The displacement of types.

[Xander]

I read in one thread about ENFPs getting irritated that they "bend" too much and so they snap at some point. Now this made me think "but they flexed in the first place to suit themselves as they dislike disturbing the waters in such a fashion as complaining" ergo it's their fault that they need to "snap back".

Now I've been thinking about how each type is guilty of displacement.. INTPs and their displacing of how awkward they feel being out of touch with many subjects (usually due to them concentrating on what they enjoy and hence being unfamiliar with certain circumstances) and expressing anger at how "stupid" some things are. Or the ENFJ annoyance at other people not doing things "right" but excusing themselves whenever they feel justified.

I'm wondering... is the first step of maturing your type actually not based on studying other types and what they do but seeing the displacement and putting the brakes on it?

The reason is that I find that most mature NTs have stopped calling things "stupid" without good reason, mature NFs no longer jump at people when seemingly "universal" values are crossed. It's not really that say an ENFJ suddenly needs to study logic or some such but more that in looking into why they displace they'll find that it's more about defending their position with the only solid thing they have than actually enforcing their statement, hence it'd become clear that if they took some time to look at what they held dear and reasoned it a little more then their confidence will return and it'll be no longer necessary to beat down people who threaten it with a large tree (though this does not rule out that such may still be fun).

[Note :- None of this is refering to anyone here in particular... just incase anyone's feeling paranoid ]

 

[Gen]

I'm wondering... is the first step of maturing your type actually not based on studying other types and what they do but seeing the displacement and putting the brakes on it?

I don't think so. But I do think there is a difficulty in knowing the difference between "growing" and "displacement".

The ENFPs were talking about being the only one to compromise and feeling as if the other person was not grateful for it or compromising anything in return. I've had discussions about this with ENFPs and INTPs; these two types both tend to do it. The difference seems to be that the INTPs are less aware that they are doing it, and less aware of the anger they have about it. INTPs are less likely to snap back and more likely to crack (no emotion left for this other person).

Anyway, I don't think that "putting the brakes on" is the answer. That may stall growth. I think perhaps tentative steps and constant personal evaluation of your state of mind with regards to them are a better idea.

 

[Lookin4theBestNU]

I hope I can get into further into this at a later point today! So essentially you are saying that displacement is a problem that effects everyone and maturing is difficult if you do not or cannot recognize when you are doing this behavior?

 

[Xander]

I don't think so. But I do think there is a difficulty in knowing the difference between "growing" and "displacement".

The ENFPs were talking about being the only one to compromise and feeling as if the other person was not grateful for it or compromising anything in return. I've had discussions about this with ENFPs and INTPs; these two types both tend to do it. The difference seems to be that the INTPs are less aware that they are doing it, and less aware of the anger they have about it. INTPs are less likely to snap back and more likely to crack (no emotion left for this other person).

Anyway, I don't think that "putting the brakes on" is the answer. That may stall growth. I think perhaps tentative steps and constant personal evaluation of your state of mind with regards to them are a better idea.

Point well made. "Putting the brakes on" is the wrong analogy. I was meaning more that re-evaluating where the stress comes from and tackling that. Kind of finding the source and addressing it rather than getting stressed by the outcome of that source.

As for ENFPs in particular... I have no specific opinion on how to broach that particular gap in communication other than to communicate it more. Less 'wait until they cross THIS line then they'll get it' and more 'I'm flexing and you ARE moving my origional line'.

Perhaps when just the ENFP is flexing IS a case where the back lash is a necessary form of communication if the other side does not see that they are forcing the ENFP to flex. I'm just thinking that if it does keep happening with multiple people of various types and attitudes then the constant is the ENFP themselves and hence could not the source of the problem be within the ENFP themselves?

Btw, could you expand upon your point of the difference between progression and identifying displacement?

 

[Xander]

I hope I can get into further into this at a later point today! So essentially you are saying that displacement is a problem that effects everyone and maturing is difficult if you do not or cannot recognize when you are doing this behavior?

Yup.

(Never could understand why people object to ExxJs when you can take all that and pretty much sum it up in like a sentence


Swine. )

 

[Gen]

Point well made. "Putting the brakes on" is the wrong analogy. I was meaning more that re-evaluating where the stress comes from and tackling that. Kind of finding the source and addressing it rather than getting stressed by the outcome of that source.

As for ENFPs in particular... I have no specific opinion on how to broach that particular gap in communication other than to communicate it more. Less 'wait until they cross THIS line then they'll get it' and more 'I'm flexing and you ARE moving my origional line'.

Perhaps when just the ENFP is flexing IS a case where the back lash is a necessary form of communication if the other side does not see that they are forcing the ENFP to flex. I'm just thinking that if it does keep happening with multiple people of various types and attitudes then the constant is the ENFP themselves and hence could not the source of the problem be within the ENFP themselves?

Btw, could you expand upon your point of the difference between progression and identifying displacement?

