[Other/Multiple Enneatypes] Enneagram 7 vs 5 confusion

[Kanra Jest]

Kayyyyy....


I am so confused.

Was discussing enneagram with a friend and realized do to the 5 disintegrating to a 7, and 7 disintegrating to a 5. How the heck does someone even tell what that is?? Actually it was also related to Tritype

3-5-9 or 3-7-9 / 4-5-8 or 4-7-8 (Oh yeah, don't forget wings!)

I've realized I may actually be one of those and I have no idea because both are still so similar. They mirror

I have tendencies of 7 and 5 both but because I'm not always very healthy it's really hard to tell.

For example: 5 disintegrates to 7, and while it supposedly picks up the unhealthy traits of 7, they also tend to lock themselves away. So it's still sounds 5ish do to the schizoid shut in thing. I've read some 5's talking about that when they were more depressed, yet 7 disintegrates to 5 picking up one would think the same tendencies. Blah, blah.

LACK of Clarity, who knows

Anyway, if anyone can help clear this up that'd be appreciated.

 

[misfortuneteller]

If you're having trouble then they are probably a 7. The 5 doesn't resemble a 7 even if they have disintegrated a lot.

they also tend to lock themselves away.

This could apply to any unhealthy withdrawn type and often ENxPs too.

 

[Kanra Jest]

If you're having trouble then they are probably a 7. The 5 doesn't resemble a 7 even if they have disintegrated a lot.


This could apply to any unhealthy withdrawn type and often ENxPs too.

Then what does it mean when it states that a '5 disintegrates to 7'? What does a unhealthy 5 look like compared to an unhealthy 7 and how is their unhealthy states different?

 

[misfortuneteller]

Then what does it mean when it states that a '5 disintegrates to 7'?

They take on the low side of 7. They don't literally become 7s.

What does a unhealthy 5 look like compared to an unhealthy 7[

Kurt Cobain vs Robin Williams.

and how is their unhealthy states different?

They are different types...

 

[misfortuneteller]

Example of a integrated 7 that could resemble a 5:

Mary Beard (ENTP 7w6)

 

[Maou]

I was JUST thinking about this, and a thread just happened to appear!

I was debating my 5 typing again, and it could make sense if I am a 7 integrating to 5. Instead of an 8w7.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Disintegration and Integration are dated theories and have been thrown out in favor of Points of Connection, with characteristics of each connected type's highs and lows.

For example, Enneatype 4 has connection to e1 and e2, so a 4 might display the following characteristics:
1 - Refinement and self-discipline.
1 - Critical and judgemental.
2 - Caring and helpful.
2 - Needy, clingy, and manipulative.

The above is of course an oversimplification, but intentionally so in order to get the point across unpretentiously.

So, yes... enneatypes 5 and 7 are connected, and thus they would both display behavioral characteristics of the other's high and low sides. The difference though can be observed pretty easily: What's the level of action? Sevens are an active type with a bit of a frenetic mental energy, whereas fives are a withdrawn type with just as busy a mind, but in a much more focused manner (frenetic energy is not to be confused with neuroticism/anxiety as any type can have elements of that). Five is the observer. They feel overwhelmed by the external world and in order to feel protected from that, they observe it/people and learn as much as they can to mitigate anxiety. Sevens are the enthusiasts. They feel overwhelmed by their internal world, essentially anxious when things feel stagnant and restricted or lacking and painful, so to mitigate that, they strive to stay engaged and on the move, whether physically or mentally. They are known for planning in the sense that their minds often come up with ideas, and they can jump from one to the next with ease and enthusiasm. Sevens are also a positive outlook type (optimists), while fives are a competency type (realists, sometimes nihilists).

Here's a quote from the Enneagram Institute:

These types are seldom mistyped for one another, but they do have some similarities. Fives and Sevens are also both Thinking types. They are both highly curious, exploratory, and willing to try new ways of doing things. Both types also have a propensity to collect things and to be high strung. They are quite different emotionally and in their characteristic preoccupations and avoidances.

