is toast. Because he won't touch domestic issues a Biden presidency will just give us another 4 years to nose-level tread (which on a selfish level I'll take because it gives me more time to leave the country), possibly shorter if he takes a "we need to reach across the aisle" position. Unless he changes/evolves quite a bit, in 2024 we'll see a voter-led GOP take over that will be permanent. My hope is that over the coming months the progressive wing keeps its momentum and really pushes the DNC to take into account the issues we are facing. The moderates most major mistake will be to try and level with the GOP, and not seeking out all the illegal actors and harshly punishing all of them and installing sweeping reform to thwart anything like this ever again. I do have confidence they'll do the latter two, but it's not enough on its own.

Running with scissors is. Especially if your shoes are filled with razor blades. I know I know "Who would do that?" Who would just go along with fascism though too? Historically? Quite a few, quite a few.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

The modern Democratic party is part of the problem; they've enabled this bullshit and permitted it to escalate to this point due to their veneration of "norms" and "compromise." Nothing is more important than "norms" not even the rule of law.

 

[á´…eparted]

They are aware, and yet what do they do? They vote to continue the Patriot Act. Adam Schiff called Trump a "dangerous demagogue", and yet he voted to keep giving him more executive authority and powers of surveillance.

Part of me wonders if they only tried impeachment because they knew it would be unsuccessful. When Pelosi assumed the speakership in 2006, with a Democratic Senate, she said "impeachment is off the table."

It's only continuing on a trend of abnormality and illegality from previous presidents. It's escalated them, but the trends didn't emerge out of whole cloth. And the reason I think the trends escalate is because Democrats do nothing to actually stop them or change things when they actually have power, citing "norms" and "respect for institutions."

They certainly aren't doing enough that is for sure, but I am being realistic. We have a single option right now: vote in whoever is the democratic nominee, because at least some attempts will be made to reign it in. At the same time though I won't delude myself; there is no way enough is going to be done to fix the problems in this country so I will be getting out within the year.

I've watched Schiff during the impeachment hearings and listened to him at the trials. There is no way at all that he genuinely doesn't want to stop fascism and the illegality of the GOP. Recent times have made it so clear what the issues we face are that even the denser moderates get it and understand what's at stake. Do the fully get it? No, but something is better than nothing. Same thing with Pelosi, she really does get it, and she understands very well what she can and can't do in this current landscape. Will they do enough to solve our domestic problems? Not likely, but they DO get the dangerous of fascism and that the Trump administration needs to be dealt with. They will at least try their hardest to undo the damage of the trump administration, and that does count for something big.

We'll have to wait and see. At this point I am stopping following the news daily. I have been doing so since August (prior I took a year off) once impeachment was anounnced an I felt that I had to as a civic duty, and I am utterly exhausted and drained from it all. Following everything that has been happening for the last 6 months feels like it has taken years off of my life. Between everything the GOP has been doing, how terrifying all of this is, the sheer lack of ability of anyone to appreciably stop them, the constant in-fighting on the left, the arrogance of so many people, the complete lack of accountability, the psychological warefare being imbeded within pretty much every single news outlet, the ignorance of so many. I'm wiped and crushed from it all. Super Tuesday was my cutoff point unless something happened that indicated I needed to keep following, and now that the results made it quite clear what's going to occur on the left I no longer need to pay daily attention. My duty is done. All that matters is to vote whoever gets the nomination. I'll give my vote and that is the extent of what I can do. I now need to devote my energy to taking care of myself and my own future now that I know what I need to do and can do.

All we can do is try out best with the hand we are dealt, and push for what we need as much as each of us individually can.

Running with scissors is. Especially if your shoes are filled with razor blades. I know I know "Who would do that?" Who would just go along with fascism though too? Historically? Quite a few, quite a few.

The bold is exactly why Trump and the GOP cannot stay in power.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

They certainly aren't doing enough that is for sure, but I am being realistic. We have a single option right now: vote in whoever is the democratic nominee, because at least some attempts will be made to reign it in. At the same time though I won't delude myself; there is no way enough is going to be done to fix the problems in this country so I will be getting out within the year.

I've watched Schiff during the impeachment hearings and listened to him at the trials. There is no way at all that he genuinely doesn't want to stop fascism and the illegality of the GOP. Recent times have made it so clear what the issues we face are that even the denser moderates get it and understand what's at stake. Do the fully get it? No, but something is better than nothing. Same thing with Pelosi, she really does get it, and she understands very well what she can and can't do in this current landscape. Will they do enough to solve our domestic problems? Not likely, but they DO get the dangerous of fascism and that the Trump administration needs to be dealt with. They will at least try their hardest to undo the damage of the trump administration, and that does count for something big.

We'll have to wait and see. At this point I am stopping following the news daily. I have been doing so since August (prior I took a year off) once impeachment was anounnced an I felt that I had to as a civic duty, and I am utterly exhausted and drained from it all. Following everything that has been happening for the last 6 months feels like it has taken years off of my life. Between everything the GOP has been doing, how terrifying all of this is, the sheer lack of ability of anyone to appreciably stop them, the constant in-fighting on the left, the arrogance of so many people, the complete lack of accountability, the psychological warefare being imbeded within pretty much every single news outlet, the ignorance of so many. I'm wiped and crushed from it all. Super Tuesday was my cutoff point unless something happened that indicated I needed to keep following, and now that the results made it quite clear what's going to occur on the left I no longer need to pay daily attention. My duty is done. All that matters is to vote whoever gets the nomination. I'll give my vote and that is the extent of what I can do. I now need to devote my energy to taking care of myself and my own future now that I know what I need to do and can do.

