[Traditional Enneagram] Reactivity in the Reactive Triad

[Earl Grey]

Brilliantly summarized.
4s - introjection - blame self
6s - projection - blame others
8s - denial - bulldoze

6 and 8 can look very similar on the surface when going into external-blaming or bulldozing mode. 6 still is a head type and a superego + attachment to boot, so to a degree is still more focused on problems, while I have observed 8s actually potentially become more careless (especially if w9)- their problems aren't as security or systematic, problem-oriented as 6s are (especially if not sp-first), but a more personal deep-seated fear of being controlled. I have seen 8s being 'overly selfish' just to feed back to their own ego and illusions of superiority, while 6s are easier to work with and to sit down to fix problems with.

While I'm at it, I want to clear up some of the bad rep 6s have. They can be very sensible and level-headed folk. A lot of descriptions there depicting 6 unfairly, as if they were constantly at low health levels. There is also a mistake of thinking anxiety = nervous panic. This is not true. 6s are excellent at troubleshooting and their skill is premediation, precisely because they can be so careful to make sure things are going smoothly to ensure security. It can seem like being a pure ball of fear and anxiety. They still are a head type. They can very well be extremely intelligent. More than 5s, I have found them extremely capable of problem-solving very practical matters and generally getting in control of a situation (or getting a situation under control).


But yes, as a reactive type, if you try constantly demean their contributions or not validating their fears, they may become erratic. This goes both ways; the external being able to see and appreciate 6s and their gifts and contributions (6 is an attachment + reactive type after all), giving them a sense of belonging, as well as the 6s themselves being able to more maturely assess if something is actually worth freaking out about and do a more accurate risk-assessment- a 1% chance of failure is not as doomsday-inducing as 30% or 100%- this is why they integrate to 9- that is where they learn to take things in stride more and let life flow. 6s are those people bringing out their med kits and guns if the apocalypse strikes- who's laughing now?

 

[Yuurei]

“ bulldoze”. Ugh. I hate my type.

 

[Luminous]

“ bulldoze”. Ugh. I hate my type.

Wait... now you sound like a 4! hehe

 

[Yuurei]

Wait... now you sound like a 4! hehe

Ix has said he thinks it’s in my tri-type and he seems quite knowledgeable.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Ix has said he thinks it’s in my tri-type and he seems quite knowledgeable.

Perhaps, but if I am not mistaken you already have two darkside types, 8 and 5. In other words I think that triple darkside could be too "radical" explanation for you.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I know, however I was looking for more detailed personal opinions. Theory is one thing while practice and concrete/specific data is another.

I didn't ask this randomly. The problem is that for me all of this is a very messy issue. For example it says that 8s don't want to be controlled but I am from pretty collectivistic big government place where plenty of things are quite "pre-determined". Therefore here you can't really develop yourself into the most stereotypical 8. However I am pretty sure we have 8s, that are simply defined somewhat differently since they know how things work and what they can get. What makes the 6/8 difference really really muddy, especially since thinking triad is quite valued. What is exactly what made me think am I really 5w6 or I am 1w9 or 3w4 that plays the intellectual ideal card, even if I for years I was pretty sure about the core motivation. However once you calculate in the culture, circumstances and camouflage the enneagram quickly becomes messy issue. On the other hand if I have 1w9 fix there are also problems since here morals and religion are set up differently in their goals. Plus I don't think we have a single televangelist in this country and religion is in a way just a extension of the state.


What in the end is the puzzle that has no concrete objective answer and therefore I just decided to leave it at current typing. Overthinking this is pointless, especially since I got it generally right.

 

[Earl Grey]

I didn't ask this randomly. The problem is that for me all of this is a very messy issue. For example it says that 8s don't want to be controlled but I am from pretty collectivistic big government place where plenty of things are quite "pre-determined". Therefore here you can't really develop yourself into the most stereotypical 8. However I am pretty sure we have 8s, that are simply defined somewhat differently since they know how things work and what they can get. What makes the 6/8 difference really really muddy, especially since thinking triad is quite valued. What is exactly what made me think am I really 5w6 or I am 1w9 or 3w4 that plays the intellectual ideal card, even if I for years I was pretty sure about the core motivation. However once you calculate in the culture, circumstances and camouflage the enneagram quickly becomes messy issue. On the other hand if I have 1w9 fix there are also problems since here morals and religion are set up differently in their goals. Plus I don't think we have a single televangelist in this country and religion is in a way just a extension of the state.

