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Random Politics Thread

Red Herring

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The whole idea of deserving and undeserving poor stretches back to the poor laws before the foundation of the welfare state in the UK, the boards of guardians in the old parish system used to determine who was deserving and undeserving and even those deserving of "poor relief" could expect a pretty punitive version of welfare, ie spend time on a treadmill, unpicking massive pieces of rope only to reassemble them, given a box much like a coffin to sleep in which was deliberately too narrow or too short, often both, so as to prevent their taking up the relief of poverty for very long in any case.

A lot of it was in reaction to the Speelhamland system, which was a kind of universal benefit, which early propagandists suggested just made its recipients idlers and rioters who spent time drinking gin all day and ate their children and all sorts of BS.

Its a idea I despise, along with "less eligibility", "the poor are too many", "perishers" and "vagrancy", the immigration of its day (across parish boundaries) all those mindsets allowed the Irish famine to happen and fostered absentee land lordism, in time they translated into the later "useless eaters" idea that the Nazis used to popularize euthanasia, abortion, eventually genocide. I think every few years it gets revived or reborn, the so called "welfare queen" idea or the "breeders" idea are versions of it.

Small correction: The nazis were not pro-abortion. In fact one of the first laws they passed after coming to power concerned harder sactions for women who aborted. It had always been illegal but the left (social democrats, communists, etc) had repeatedly petitioned to legalize abortion or at least soften the sactions. The nazis were severely anti-abortion and hardened sactions. Their law against advertising abortion services (or simply informing about them in any that could be read as advertising) is still in the books to this day.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Well, by Euro standards you never really had a left wing president. What is American left is generally centrism in Europe.

But to be honest you also don't really have nationalists and right-winger that aren't too much into "capitalism". What means that drawing simplistic lines across the Atlantic can be bad idea for understanding the situation.



Locally I am just watching very heavy escalation between nationalism and what is basically "neoliberal conservatism with elements of local culture". Therefore the whole right is cracking because too many goods, customs and standards are being imported .... what isn't really conservative or survival based doctrine. Therefore the more globalist/capitalist right is in complete shock over what is going on currently, since half of their base is starting a new party/block. What means that my far right that is based on Catholic church and local culture or history is less into market than US centrists. What in the end means that we are mixing apples and oranges, because the cultural interpretation of left/right is completely different.

By Euro standards of the 18th century, some of our founders were radical leftists compared to 18th century euro heads of state.
 

Vendrah

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In a way for this it would perhaps be the best to make MBTI-like structure.


First letter: nationalist vs. globalist
Second letter: capitalist vs. socialist
Third letter: conservative vs. progressive
Forth letter: order vs chaos

We need a number of axis to really explain and define certain political groups.

I got 3 Xs on your test, xxPx although Im slightly more globalist than nationalist (actually given that I dont like my country much since its snakes has been showing up a lot recently, Im kind of more G).
But this is way still better than just left VS right. I like your idea.
 

Virtual ghost

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By Euro standards of the 18th century, some of our founders were radical leftists compared to 18th century euro heads of state.


I know. However here 18th century doesn't really count for anything. Wars and dictatorships wiped out that continuity.
But I would say that very progressive is more correct for this case than being very left.



I got 3 Xs on your test, xxPx although Im slightly more globalist than nationalist (actually given that I dont like my country much since its snakes has been showing up a lot recently, Im kind of more G).
But this is way still better than just left VS right. I like your idea.


I perfectly understand. My first two letters are also questionable and depend on definitions and circumstances. I am also leaning towards G in ideal circumstances but the world isn't ideal place and you need to protect yourself from time to time. Plus if you would treat EU as a country that would push me away from being G. By American standards I am S but by my local standards I am C, while the last two letters are clearly PO.


So in the end: gcPO.
I would dare to say O is my strongest letter and therefore it can override everything else based on the circumstances.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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I’m like 80% Globalist, 60% Capitalist, 65% Progressive, 55% Chaos
 

SearchingforPeace

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perhaps defining the terms would be good.

also, probably need to add: technocracy vs. democracy.

For example, Bernie is much more for democracy than technocracy, while Warren is for technocracy over democracy. Bernie believes in the people and freeing them from oligarchs while Warren seems to just want to manage the oligarchy using "the elites"
 

Doctor Cringelord

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perhaps defining the terms would be good.

also, probably need to add: technocracy vs. democracy.

For example, Bernie is much more for democracy than technocracy, while Warren is for technocracy over democracy. Bernie believes in the people and freeing them from oligarchs while Warren seems to just want to manage the oligarchy using "the elites"

while the idea of technocracy is a bit scary, I'm not sure it would be much worse than what our current democracy looks like.

anyway, non sequitur: I liked Warren a lot better before everyone wanted her to run for president. I think it's gone to her head a lot. I preferred when she was just a curmudgeon fighting for banking reform. All the wokahontas crap turned me off

- - - Updated - - -

I assumed the conservative v progressive dichotomy was measuring one's take on cultural issues.