All we can do is try out best with the hand we are dealt, and push for what we need as much as each of us individually can.

I've said before that I'd vote for whoever wins the most delegates, unless it's Bloomberg. So, yeah, I'd vote for Biden in November. I wouldn't knock on doors for him, though. That requires conviction, and I don't have enough about him. Sorry, but I don't like feeling like a salesman selling a product I personally think is crap just because the competitor is festering crap.

I think Biden could win in November, but it requires that he doesn't pull a Hillary and rest on his laurels just because "OMG Donald Trump is unhinged and unqualified and it's my turn." Unfortunately, I'm not convinced that him, or the people around him, have the good sense to avoid doing just that. Given how prominent the narrative within the establishment of Sanders and Russia as the only things that cost Hillary the presidency, with HIllary herself playing no role in her loss, I'm not sure their post-mortem analysis of how to do better next time was up to snuff.

 

[á´…eparted]

I've said before that I'd vote for whoever wins the most delegates, unless it's Bloomberg. So, yeah, I'd vote for Biden in November. I wouldn't knock on doors for him, though. That requires conviction, and I don't have enough about him. Sorry, but I don't like feeling like a salesman selling a product I personally think is crap just because the competitor is festering crap.

If he loses the popular vote, this will be why. The folks who will do this important work don't like him and only see him as requirement to move forward and will have no motivation to do this. It's really really bad, but I understand why this is the case. My hope is that people will start to coalesce around a message of smaller state-level contests, and tack on biden to that as an after-thought as that might be enough to get people out and voting properly.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

If he loses the popular vote, this will be why. The folks who will do this important work don't like him and only see him as requirement to move forward and will have no motivation to do this.

I'm sorry, but I can't do that. People who considered him "electable" should have thought about that. You're leaving the country anyway. I'm the one who has to live with my choice.

it takes a rare candidate to get me to knock on doors for the first time in 10 years, and the guy in this race who could do that isn't Biden.

He might change my mind if he shows me he considers my support at least as important as a moderate Republican. If he takes me for granted and shows no interest in enacting policies I want (it would be as simple as coming out in favor of repealing the patriot act, for instance), I will do nothing other than vote in November.

I live in Illinois, anyway. If people really like him just because he's Obama's VP, that will help him here.

It's really really bad, but I understand why this is the case. My hope is that people will start to coalesce around a message of smaller state-level contests, and tack on biden to that as an after-thought as that might be enough to get people out and voting properly.

I'm focusing on a ballot measure, but I'm not permitted to advocate for a specific candidate with the organization I'm part with because of laws. I need to check out the League of Women voters and learn more about the local and state-wide offices. I think someone is running against my congressman in the primary, who has been in office for a long time. Maybe it's still not too late to canvass for that person.

 

[Maou]

[MENTION=40267]ısoprene[/MENTION]

Do you realize how authoritarian and fear mongering you come off as?

A Republic is about working together, and coming to compromise that best suits everyone. Not just one political party. "Purging" and "thwarting" anything you deem inappropriate or dangerous is literally fascism. You are SUPPOSE to work with the other side, and come to AGREEMENTS. Not shoot down everything just because you dislike your opponent; like the Democrats have been doing since Trump got elected. They care more about apperances than doing anything properly. The "Moderates" are the original Democrat base, and Progressives are alienating them to the point of of switching sides. It seems to me that people like you are so emotionally and ideologically involved and driven, you do not even realize you are fucking up your own party and everyone on the Right can see your weakness and lack of leadership.

Why don't you just chill out, before you kill yourself with stress. Nothing will happen, unless Coronavirus takes s serious turn. But we have 7 months for that to blow over.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

[MENTION=40267]ısoprene[/MENTION]

Do you realize how authoritarian and fear mongering you come off as?

A Republic is about working together, and coming to compromise that best suits everyone. Not just one political party. "Purging" and "thwarting" anything you deem inappropriate or dangerous is literally fascism. You are SUPPOSE to work with the other side, and come to AGREEMENTS. Not shoot down everything just because you dislike your opponent; like the Democrats have been doing since Trump got elected.

Why not? It works for Republicans. They've been doing that even before Mitch McConnell. Hell, how many people voted for Trump just because it "triggered" libs. No offense, but this appeal to the importance of the unity of the Republic (conveniently when your guy is in charge) is horseshit. I thought it was horseshit even when Obama was President. It's not the job or point of political parties to go along with everything the dude who holds the Presidency has.

 

[á´…eparted]

I'm sorry, but I can't do that. People who considered him "electable" should have thought about that. You're leaving the country anyway.

Oh that doesn't mean I am not going to vote still from abroad, and I'm not implying you should still knock on doors anyway. I would like you do, but if the person doing it doesn't believe in what they're doing they'l be ineffectual and the people they're talking to will notice so it wouldn't be right.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Oh that doesn't mean I am not going to vote still from abroad, and I'm not implying you should still knock on doors anyway. I would like you do, but if the person doing it doesn't believe in what they're doing they'l be ineffectual and the people they're talking to will notice so it wouldn't be right.

Yes, that was my experience in 2010, the last time I did this. For Joe Sleestak of all people.

 

[The Cat]