Equality

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

It seems to me that a great deal of the political issues prominent in the 21st century center around the concept of equality. I suppose, then, it might be a useful exercise to see what other people might describe as equality. I suppose I'm curious about people's answers to the following questions. (This isn't intended as a debate thread, and is intended more along the lines of figuring out what people actually think.) Please don't link to YouTube videos from various internet celebrities; I wish to know what you yourself think in your own words, although quotations are fine.

• Is equality of opportunity important?
• Equality of outcome?
• Is equality a simple matter of treating everyone the same, or does it happen to be something more complex?
• Do you think your psychological type plays a role in your conceptions of equality?
• Is equality in general even important? Why, or why not?
• What are the biggest barriers to equality?

 

[Agent Washington]

Is equality of opportunity important?
Y
Equality of outcome?
What exactly is meant by outcome?
Is equality a simple matter of treating everyone the same, or does it happen to be something more complex?
Complex-er.
Do you think your psychological type plays a role in your conceptions of equality?
No. I also think most people are simple-minded enough that their type has nothing to do with it.
Is equality in general even important? Why, or why not?
...Aside from moral reasons, it also appears to be the most sustainable model with regards to business management in the long run.
Not that I give a shit about businesses, but it has implications for society.
What are the biggest barriers to equality?
Where I'm from, the lack of equality laws. I think human rights, except for the right to property insofar as right to property contradicts rights to congregation and freedom, as well as the ineffectiveness of protecting rights without affiliation to a national state recognising said rights, is generally the right direction. Rights are also useless without consciousness of societal duty towards its constituents.

 

[that's not my name]

[*]Is equality of opportunity important?

Yes, I think for a society to be its most productive there needs to be equality of opportunity (in the legal sense), so that people who are better suited for certain things can find their way to doing those things if they choose.

[*]Equality of outcome?

No. It's pretty much impossible to regulate and any attempt to will waste tons of resources that could go to making society more productive. I also think it can create some strange situations economically and the closer we can get to having the market work organically the better it is for the economy and progress in any industry.

[*]Is equality a simple matter of treating everyone the same, or does it happen to be something more complex?

Treating everyone the same under the law. That's it.

[*]Do you think your psychological type plays a role in your conceptions of equality?

I think if I were another type I would not think as deeply about it, since dominant function is subjective logic. But to answer your question more broadly, if everyone were a different person, would their opinion be different than it is now? Maybe...almost certainly if their views are nuanced.

[*]Is equality in general even important? Why, or why not?

In the legal sense it is, for the reason I mentioned in the first question. In any other sense, it doesn't exist and if people try to force it into existence its at the risk of creating a society out of touch with reality.

[*]What are the biggest barriers to equality?

Social norms that go against the idea of legal equality, complex situations (like child support, divorce, child custody, abortion...etc), people who pretend they are for equality but are for supremacy and try to divide americans along identity lines (basically identity politics is the fucking worst).

 

[LovecraftianMonstrosity]

This is a good topic that deserves a long response, but I am still summoning up the force of will to exert myself in a long post.

 

[deathwarmedup]

Is equality of opportunity important?

It's a moral imperative. To deny it, either actively or passively, means that some person or group has taken it upon themselves to set the limits of another's aspiration.

Equality of outcome?

If we'd always strived for this we'd still be in the stone age.

Is equality a simple matter of treating everyone the same, or does it happen to be something more complex?

It's about being mindful of maintaining a form of relationship between people that allows for the basic dignity of everyone in that relationship. The heart of inequality is enforced submission of one to another (slavery); the heart of equality is universal freedom - the dignity of freedom. The enforced equality and the passive inequality of totalitarian Communism and 19th century High Capitalism were both forms of freedom-denying and dignity-denying bondage. Bondage persists in varying degrees of force, subtlety and intentionality as per the economic conditions (the exclusion of modern young British people from home ownership and accumulation of capital and the passive failure to fully address it).

Do you think your psychological type plays a role in your conceptions of equality?

Yes. And my culture, and upbringing and education, and genes.

What are the biggest barriers to equality?

Only stone age hunter gatherer groups ever achieved a form of social equality and it was an active equality, enforced because their societies were small enough to enable it and their "economies" required cooperation over property accumulation and stability in the absence of laws. Passive equality is not possible because it's not natural. Hierarchy and authority are in our evolutionary legacy, and some remain more entranced by that legacy than others. I don't believe that makes it right because I don't believe we are merely animals. Take a rickshaw ride for a minute - just long enough to feel the effort of the man's shoulders and thighs jolting back through the carriage and you might understand how profoundly wrong true inequality is and that another man is no more an animal than you are and has no less dignity. The most shameful thing I ever did.

