why was Vader obedient to Tarkin in Star Wars?

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Did the emperor tell him to obey Tarkin? Tarkin barks orders at Vader and doesn't seem one bit intimidated. Was Tarkin just stupid? Did the emperor purposefully keep his top guys a little distrustful of one another so they couldn't join together and topple him? Seems like some Michael Corleone level maneuvering and manipulation on the part of Palpy.

Based on Rogue One and A New Hope, it seems like Palpatine kept Vader on a pretty short leash until shit really got out of hand with the rebels. Like at most, he was given his own star destroyer and a private army of stormtroopers. My theory is that Vader was kept in the shadows and that most of his jobs prior to A New Hope had involved missions like hunting former Jedi, that sort of thing. Plus he probably had to spend a lot of time on lava world designing and building that sweet dream castle home.

Then after the Battle of Yavin Palpatine basically made Vader a Grand Admiral with his own fleet and super star destroyer at his disposal.


Another question, were Grand Admirals above or below Grand Moffs, or were they roughly equivalent in rank? Not sure if EU or other sources have ever clarified this. We see a guy at the Death Star conference meeting in a white uniform similar to what grand admirals wore, but I'm not sure what his rank or role there actually was. My assumption is that a Grand Moff was more like a military base commander, usually staying put in one place, while Grand Admirals tended to command mobile forces and move around more. But otherwise seems like they had pretty similar roles and positions in the hierarchy.

 

[The Cat]

Did the emperor tell him to obey Tarkin? Tarkin barks orders at Vader and doesn't seem one bit intimidated. Was Tarkin just stupid? Did the emperor purposefully keep his top guys a little distrustful of one another so they couldn't join together and topple him? Seems like some Michael Corleone level maneuvering and manipulation on the part of Palpy.

Based on Rogue One and A New Hope, it seems like Palpatine kept Vader on a pretty short leash until shit really got out of hand with the rebels. Like at most, he was given his own star destroyer and a private army of stormtroopers. My theory is that Vader was kept in the shadows and that most of his jobs prior to A New Hope had involved missions like hunting former Jedi, that sort of thing. Plus he probably had to spend a lot of time on lava world designing and building that sweet dream castle home.

Then after the Battle of Yavin Palpatine basically made Vader a Grand Admiral with his own fleet and super star destroyer at his disposal.


Another question, were Grand Admirals above or below Grand Moffs, or were they roughly equivalent in rank? Not sure if EU or other sources have ever clarified this. We see a guy at the Death Star conference meeting in a white uniform similar to what grand admirals wore, but I'm not sure what his rank or role there actually was. My assumption is that a Grand Moff was more like a military base commander, usually staying put in one place, while Grand Admirals tended to command mobile forces and move around more. But otherwise seems like they had pretty similar roles and positions in the hierarchy.

I think there was legitmate respect from Both Vader and Tarkin for one another. It always bothered me in the prequils that we didnt get to see a version of Tarkin pre his Imperial Governor role. Im betting there was at least once adventure Vader and Tarkin shared together.

A Moff is a regional Governor. A grand Admiral is an Admiral who controls more than one fleet.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I think there was legitmate respect from Both Vader and Tarkin for one another. It always bothered me in the prequils that we didnt get to see a version of Tarkin pre his Imperial Governor role. Im betting there was at least once adventure Vader and Tarkin shared together.

A Moff is a regional Governor. A grand Admiral is an Admiral who controls more than one fleet.

Given how intertwined the civilian government and military are in the empire, if Thrawn and Tarkin were in the same room, who would outrank who?

AND, could a grand admiral ever outrank Vader?

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

In the later years of the Roman Empire, there were often 2 emperors, one junior and one senior. I always thought junior emperor was basically the best analogue for exactly what Vader’s role was in the OT. Sometimes Roman emperors would even plot against one another, and we also see Vader was plotting to recruit Luke as his own “junior emperor” to help him overthrow Palpatine. Apparently overthrowing Palpatine was possibly on his mind as early as revenge of the sith

 

[The Cat]

Given how intertwined the civilian government and military are in the empire, if Thrawn and Tarkin were in the same room, who would outrank who?

AND, could a grand admiral ever outrank Vader?

Technically: It would depend on the Imperial Chain of Command. for instance in the irl military, the civilian president is the commander and chief and usually the secretaries of defense etc are senators. But not every senator is in the chain of command.

A Grand Admiral would likely Outrank a Moff just as a Moff would outrank a boilerplate Admiral.

An admirl might answer to a Moff in their region of space. but a Grand Admiral would answer directly to the Emperor. and likely rarely come into contact with a moff outside of official orders in which case the GA and the Moff would both be responding in kind to Imperial Orders. Which is a GA and Moff are involved comes directly from the top.