Yeah its definitely an indication when it keeps happening to one person. I had a thread at one point somewhere a long time ago describing this happening to me, with INTPs agreeing that it happened to them as well. As I said, the difference tends to be that we (female INTPs it seems) give ground in relationships and the other person does what they want. But we tend not to be the most communicative people, nor are we particularly adept at being in touch with how we feel about it. The conclusion I came out of that thread with was that it was a problem we (female INTPs) needed to learn how to deal with. Compromise is good; communication about it is better. As far as I know, the difference when an ENFP does it is that they are more aware of how they feel about it (of course) and they tend to communicate that a little bit better. Not necessarily fully, but better.

Now, about identifying displacement...

I don't know. Its really really difficult and I can't definitively say that I was displaced in the past and now I've just grown. It is what I feel is true though. What I've been told is that with displacement you're more likely to feel a niggling in the back of your head. Something somewhere feels off. The problem with that, for some types, is that you have to be adept at feeling don't you? When I look back at times when I have felt displacement, I did feel that niggling but I didn't identify it for what it was. So if I'm not feeling it now, might that be because I'm not identifying it or because I'm not being displaced?

I do know that I'm comfortable and happy with what I feel is growth; whereas in the past I was constantly struggling to be a certain way. How you get there I don't know, there has to be a certain amount of discomfort in growing at first. Thats why I said small tentative steps and constant evaluation.

 

[Xander]

Yeah its definitely an indication when it keeps happening to one person. I had a thread at one point somewhere a long time ago describing this happening to me, with INTPs agreeing that it happened to them as well. As I said, the difference tends to be that we (female INTPs it seems) give ground in relationships and the other person does what they want. But we tend not to be the most communicative people, nor are we particularly adept at being in touch with how we feel about it. The conclusion I came out of that thread with was that it was a problem we (female INTPs) needed to learn how to deal with. Compromise is good; communication about it is better. As far as I know, the difference when an ENFP does it is that they are more aware of how they feel about it (of course) and they tend to communicate that a little bit better. Not necessarily fully, but better.

Rethinking over such things I am more of the opinion that whilst others can take advantage over our good nature ( ) it is also indicative of us taking the easy path. It is, afterall, easier often for us to bend than to stand firm again the tide of opposition. Hence it is slightly self indulgent and our dissent partially based in displacement.

I don't know. Its really really difficult and I can't definitively say that I was displaced in the past and now I've just grown. It is what I feel is true though. What I've been told is that with displacement you're more likely to feel a niggling in the back of your head. Something somewhere feels off. The problem with that, for some types, is that you have to be adept at feeling don't you? When I look back at times when I have felt displacement, I did feel that niggling but I didn't identify it for what it was. So if I'm not feeling it now, might that be because I'm not identifying it or because I'm not being displaced?

I do know that I'm comfortable and happy with what I feel is growth; whereas in the past I was constantly struggling to be a certain way. How you get there I don't know, there has to be a certain amount of discomfort in growing at first. Thats why I said small tentative steps and constant evaluation.

Ahah! I see where we're going wrong...

Displacement = I stub my toe on a chair.. "stupid chair"

Hence displacement of type is more an INTP blaming other's for expecting them to show emotion where as the source of that discomfort is not other's expectations but more their own feeling of discomfort with their own emotions.

 

[Gen]

Rethinking over such things I am more of the opinion that whilst others can take advantage over our good nature ( ) it is also indicative of us taking the easy path. It is, afterall, easier often for us to bend than to stand firm again the tide of opposition. Hence it is slightly self indulgent and our dissent partially based in displacement.

Ahah! I see where we're going wrong...

Displacement = I stub my toe on a chair.. "stupid chair"

Hence displacement of type is more an INTP blaming other's for expecting them to show emotion where as the source of that discomfort is not other's expectations but more their own feeling of discomfort with their own emotions.

Ah, displacement of blame not displacement of personality traits. I see. I don't do that.

 

[Dom]

Displacement = I stub my toe on a chair.. "stupid chair"

Hence displacement of type is more an INTP blaming other's for expecting them to show emotion where as the source of that discomfort is not other's expectations but more their own feeling of discomfort with their own emotions.

Ah....

I had just written a post about clarifying this...

Ok I see your point, if we are all honest with ourselves and accept our blame for the part we played in things then we can grow.

I agree, identifying when we've made mistakes helps us to grow.

Now this may not be public though Xander, and making justification for breaching a value etc is. Not very honest but there you go. I'd like to think that those people (which in some points does include myself) that breach their own rules and offer some flimsy justification for it, while returning to attacking others that breach it are at some level inside aware of the unfairness of that position. Personally I try to understand why people do things.

Coming back to the ENFP bend and snap, I can see how you'd say it's the ENFPs fault for bending in the first place. That's logical, but the anger in the enfp isn't that they are/were bent, it's that this compromise has gone un-noticed or uncared about to the point where the ENFP feels the other has little or no regard for their well being. If the enfp has exhausted, their perhaps limited methods for communicating, then they snap back as a final method to force the conversation. They did cause part of the problem by compromising but they are also trying to resolve that problem when they snap back. If an ENFP just accepted that the entire situation was his fault for bending, this may be considered by you as not displacing the guilt however, it would not resolve the original conflict over which the ENFP originaly bent. There are still problems that need to be resolved. The other person may need to bear some guilt; they accepted this bending and took advantage of it, they also failed to see the distress the enfp attempted to show due to it. In other words the other person my not be guilty of forcing the ENFP to bend in the first place, but they maybe guilty of leaving the enfp no choice but to snap back to get their opinion heard.