Well, then it pertains to you personally and would warrant a closer look and perhaps a more focused type me thread or a type me session for that. This thread is about reactivity in general and people's experiences with it, and you seem to be looking for a more generalized understanding on type 8. The dimension of control has to do more with 8's core motivation and the ID/Aggressive triad in general, not Reactive Triad.

If you want to explain why you type yourself as a reactive or with reactive influence and your experiences with it, you are welcome, and it could help tie into typing yourself. However, I doubt you would get an in-depth explanation more than what the basics of what books and online resources already provide due to the nature of the topic. You might want to narrow down what you are looking for exactly, with more questions. Even so, the thread topic is about Reactivity, and it is simply one dimension of type 8. If you want something more generalized, you may not find it here.

If it helps, it is more the internal motivations than outward traits, so it matters a little lesser if you are behaving like a 'stereotypical 8' or not- 2 people of the same type may not even look the same. Personal anecdotes are highly situational and laden with descriptions of behaviours and traits- they may not resonate with you or help you at all if you have not gotten the opportunity to be a 'stereotypical 8'. If you want my two cents: not necessarily as core, you seem more compliant (1 or 6) and/or attachment (3 or 6). Even this paragraph of yours oozes attachment triad with some compliance thrown in. That is all I can say.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Well, then it pertains to you personally and would warrant a closer look and perhaps a more focused type me thread or a type me session for that. This thread is about reactivity in general and people's experiences with it, and you seem to be looking for a more generalized understanding on type 8. The dimension of control has to do more with 8's core motivation and the ID/Aggressive triad in general, not Reactive Triad.

If you want to explain why you type yourself as a reactive or with reactive influence and your experiences with it, you are welcome, and it could help tie into typing yourself. However, I doubt you would get an in-depth explanation more than what the basics of what books and online resources already provide due to the nature of the topic. You might want to narrow down what you are looking for exactly, with more questions. Even so, the thread topic is about Reactivity, and it is simply one dimension of type 8. If you want something more generalized, you may not find it here.

If it helps, it is more the internal motivations than outward traits, so it matters a little lesser if you are behaving like a 'stereotypical 8' or not- 2 people of the same type may not even look the same. Personal anecdotes are highly situational and laden with descriptions of behaviours and traits- they may not resonate with you or help you at all if you have not gotten the opportunity to be a 'stereotypical 8'. If you want my two cents: not necessarily as core, you seem more compliant (1 or 6) and/or attachment (3 or 6). Even this paragraph of yours oozes attachment triad with some compliance thrown in. That is all I can say.

Well, the point of that post was simply that in my experience separating 6 and 8 is a messy issue due to culture, the factor that shouldn't be overlooked. What means that is it a w6 or 8 fix is mostly just subjective, since here clearly separating the two is really hard. What is my type is irrelevant here since this is question of general principle. What happens if 8 can't be an 8 fully ? They will have to find another ways to cope with reality/reactivity.

 

[cascadeco]

Well, the point of that post was simply that in my experience separating 6 and 8 is a messy issue due to culture, the factor that shouldn't be overlooked. What means that is it a w6 or 8 fix is mostly just subjective, since here clearly separating the two is really hard. What is my type is irrelevant here since this is question of general principle. What happens if 8 can't be an 8 fully ? They will have to find another ways to cope with reality/reactivity.

I hear what you're saying; I would think any 'natural' proclivities in this case would become visible within the persons' private/home life? These things would be enacted in their personal relationships, dynamics or typical 'roles' with their spouse or boyfriend/girlfriend or friends, and so on, even if it's muffled on a larger scale out in public or with their careers.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I hear what you're saying; I would think any 'natural' proclivities in this case would become visible within the persons' private/home life? These things would be enacted in their personal relationships, dynamics with their spouse or boyfriend/girlfriend, and so on, even if it's muffled on a larger scale out in public or with their careers.

True, however clearly separating job and private affairs isn't easy. Why push or independence when it is possible to ask government to repair your roof ? Or if you can get master degree for 0$ in direct payment. To be honest I never liked the symmetry of enneagram arrows, to me it is more logical that 8 desintegretes to 6 than to 5. Although that is probably true for most people.


However I will retreat from this thread, I am killing the basic idea behind it.

 

[Mind Maverick]

I'm definitely not a reactive core. Most outbursts seem dramatic or petty from my point of view. I don't understand it when someone yells at their video game, or their PC for not working, etc. I typically dislike strong expressions of emotions, yelling, etc. and distance myself from those prone to them. I prefer talking calmly, having rational discussion, or taking sensible / level-headed approaches while remaining emotionally controlled. In fact, when emotions are too in the mix I tend to see it as a bias and take a step back and wait until the emotions subside to confront things.