Vader holds no offical rank or title. Apart from another hand of the Emperor. Vader is the public face of the Force. The only remnant of the Jedi that Palpy actually wants the people to see. He's a figure head. A special offic appointed by the president. so to speak

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In the later years of the Roman Empire, there were often 2 emperors, one junior and one senior. I always thought junior emperor was basically the best analogue for exactly what Vader’s role was in the OT. Sometimes Roman emperors would even plot against one another, and we also see Vader was plotting to recruit Luke as his own “junior emperor” to help him overthrow Palpatine. Apparently overthrowing Palpatine was possibly on his mind as early as revenge of the sith

There are always two hands for an emperor and a king. One is the strong right hand of the military. The other is the sinister left hand of assassins and spies.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

There are always two hands for an emperor and a king. One is the strong right hand of the military. The other is the sinister left hand of assassins and spies.

Correct. But given how Vader seemed to function as a little bit of both, that makes him a special case.

 

[The Cat]

Correct. But given how Vader seemed to function as a little bit of both, that makes him a special case.

I would say it makes him the Left Hand. Basically The Spymaster for The Empire. Which imo would have made more sense for all the "secret apprentices" are just appropriate for the office agents. Much as the Emperor has his elite red guards. Which would also account for the antagonistic raltationship Vader had with Mara Jade and Prince Xizor. Mara JAde would technically fall under Vader's jurisdiction as Spymaster, however, she like Vader and Xizor answered only to the Emperor. Which made them rogue elements that should by virtue of being spymaster general should fall under Vader's jurisdiction as opposed to on seperate but equal footing from him. Which I suspect was rather Palpatine's design to keep his WMD in line. I have two other people who can do your job if you get any ideas above your station. Which again I think goes a long way for why Vader doesnt hold an officla rank or title in the Empire. the only way he could seize power is through a coup. There is no line of succession for him otherwise. Grand Admiral Thrawn in fact would have been the main condender of Coruscant for figurehead. But as the xwing seires illustrated, the Empire functioned quite well for a while without the Emperor. point of fact the Imperial Remnant speculated that if Thrawn had been in charge over the Emperor the Empire would never have fallen in the first place. (Which imo is true.) Thrawn was The Julius Caeser of his time. If it werent Star Wars and "the bad guys have to lose somehow" I in truth dont think he would have been defeated in the Hear to the Empire series.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

point of fact the Imperial Remnant speculated that if Thrawn had been in charge over the Emperor the Empire would never have fallen in the first place. (Which imo is true.) Thrawn was The Julius Caeser of his time. If it werent Star Wars and "the bad guys have to lose somehow" I in truth dont think he would have been defeated in the Hear to the Empire series.

kind of an analog to Nazi Germany. A lot of Hitler's generals held similar sentiments. Some wanted Rommel to lead in the event of a successful coup. I think Hitler's military decisions frustrated a lot of his generals particularly toward the end. Like, who is this failed anti-Semitic artist parading around in a uniform like he thinks he understands how military tactics work?

 

[The Cat]

Operatives and spies often travel on military vessels. Given that we first encounter Vader retriving stolen top secret plans this makes sense. Empire strikes back there was so much more imperial artillery because it was meant to show literally "The Empire: Striking back." As much as they could show it and still have the family friendly toy sale that the franchise was clearly becoming at this point. Because let's be clear. You want to show the EMPIRE striking back. You need more napalm and ground assaults. because it's the whole. You take out our planet killing weapon, we'll bombard three of your planets from orbit just for harboring a rebel. and there is only ever impied genocide in star wars. which is why we dont get a typical tuesday morning on Alderaan shot with a hey what's that moon shadow over the sun. I dont recall there being an eclipse... what a pretty green light-- moment. No we just see the sterile from space planet go boom. but that would just bum people out

I dunno. I guess in this age of unasked for gritty reboots. Im asking for a gritty star wars reboot. Just Grimdark Star Wars.

 

[The Cat]

kind of an analog to Nazi Germany. A lot of Hitler's generals held similar sentiments. Some wanted Rommel to lead in the event of a successful coup. I think Hitler's military decisions frustrated a lot of his generals particularly toward the end. Like, who is this failed anti-Semitic artist parading around in a uniform like he thinks he understands how military tactics work?

It's kinda why I think there was something to the occult aspects of WWII because yeah. Something supernaturally horrible was going on behind the scenes there.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Operatives and spies often travel on military vessels. Given that we first encounter Vader retriving stolen top secret plans this makes sense. Empire strikes back there was so much more imperial artillery because it was meant to show literally "The Empire: Striking back." As much as they could show it and still have the family friendly toy sale that the franchise was clearly becoming at this point. Because let's be clear. You want to show the EMPIRE striking back. You need more napalm and ground assaults. because it's the whole. You take out our planet killing weapon, we'll bombard three of your planets from orbit just for harboring a rebel. and there is only ever impied genocide in star wars. which is why we dont get a typical tuesday morning on Alderaan shot with a hey what's that moon shadow over the sun. I dont recall there being an eclipse... what a pretty green light-- moment. No we just see the sterile from space planet go boom. but that would just bum people out

I dunno. I guess in this age of unasked for gritty reboots. Im asking for a gritty star wars reboot. Just Grimdark Star Wars.