- - - Updated - - -

I would say add one for authoritarian vs libertarian, but I suppose the order vs chaos dichotomy is synonymous?
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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In a way for this it would perhaps be the best to make MBTI-like structure.


First letter: nationalist vs. globalist
Second letter: capitalist vs. socialist.
Third letter: conservative vs. progressive
Forth letter: order vs chaos

We need a number of axis to really explain and define certain political groups.

GSPO

Probably 80% Globalist, 55% Socialist, 70% Progressive, 55% Order

I've spent time with anarchist groups.... I don't really see that working. Leaders help things get done. Structure and rules can have their purpose with even small groups.
 

Virtual ghost

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Ok, this was the idea:


Globalist vs. nationalist - is basically local vs. global. In other words how much do you care about global events, international law and to which degree you think that you have the right to reject global trends or protect yourself from global trends.


Capitalist vs. Socialist is basically how much is the government or money good decision maker. In other words to a stereotypical capitalist it doesn't occur that a decision that would make them more money would not be a good one for them or people around them. Their mindset is fundamentally "transactional".


Conservative vs. Progressive is how you generally approach social issues.


Order vs. Chaos is exactly that: structured vs. unstructured. How both will be maintained or achieved is basically irrelevant.



Logic behind this was somewhat culturally biased on my part while adding some other axis could work, but I didn't want to complicate too much . Plus each axis should perhaps have five zones: mild and strong preference on both sides and "relative balance" in the middle.

Also my culture doesn't recognize term "libertarian" and I never even heard of it until I came here. The closest is "free spirit person" but that isn't really politically specific term. In a way libertarian vs. authoritarian elements can be found in all 4 scales.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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"I'm anti-war."
Troll: "So you think we should bomb France, then?"

That's not what I did. Your ideology implies that anyone who is not rich is a loser, and so it sounds like you would prefer that to what you call "using the wealthy as a scapegoat". I think though, that to be a scapegoat, you have to not actually be responsible for things. Seems a bit of a stretch to say people with a lot of power and influence aren't responsible for anything.
 

Jaguar

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That's not what I did.

giphy.gif
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Ok, this was the idea:


Globalist vs. nationalist - is basically local vs. global. In other words how much do you care about global events, international law and to which degree you think that you have the right to reject global trends or protect yourself from global trends.


Capitalist vs. Socialist is basically how much is the government or money good decision maker. In other words to a stereotypical capitalist it doesn't occur that a decision that would make them more money would not be a good one for them or people around them. Their mindset is fundamentally "transactional".


Conservative vs. Progressive is how you generally approach social issues.


Order vs. Chaos is exactly that: structured vs. unstructured. How both will be maintained or achieved is basically irrelevant.



Logic behind this was somewhat culturally biased on my part while adding some other axis could work, but I didn't want to complicate too much . Plus each axis should perhaps have five zones: mild and strong preference on both sides and "relative balance" in the middle.

Also my culture doesn't recognize term "libertarian" and I never even heard of it until I came here. The closest is "free spirit person" but that isn't really politically specific term. In a way libertarian vs. authoritarian elements can be found in all 4 scales.
In that case,

about 50/50 split globalist/nationalist

about 55 capitalist Generally I'm for a free market, but there are certain realms such as healthcare that should not be left to the market and should instead be socialized with heavy oversight from the government. Certain industries should be regulated, particularly the food, energy and drug industries--history has shown that actors in those markets cannot be trusted to act in consumers' best interests. I also think there's local monopolies and duopolies providing internet service that need to be broken up or curtailed. The internet is basically a necessity (you can't even apply for a lot of jobs now without a decent internet connection), and should be treated as a utility service and made more affordable.

maybe 60 percent progressive. This is a tough one for me. I'm pro choice, pro gay marriage, and generally adhere to a live and let live philosophy, but on the other hand I agree with social conservatives on certain points such as the belief that children are better off raised in a 2 parent home (however, I don't care if the parents are both the same sex, although I do think children do better in school and extracurricular activities if they at least have adult mentors/role models of both sexes operating in some sphere of their lives) due to a correlation between single parent homes and incarceration. The sexual revolution was an incomplete one and needs to be finalized. What we had basically only liberated half of the human race in the west and benefitted only the prime males (the 8s, 9s and 10s) and has led to the growth of movements such as the incels.

about 50/50 order/chaos, but I really need to think about this one some more.
 

Virtual ghost

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It is hard to measure politics in concrete fashion so my idea shouldn't be taken in too strict way. Just as MBTI, this is approximation.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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In that case,

about 50/50 split globalist/nationalist

about 55 capitalist Generally I'm for a free market, but there are certain realms such as healthcare that should not be left to the market and should instead be socialized with heavy oversight from the government. Certain industries should be regulated, particularly the food, energy and drug industries--history has shown that actors in those markets cannot be trusted to act in consumers' best interests. I also think there's local monopolies and duopolies providing internet service that need to be broken up or curtailed. The internet is basically a necessity (you can't even apply for a lot of jobs now without a decent internet connection), and should be treated as a utility service and made more affordable.

maybe 60 percent progressive. This is a tough one for me. I'm pro choice, pro gay marriage, and generally adhere to a live and let live philosophy, but on the other hand I agree with social conservatives on certain points such as the belief that children are better off raised in a 2 parent home (however, I don't care if the parents are both the same sex, although I do think children do better in school and extracurricular activities if they at least have adult mentors/role models of both sexes operating in some sphere of their lives) due to a correlation between single parent homes and incarceration. The sexual revolution was an incomplete one and needs to be finalized. What we had basically only liberated half of the human race in the west and benefitted only the prime males (the 8s, 9s and 10s) and has led to the growth of movements such as the incels.