I think @Yuu 's argument has a limited perspective though (no offense, not attacking you, just pointing out an issue I see within the statements made). "It's better than holding onto it!" Anything can be said to be better than virtually any 2-part comparison, but more than 2 options exist. I don't have those outbursts and I also don't hold onto things for any length of time. That's because I don't need a release to move on. Not having outbursts doesn't mean I hold grudges, etc. Yuu's way isn't inferior perhaps, but it's also not superior...not that superiority was ever claimed.

Ty btw, it's nice to read about the positives behind methods so different than my own so that I can develop a sense of understanding.

 

[Kanra Jest]

I use to have outbursts all the time cuz I got screamed at growing up all the time. Abuse.

I'm alot more chill now that things have quieted down. A little impulsive with anger but it's extremely brief and I'm back to a neutral state. Most likely if I'm ever reactive it's because of defending myself from their intense angry energy towards me which makes me overwhelmed and idk how to cope with it. I'm HSP. Or there's too many obstacles in my way of my vision/visions I want to manifest and it annoys me that I can't have my way.

I'm sure it sounds immature but I wasn't exposed to good environment to develop my emotions nor did I have a mother for emotional support. Likely making me a bit warped.

But other than those I'm chill. My "reactivity" is defensiveness, or competitiveness and sometimes perfectionism. I have to look good. I detest someone doing alot better than me at something. As it makes me look bad.

I do seem reactive, but very brief. Yet I'm not so sure I have a reactive type because it doesn't fully fit really. Something is always off and different. And outside of those scenario's I'm remarkably unemotional generally.

 

[Coriolis]

You are very much correct. Being 'reactive' in the mundane sense is =/= Enneagram 'Reactivity', though both often correlate and come hand in hand. In Enneagram, being Reactive triad simply means looking for validation (in a sense) that a problem is real- either to validate their own experiences, meaning, and feelings (E4), their own safety, stability, security, and network with others (E6), or to be tough, 'real', have a grip on reality so you can deal with it (E8).


E4 being also a Withdrawn and Heart triad whose defense mechanism is introjection , it intensifies their emotions- because that is their bias. Seeking meaning, through emotions. So if they don't get it, they try get it in the way they have been doing it to make it 'more real' to themselves- intensifying their emotional experiences, not letting it go.

In contrast, E6 is a bit of a pingpong, it bounces back and forth- its concerns are not the same as the E4- their concerns as to do with more practical matters of stability and security (and E4 in contrast may seem too 'in-their-head'). Their concerns have to do with the feeling of fear and uncertainty itself- both in online accounts and irl friends, I have observed that the more uncertain they are (of the future, of whatever they are afraid about), the more they 'act out' (aggressively- CP 6, or passive-aggressively- Phobic 6) in some attempt to get things done. 'Things are going wrong, I seem to be the only one to care!' Kind of like the person who throws a fit while doing things because they are just SO FRUSTRATED! It can be confused with the E4 in a way because of the focus on fear and validation and feelings due to them being an Attachment triad (their sense of self is to a degree molded by what they do, and their surroundings), but it is not concerned with identity or personal meaning the way E4 is. In fact, it may be too ignoring of it in order to keep the status quo (think of its fellow Attachment Triad cousin, the E9. But instead of peace, it's more of a Compliant Triad & stability concern). In contrast, E4 might be biased towards listening to itself too much (Withdrawn Triad tendencies) and not much of others or their obligations.

How do you think these influences would manifest for someone like me with both 4 and 6 but neither as core? I am fairly sure I am 5w6, tritype 514.

 

[Earl Grey]

How do you think these influences would manifest for someone like me with both 4 and 6 but neither as core? I am fairly sure I am 5w6, tritype 514.

The core motivation would still be #1 as usual, and the type itself takes precedence over its wing.

AS A WING TO E5 CORE

For 5, that would be being more 'externally engaging' in the sense of that premeditation I mentioned- less concerned with just sitting and thinking and reflecting, more to being able to tackle the problems they perceive. A 6 might manifest some emotional reactivity with that, but 5 being a withdrawn, competency type would not.