Fives tend to be more socially isolated and withdrawn, spending long hours alone working on their projects, reading, listening to music, and so forth. Fives prefer cerebral entertainment. Sevens are highly gregarious, and like to stay active. They enjoy a good read too, but get impatient with sitting around for extended periods of time. The gift of the Five is intense focus and concentration. The gift of the Seven is breadth of vision and synthesis. Sevens are also the optimists of the Enneagram, seeing the positive side of most things and wanting to avoid topics that get too dark, painful, or heavy. Fives are almost the opposite, seeing optimism as unrealistic and being drawn to the dark, the macabre, and the nihilistic side of life.

 

[Kanra Jest]

I was JUST thinking about this, and a thread just happened to appear!

I was debating my 5 typing again, and it could make sense if I am a 7 integrating to 5. Instead of an 8w7.

Exactly. What I've been struggling to figure out.

Disintegration and Integration are dated theories and have been thrown out in favor of Points of Connection, with characteristics of each connected type's highs and lows.

For example, Enneatype 4 has connection to e1 and e2, so a 4 might display the following characteristics:
1 - Refinement and self-discipline.
1 - Critical and judgemental.
2 - Caring and helpful.
2 - Needy, clingy, and manipulative.

The above is of course an oversimplification, but intentionally so in order to get the point across unpretentiously.

So, yes... enneatypes 5 and 7 are connected, and thus they would both display behavioral characteristics of the other's high and low sides. The difference though can be observed pretty easily: What's the level of action? Sevens are an active type with a bit of a frenetic mental energy, whereas fives are a withdrawn type with just as busy a mind, but in a much more focused manner (frenetic energy is not to be confused with neuroticism/anxiety as any type can have elements of that). Five is the observer. They feel overwhelmed by the external world and in order to feel protected from that, they observe it/people and learn as much as they can to mitigate anxiety. Sevens are the enthusiasts. They feel overwhelmed by their internal world, essentially anxious when things feel stagnant and restricted or lacking and painful, so to mitigate that, they strive to stay engaged and on the move, whether physically or mentally. They are known for planning in the sense that their minds often come up with ideas, and they can jump from one to the next with ease and enthusiasm. Sevens are also a positive outlook type (optimists), while fives are a competency type (realists, sometimes nihilists).

Here's a quote from the Enneagram Institute:

Both are active mental energy, though. One's more focused, one's more scattered. So in my case I'm both. I can be scattered (I have ADD) and yet when I'm working on something I'm passionate about I can zero in like a hawk and ignore everyone else. I feel relateable with the being overwhelmed by tedious things of the external world and wanting to prepare and only then go out fully into the world to know I'm competent(I'm doing that with some things), but at the same time I was a shut-in for like 5 years of my life in depression. Sometimes just gaming, texting(as I still need external stimulation), and school if I had to until i finally started doing more actual physical activities(moved out, bowling, hanging out more). And I can jump from one idea to the next being an ENTP(I rarely finish a book), but I have modes where I'm super focused as well(working on passionate projects). Thus the lines blurr. Because it's like "Sometimes I'm like this but sometimes I'm like that"

I actually think part of the confusion is because type 7 is often spoken of as if it's both physically and mentally active. Which I'm a lot more mentally active than physically but I can have a share of both, but externalizing mental ideas is more my area and makes me happy.

I also heard SX can make them both more intense which is what I am too. Really, this is a whole confusing mess.

Wait... Looking it up though 7's have a fear of their inner world? I don't really fear my inner world. And I suppose that direction of fear would be the core of it. I can't imagine a lot of people admitting they fear their internal world though.

As for the points of connection? That's new to me. Everywhere I look I just see disintegration/integration so can you link it?

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Exactly. What I've been struggling to figure out.