Yeah, I wanna see Jimmy Smitts screaming in terror as he sees the green light. I also thought Leia's reaction to the destruction was remarkably subdued and "meh", then a few hours later she's swinging across giant chasms in the death star with Luke like she's having a good time. Also, what's with Luke's cool gadget belt? I want more of that. that's like some Batman or James Bond sort of tech he's carrying.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

It's kinda why I think there was something to the occult aspects of WWII because yeah. Something supernaturally horrible was going on behind the scenes there.

Luckily that meddling archeologist was always around to foil their supernatural plans.

 

[The Cat]

Yeah, I wanna see Jimmy Smitts screaming in terror as he sees the green light. I also thought Leia's reaction to the destruction was remarkably subdued and "meh", then a few hours later she's swinging across giant chasms in the death star with Luke like she's having a good time. Also, what's with Luke's cool gadget belt? I want more of that. that's like some Batman or James Bond sort of tech he's carrying.

Stormtrooper belt.

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Luckily that meddling archeologist was always around to foil their supernatural plans.

And like the entire DC universe

 

[The Cat]

.....and another thing @_@

Vader is very VERY subdued for a Sith. the whole murder of the younglings things is so out of character. It was just lazy writing for shock value.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Stormtrooper belt.

I wonder what other sort of cool gadgets they got to carry. Too bad we don't really see troopers using their belts in the movies.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

.....and another thing @_@

Vader is very VERY subdued for a Sith. the whole murder of the younglings things is so out of character. It was just lazy writing for shock value.

I just had a hard time believeing his turn happened so quick, to the point he was ready and willing to chop the younglings up just like that, like a few hours after pledging himself to Palpatine. I feel like he would've really struggled more with this and maybe even found a way to protect them, like he did with the child Starkiller in The Force Unleashed game. If nothing else, they could have been taken and trained to become future inquisitors or something. The Emperor had use for force sensitives other than Anakin. Palpatine's attitudes toward non-sith force users in the prequels seems inconsistent with his later plans, when he's got several force sensitive darksiders working for him under Vader. Plus, I know he'd want some darksiders on reserve in the event Vader died or went rogue. Pretty sure one of the inquisitors would've taken vader's place if the emperor needed a new apprentice.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I wonder what other sort of cool gadgets they got to carry. Too bad we don't really see troopers using their belts in the movies.

Actually, we see clone troopers (if that counts) using the grappling hooks in Episode III on Utapau.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I think there was legitmate respect from Both Vader and Tarkin for one another. It always bothered me in the prequils that we didnt get to see a version of Tarkin pre his Imperial Governor role. Im betting there was at least once adventure Vader and Tarkin shared together.

A Moff is a regional Governor. A grand Admiral is an Admiral who controls more than one fleet.

In the Clone Wars, they're on a mission together, and Anakin states that he agrees with his proto-Imperial views. It's established that the knew and respected each other before he even became Vader.

kind of an analog to Nazi Germany. A lot of Hitler's generals held similar sentiments. Some wanted Rommel to lead in the event of a successful coup. I think Hitler's military decisions frustrated a lot of his generals particularly toward the end. Like, who is this failed anti-Semitic artist parading around in a uniform like he thinks he understands how military tactics work?

I watched The Longest Day, about Normandy, and there's a bit (which probably actually happened) where some of the German commanders understand what's about to happen and want to get some tanks. Problem is, they can't get those tanks because the available units can only be sent by the Fuhrer, who is currently sleeping and would raise a temper tantrum if he was disturbed.

 

[The Cat]

I just had a hard time believeing his turn happened so quick, to the point he was ready and willing to chop the younglings up just like that, like a few hours after pledging himself to Palpatine. I feel like he would've really struggled more with this and maybe even found a way to protect them, like he did with the child Starkiller in The Force Unleashed game. If nothing else, they could have been taken and trained to become future inquisitors or something. The Emperor had use for force sensitives other than Anakin. Palpatine's attitudes toward non-sith force users in the prequels seems inconsistent with his later plans, when he's got several force sensitive darksiders working for him under Vader. Plus, I know he'd want some darksiders on reserve in the event Vader died or went rogue. Pretty sure one of the inquisitors would've taken vader's place if the emperor needed a new apprentice.

The wholeinclusion of younglings in the first place makes the jedi order inherently sinister. I refuse to believe that parents across the galaxy are just like here take my magic mojo baby for your cult.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

In the Clone Wars, they're on a mission together, and Anakin states that he agrees with his proto-Imperial views. It's established that the knew and respected each other before he even became Vader.



.

Anakin expressing his fascist views even back then. What an alt right incel. I honestly don't understand what Padme saw in him, based on how he's portrayed.