I honestly think we need courtship/dating/hook-up rituals of some sort. In that respect, I might be considered conservative. We don't really seem capable as a society (or maybe as a species) of dealing with this stuff in the absence of any kind of structure. The result seems to be increasing hostility between the sexes, and this is partially because everyone is making up this shit as they go along which might not always agree with the shit other people are making up. Everyone is speaking their own individual language and we expect that to be a workable system, somehow?

Lots of societies have rituals for this, so it's something people in at least some places decided there was a need for. Of course, the range of behavior permitted within the societies was pretty limited, but there's no reason why we can't have rituals that account for individual differences and preferences. Like... the hanky code that's supposed to be a thing in the LGBT scene (although, it might just be a myth).

Also regarding progressive/conservative, I don't see religion as universally a bad thing and sometimes I think it even has its place. Is it really that much better for people to be "cancel culture crusaders" on Twitter than people who pester you in public places about finding Jesus? Maybe to a certain extent, it would even be better for people to be dogmatic about something nebulous and intangible as metaphysics than engage in circular firing squad nonsense about the way people live their lives on social media.

Regarding socialism, I don't want the government completely controlling the economy, but it is hard for the argument that they can handle things on their own to be convincing when they fuck up and then ask for trillions of dollars in taxpayer money. To me it seems like big business, by and large, wants power and influence but doesn't want the responsibility that comes with power and influence. That means something else needs to hold it in check. I see it as being similar to the concept of having three separate and independent branches of government. If it's such a wise idea in government, why is it such a bad idea for business to operate according to a similar framework. I'm not even for getting rid of billionaires or income caps, but I think money has tainted politics through a system of legalized bribery and something ought to be done about that.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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It is hard to measure politics in concrete fashion so my idea shouldn't be taken in too strict way. Just as MBTI, this is approximation.

I actually think it does a good job at capturing a lot of important distinctions.

It's certainly better than the feeble mainstream American liberal/conservative framework.
 

Red Herring

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I honestly think we need courtship/dating/hook-up rituals of some sort. In that respect, I might be considered conservative. We don't really seem capable as a society (or maybe as a species) of dealing with this stuff in the absence of any kind of structure. The result seems to be increasing hostility between the sexes, and this is partially because everyone is making up this shit as they go along which might not always agree with the shit other people are making up. Everyone is speaking their own individual language and we expect that to be a workable system, somehow?

Lots of societies have rituals for this, so it's something people in at least some places decided there was a need for. Of course, the range of behavior permitted within the societies was pretty limited, but there's no reason why we can't have rituals that account for individual differences and preferences. Like... the hanky code that's supposed to be a thing in the LGBT scene (although, it might just be a myth).

Also regarding progressive/conservative, I don't see religion as universally a bad thing and sometimes I think it even has its place. Is it really that much better for people to be "cancel culture crusaders" on Twitter than people who pester you in public places about finding Jesus? Maybe to a certain extent, it would even be better for people to be dogmatic about something nebulous and intangible as metaphysics than engage in circular firing squad nonsense about the way people live their lives on social media.

Regarding socialism, I don't want the government completely controlling the economy, but it is hard for the argument that they can handle things on their own to be convincing when they fuck up and then ask for trillions of dollars in taxpayer money. To me it seems like big business, by and large, wants power and influence but doesn't want the responsibility that comes with power and influence. That means something else needs to hold it in check. I see it as being similar to the concept of having three separate and independent branches of government. If it's such a wise idea in government, why is it such a bad idea for business to operate according to a similar framework. I'm not even for getting rid of billionaires or income caps, but I think money has tainted politics through a system of legalized bribery and something ought to be done about that.

Interesting you should say that as I was under the impression that dating is much more ritualized in the US than in Europe.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Interesting you should say that as I was under the impression that dating is much more ritualized in the US than in Europe.

Really? Maybe the only thing close to a ritual that exists is getting more serious after 3 dates, but a lot of people don't even follow that.
 

Red Herring

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Really? Maybe the only thing close to a ritual that exists is getting more serious after 3 dates, but a lot of people don't even follow that.

Who is asking whom out? Where do you go? Who picks up whom or do you meet at the place? When do you meet at someones place? What do you do (dinner, movie, etc)? What do you and don't you talk about? What about a goodbye kiss? Coming upstairs for "coffee"? How long do you wait before you call them back and meet again? How long until first kiss? First sex? When are you exclusive? First time meeting friends /family? Moving in?
Americans seem to have unwritten rules for all of that.
 
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