I don't type as w6 so I can't really speak for it neither do I know any 5w6s irl sadly, but my guess is that just like how the w4 feeds into iconoclastic, reflective, self-centering, more 'emotional' tendencies, the w6 would add a degree of anxiety to the 5 (being both head types- double fear triad) which the 5 then deals with, in its own way and own mechanisms- a competency one, not a reactive one (but still being anxiety based and reminiscent of E6 fears). This 5 is more future and stability-oriented than their w4 cousin, taking more concrete steps to mitigating their fear of lack of competency in knowledge, or being deficient in resources. Under stress, the 6's characteristic 'reactivity' is instead replaced with 5's defense mechanisms- over-hoarding, over-withholding, over-planning but no steps being taken.

4 IN THE TRITYPE

To note that 4s' reactivity is actually an internal one. The 4 can externally lash back out if they want- but are not as externally driven like the 6 and 8. Their defense mechanism is introjection and they are also a withdrawn type, so instead of using their surroundings for validation (attachment triad E6) or controlling it (aggressive triad E8), they introject flaws and tend to be more reflective and self-referential, their bias is in looking at all their negatives and not measuring them up with the external, separating them from the world. When they are healthier, their more subjective, self-referential tendencies are very self-building, and their separation from the external helps them develop themselves without being too attached to their surroundings or to positive acclaim. The influence depends on the position in the tritype and the IV, I can explain w6 for you due to being able to contrast it to 5 and because 5 is still your core, but how the 4 manifests really depends on the position in tritype, IV, and accompanying enneatypes, so this explanation of E4 is especially tailored to 4 with 1+5 and 1+6 influence.


The 4 being a reactive type, they still have reactive sentiments, but deal with them in a more tempered way instead of the traditional sense of emotional reactivity and outbursts.

Being accompanied by two other competency / superego types, I have observed (I know tritype 145 and 146s though not with 5 as core) that they have an inner drive and desire that seems to be borne of E4 motivations- a dislike of being 'lumped in' together with others, to be obligated, assumed things of- they are faster to express their disagreement and sometimes this can even tip over to being uncooperative and possibly even aggression (especially with 6 in the tritype) or a blatant disregard and ignoring (especially with 5 in the tritype) when the person is steadfast in their beliefs or vision.

This is where their 'reactivity' comes out. 4s as cores are still like that, but I see that double competency (1, 5) and double superego (1, 6) creates this kind of tempering of the 4 that filters those drives in a more sensible manner that the person can communicate to others. Especially in tritype 145, I have observed that the 1+5 creates this vision through which the 4's desires and motivations are filtered through and more selectively focused towards their goals- and no one can stand in between that person and that path of vision or persuade, cajole, or guilt them otherwise. 4s being reflective and self-referential, I see tritype 145 and 146 being especially capable and especially focused in a more 'metaphysical' self-improvement for a 4, not just something more 'superficial' and 'obvious' for its own sake and especially simply for good appeal like good looks, a great body, and/or riches- but rather one that truly suits their vision of the person they want to be, how they want the world to be, or how the assess they should ideally operate despite certain environments and trends (this last one is most especially a 145 sentiment).

 

[Virtual ghost]

Rep: I suppose that what I was saying can be interesting and I was thinking about opening a thread about how different socio-economic systems effect the "enneagram lore". However I have concluded that such thread would pretty much be a monologue on my part, since there is a very clear domination of first worlders here and therefore I didn't open it. However if there is interest I suppose people can rep or like and in that case the thread will be opened


Old rep : if you are triple anything the order does not change that you are specific triple something.

 

[RadicalDoubt]

This is just my personal two cents, I think enneagram is (or at least can be) more innate than learned. For example, between my brother and I, he went 'I must please the environment to get what I want' whereas I went 'I must not bend to get what I want', my brother becoming overly accommodating, self-erasing, pleasing, and passive while I instead became temperamental and aggressive and almost hypersensitive to being 'controlled', even in less overt ways. This is despite being in the very same environment.

We completely disagree with how things should be dealt with, my brother overly valued peace and sooner chose pacifist methods at the expense of losing his voice and I overly valued autonomy and sooner became more confrontational than ever thinking of mediating first at the expense of being able to actually mediate in situations where mediation is possible. What gets to me is that it seemingly came naturally and we each just thought that our methods were the 'right answer' but could not explain why.

I agree with this. I think enneagram is probably a good combination of both environment and temperaments/initial tendencies to be honest, though I find that at times some favor one over the other (ie. some people are more easily changed via their environment than others, but then again that can even be related to just a persons internal tendencies).