Both are active mental energy, though. One's more focused, one's more scattered. So in my case I'm both. I can be scattered (I have ADD) and yet when I'm working on something I'm passionate about I can zero in like a hawk and ignore everyone else. I feel relateable with the being overwhelmed by tedious things of the external world and wanting to prepare and only then go out fully into the world to know I'm competent(I'm doing that with some things), but at the same time I was a shut-in for like 5 years of my life in depression. Sometimes just gaming, texting(as I still need external stimulation), and school if I had to until i finally started doing more actual physical activities(moved out, bowling, hanging out more). And I can jump from one idea to the next being an ENTP(I rarely finish a book), but I have modes where I'm super focused as well(working on passionate projects). Thus the lines blurr. Because it's like "Sometimes I'm like this but sometimes I'm like that"

I actually think part of the confusion is because type 7 is often spoken of as if it's both physically and mentally active. Which I'm a lot more mentally active than physically but I can have a share of both, but externalizing mental ideas is more my area and makes me happy.

I also heard SX can make them both more intense which is what I am too. Really, this is a whole confusing mess.

Wait... Looking it up though 7's have a fear of their inner world? I don't really fear my inner world. And I suppose that direction of fear would be the core of it. I can't imagine a lot of people admitting they fear their internal world though.

As for the points of connection? That's new to me. Everywhere I look I just see disintegration/integration so can you link it?

You're looking at behavior. You have to get past that and closely observe motivations, which is only possible with in-depth research of the types core issues. Typing by behavior is a one-way ticket to a house of mirrors where every flash of a reflection grabs your attention while you lose focus of how you appear from all other angles.

In short, I recommend researching only the most valid resources (the founders and teachers of Enneagram).

 

[Kanra Jest]

You're looking at behavior. You have to get past that and closely observe motivations, which is only possible with in-depth research of the types core issues. Typing by behavior is a one-way ticket to a house of mirrors where every flash of a reflection grabs your attention while you lose focus of how you appear from all other angles.

In short, I recommend researching only the most valid resources (the founders and teachers of Enneagram).

The descriptions largely chalk down to behavior. All sorts of descriptions. And if we go to core fears, it still influences behavior. Derives from childhood experience. Which yes, breeds motivations.

mechanistic thought and behavior patterns arise as an attempted defense against recurrence of the trauma - wikipedia

I could continue to traverse the endless sea of websites looking for clarity I suppose, which I've been doing. But really it's just the disintegration and integration aspects that blur together and confuse. Other than that, I understand the core fear issue, as well as it being largely upbringing related patterns, defense mechanisms and such...

I might need actual suggestions. I'm well into enneagram but I never read much into the originators or if their was differences in it, and really once you do that it's like looking at Jung for the original MBTI which most don't use because it's different than the current one and further breeds confusion which is tiresome.

If I were to search inward in motivations I'm more cautious about the external world than my internal world. That is motivation, which leads to not wanting to take a more active part in it until ready, rather than taking more part in it to avoid self. Is that not motivation? Motivation I assume is largely tied to what we fear, want to avoid, and what we also desire and want to gain.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

The descriptions largely chalk down to behavior. All sorts of descriptions. And if we go to core fears, it still influences behavior. Derives from childhood experience. Which yes, breeds motivations.

mechanistic thought and behavior patterns arise as an attempted defense against recurrence of the trauma - wikipedia

I could continue to traverse the endless sea of websites looking for clarity I suppose, which I've been doing. But really it's just the disintegration and integration aspects that blur together and confuse. Other than that, I understand the core fear issue, as well as it being largely upbringing related patterns, defense mechanisms and such...

I might need actual suggestions. I'm well into enneagram but I never read much into the originators or if their was differences in it, and really once you do that it's like looking at Jung for the original MBTI which most don't use because it's different than the current one and further breeds confusion which is tiresome.

If I were to search inward in motivations I'm more cautious about the external world than my internal world. That is motivation, which leads to not wanting to take a more active part in it until ready, rather than taking more part in it to avoid self. Is that not motivation? Motivation I assume is largely tied to what we fear, want to avoid, and what we also desire and want to gain.

There is increasing evidence, both within the typing and scientific communities, that we are born with our personalities and merely modified by life. It's like being a set of blueprints. Maybe your family life was utter shit, so when you grew, you eliminated the family room and added a study. It's the same general outline but with subtle changes.

It's really no different than disease. You might be born with a greater chance of susceptibility to, say, an autoimmune disorder, carrying that gene. However, your chance of getting it is pretty low because it has to be activated by (largely unknown) external catalysts, such as trauma or an infection.