In a wider context, you are exactly right, we only really grow when we start accepting that it is only our own behavior we can control and to accept, whether we like it or not, that we make mistakes. It's my fault I stubbed my toes (and it even bleed! ) but maybe, while I'm able to cope with that and will be more careful in the future I don't wan my wife to think that I'm a clumsy oaf... "Stupid extension lead". Also directing my anger at the inanimate object at least gives me somewhere to vent the immediate frustration I have with my own lack of co-ordination.

 

[Xander]

Ah, displacement of blame not displacement of personality traits. I see. I don't do that.

How soon doth the natural ingress of the environmental humour take over the soul...

<see above>

First off... public what? This is all, as always, musings dear boy. I make no specific reference to any particular post or happening and nor do I intend to except within the bounds of this thread. If I have seemingly inferred something specific I assure you it's quite accidental and unintentional.


As for the ENFP thing... though I did say I'd not comment upon it... such fascinating creatures though... all those pretty colours...

*ahem*

The ENFP thing, can it not be communicated in with the whole "I'm flexing here"? So the communication is more "I'm flexing this once just for you but it's a one off okay?"?

It's a bit like my INTJ friend who gets frustrated at people for not thinking like he does and hence being "wrong" but he doesn't ever explain his thinking nor lead on to the tangents he uses and hence loses even himself. Ergo for him to develop, as you quite rightly condensed in your post, he need to see that the confusion is resulting from his own lack of ability to explain and that if he develops that he should get frustrated less.

 

[Dom]

First off... public what? This is all, as always, musings dear boy. I make no specific reference to any particular post or happening and nor do I intend to except within the bounds of this thread. If I have seemingly inferred something specific I assure you it's quite accidental and unintentional.

Oh no, I'm not thinking of any specific moment or anything like that my dear old friend. I meant public in general. Say I do something, a breach of a value, I may choose tell the rest of the world (public) my clever justification for it while realising that I don't really believe a word of it myself (private). That is what I meant!

As for the ENFP thing... though I did say I'd not comment upon it... such fascinating creatures though... all those pretty colours...

*ahem*

The ENFP thing, can it not be communicated in with the whole "I'm flexing here"? So the communication is more "I'm flexing this once just for you but it's a one off okay?"?

Yes yes yes, yes it could but then you are nto takign into account that the enfp would rather come up with 100 ways to say the same thing indirectly than saying it directly, and like Gen said about the INTPs they may at first not even realise how much they are resenting this 'bending'. The more important the other person is to the enfp the hard it is to be straight up honest about things (we may lose the other person) despite it being even more important to be honest with them.

It's a bit like my INTJ friend who gets frustrated at people for not thinking like he does and hence being "wrong" but he doesn't ever explain his thinking nor lead on to the tangents he uses and hence loses even himself. Ergo for him to develop, as you quite rightly condensed in your post, he need to see that the confusion is resulting from his own lack of ability to explain and that if he develops that he should get frustrated less.

Yeah, but I expect that once he tries to explain some people, having taken offence at his previous attitude, will still stubbornly refuse to understand what he is trying to say. Don't they get some blame? Couldn't they show a little more understanding? Would that not aid him in his attempts to develop (once he is actually trying to)

 

[Xander]

Oh no, I'm not thinking of any specific moment or anything like that my dear old friend. I meant public in general. Say I do something, a breach of a value, I may choose tell the rest of the world (public) my clever justification for it while realising that I don't really believe a word of it myself (private). That is what I meant!

Ah delusion... that's a different alley. Equally dark and strewn with obstacles and perhaps equally important..

Yes yes yes, yes it could but then you are nto takign into account that the enfp would rather come up with 100 ways to say the same thing indirectly than saying it directly, and like Gen said about the INTPs they may at first not even realise how much they are resenting this 'bending'. The more important the other person is to the enfp the hard it is to be straight up honest about things (we may lose the other person) despite it being even more important to be honest with them.

So you've identified the source, now you need to address that source.

You see just noticing it and labelling it, though a start, achieves little especially if this gives you a sense of achievement and so you sit back on your laurels not realising that you're actually enabling your own lack of development rather than improving upon it.

Yeah, but I expect that once he tries to explain some people, having taken offence at his previous attitude, will still stubbornly refuse to understand what he is trying to say. Don't they get some blame? Couldn't they show a little more understanding? Would that not aid him in his attempts to develop (once he is actually trying to)

All this is entirely dependant upon whom the other party is. That analysis of the interpersonal dynamics (like the middle management words?) is a might more complex than one topic can cover... it could even spread into a whole field of psychology... shall we name that field MBTI?

Seriously though... in my opinion in general yes they should carry some of the blame but to point out that another is equally at fault is also engaging in projection and such is unhealthy and yet another method of convincing yourself that languishing in your current state is okay.

 

[Jack Flak]

OP: They call that wisdom, Xander.