 

[Earl Grey]

I agree with this. I think enneagram is probably a good combination of both environment and temperaments/initial tendencies to be honest, though I find that at times some favor one over the other (ie. some people are more easily changed via their environment than others, but then again that can even be related to just a persons internal tendencies).

The question is if the environment truly shapes the enneatype of the individual, or simply dictates how it manifests itself? There is also the question of what kind of change you particularly mean here- a reactionary adaptation, or a true internal change of the person's enneagram-drives and motivations? Generally speaking, I'd think even the most peaceful 9 explodes sometimes in the right situations, but it still is a 9, if you understand what I mean.

 

[Kanra Jest]

The question is if the environment truly shapes the enneatype of the individual, or simply dictates how it manifests itself? There is also the question of what kind of change you particularly mean here- a reactionary adaptation, or a true internal change of the person's enneagram-drives and motivations? Generally speaking, I'd think even the most peaceful 9 explodes sometimes in the right situations, but it still is a 9, if you understand what I mean.

Do we believe, like Mbti, that enneagram type cannot change no matter what we go through or experience? It was my understanding that Mbti was 'Nature' while Enneagram was 'Nurture'. Depending on that nurture, and traumatic experience, it would be that while Mbti would remain the same, Enneagram could very much change... I kinda feel like when we see these things as unchanging and inbred no matter what it understates the power of Trauma. And as a rule, really, enneagram is adaptations really. How we coped growing up.

But then I suppose it makes sense. I just question about Trauma because with Trauma and without can be a big difference.

 

[Coriolis]

Do we believe, like Mbti, that enneagram type cannot change no matter what we go through or experience? It was my understanding that Mbti was 'Nature' while Enneagram was 'Nurture'. Depending on that nurture, and traumatic experience, it would be that while Mbti would remain the same, Enneagram could very much change... I kinda feel like when we see these things as unchanging and inbred no matter what it understates the power of Trauma. And as a rule, really, enneagram is adaptations really. How we coped growing up.

But then I suppose it makes sense. I just question about Trauma because with Trauma and without can be a big difference.

MBTI is intended to describe only healthy types, meaning that if trauma produces some kind of pathological condition, MBTI cannot account for it, and it may make determining type in that system difficult. I am not sure how this plays out with enneagram.

These considerations aside, the basic theory of both systems suggests a closer connection between MBTI type and inherent properties (nature), than with enneagram. After all, we speak of cognitive functions, which suggests some relation to how the brain operates on a physiological level. That being said, connections have been observed between brain functioning and a longstanding practice of meditation, so even that can be altered by experience. The strongest evidence involves introversion and extraversion, which have been linked to specific aspects of brain physiology. Weaker evidence shows links to the Big 5 conscientiousness factor. I wouldn't be surprised to see more such connections made as our understanding of the brain improves, but that is pure speculation.

Enneagram is routinely described as capturing our motivations rather than our cognitive processing. This suggests a greater openness to external influences as we live life and go through different experiences. On the other hand, as [MENTION=35920]Ixaerus[/MENTION] correctly observed, people exposed to the same experiences and situations can react differently. Enneagram, then, may reflect the interaction between nature and nurture: nature provides the toolbox, and nurture informs what we build with it.

 

[Earl Grey]

Do we believe, like Mbti, that enneagram type cannot change no matter what we go through or experience? It was my understanding that Mbti was 'Nature' while Enneagram was 'Nurture'. Depending on that nurture, and traumatic experience, it would be that while Mbti would remain the same, Enneagram could very much change... I kinda feel like when we see these things as unchanging and inbred no matter what it understates the power of Trauma. And as a rule, really, enneagram is adaptations really. How we coped growing up.

But then I suppose it makes sense. I just question about Trauma because with Trauma and without can be a big difference.

Less a 'belief' and more that we have no conclusive evidence, so this much is speculation. As far as Enneagram goes, there are even writings about Enneagram childhoods influences or conditions that support the growth of someone into that certain, specific enneatype- but people who do not possess those childhoods still grow into their enneatype regardless. My problem with Enneagram possibly being molded to that extent by the external is that it insinuates that it is possible to 'raise' someone 'into' a certain enneagram type. Nothing wrong with that, except there are child-parent enneagram incompatibility/clashes almost as much as MBTI. As a result, I think there is something more innate than that. The changes in presentation is accounted for by the levels of health and points of connection in enneagram so far, and I have not seen evidence otherwise, unless the person was mistyped to begin with. And typing people accurately is another entire can of worms.

Other than that, more or less the things @Coriolis also said.