 

[Ace_]

I think equality of outcome is a cancer that will eat away at the foundations of a society.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I think a lot of people don't even fully grasp the concept of equality, to the point it's become another buzzword people toss about without fully considering.

-I would answer that equality of opportunity is desirable, while equality of outcome, while it would be nice, is not a desirable goal so long as the means outweigh the ends in their harm.

-In terms of treating everyone with the same base level of respect, I think that's a good approach.


Have you looked into terms like "luck egalitarianism"?

I think equality has become oversimplified as a term, probably most "moderate" people inbetween political extremes wouldn't mind some basic form of equality, but it seems that a lot of people have drastically different ideas of what the end product of perfect equality might even look like.

 

[Typh0n]

Is equality of opportunity important?

Yes. It is necessary people have their basic rights recognized by law. And I feel this is a right.

Equality of outcome?

This is different. It cannot be attempted except by means few would approve of. I am with Hayek and Nozick in saying that eqaulity of outcome and freedom are incompatible. And I prefer freedom.

Is equality a simple matter of treating everyone the same, or does it happen to be something more complex?

Treating everyone the same is indiscrimination, not equality. But they are related, indiscrimination and equality. Equality of opportunity doesn't allow discrimination in matters of law. And eqaulity of outcome doesn't allow discrimination in personal choices. The latter reason is a way of saying liberty and and equality of outcome are incompatible. Equality of outcome has to be forced in order to be brought about: and through this process of forcing people to make choices that are "good for the welfare of society" you take away freedom and responsiblity.

Do you think your psychological type plays a role in your conceptions of equality?

I don't know.

Is equality in general even important? Why, or why not?

Equality before law is important, not equality of outcome.

What are the biggest barriers to equality?

Not sure.

 

[Bush]

The more opportunity we have, the more we allow the best matches of people to interests, jobs, and/or one another to happen more naturally. Supply/demand-ish systems work best when opportunities and people can actually be matched. Opportunity means removing artificial barriers, especially the barriers of entry. That's good for self-actualization, productivity, moving forward as a society.. you name it: personal fulfillment self-organizing to societal fulfillment. Barriers to opportunity just clip perfectly good wings.

The ideal is for everyone to have infinite opportunity: the easiest way for that sort of matching to occur. You know, access to every single bit of information, resources, how-to guides, religious texts, collective wisdom, job postings, etc. that's out there. But finite is all we've got.

Finite equal opportunity, as a goal in and of itself, is only good if (a) you're looking at life as a track meet or (b) prioritizing fairness above all else. If you were God, you could make opportunity equal across the board by seizing everyone's assets and handing everyone a $10 bill. "Here's what everyone starts with. Good luck!" That simply clips everyone's wings, but hey -- equal opportunity!

But, again, finite is all we've got. How do we approach (maybe even approximate) infinite opportunity with what we have, then? How do we square reality with fairness? What's fair -- do we distribute our finite resources or not? To what degree? That's where economic systems, policies, laws, (hopefully equal) enforcement of those laws, etc. come into play.


But equal outcomes? No. Hell no. Just set it all up right and see how it shakes out.

 

[ceecee]

I think equality of outcome is a cancer that will eat away at the foundations of a society.

I think people tend to take anyone saying <something> is a cancer less seriously than they would had another word been chosen.

Equal outcomes are a ridiculous expectation. We have finite opportunities but they aren't managed or available in an equal way, they never have been. Starting by acknowledging that fact might be a better conversation than anything else right now.

 

[Coriolis]

Is equality of opportunity important?
This is the most important. Only when we have it, can we know that people's different outcomes really are a function of their desire, industry, and personal choices.

Equality of outcome?
Not important for its own sake, but society overall will do better (greater productivity, less wasted resources) when extremes of outcomes are minimized, at least on the lower/negative end.

Is equality a simple matter of treating everyone the same, or does it happen to be something more complex?
It all depends on where we are applying the yardstick of "sameness". Say the Army wants to treat all its new recruits equally. Does that mean each one gets the same size uniform, the same amount of food, the same job training? No. "Equal" here is applied at a higher level, to mean that each recruit gets a properly fitting uniform, adequate food, and job training consistent with his/her abilities and the needs of the Army.

Do you think your psychological type plays a role in your conceptions of equality?
I have no idea.

Is equality in general even important? Why, or why not?
Equality of opportunity is especially important, as it enables the greatest productivity/accomplishment both on an individual level, and for the community/society. This is because limiting opportunity for some people, or allowing artificial limits to persist, prevents them from realizing their potential and using their talents/abilities for the benefit of themselves and others. It is also important in maintaining an atmosphere of fairness, which shows people they will be rewarded for their efforts.

What are the biggest barriers to equality?
This is a complicated question, and I may return to it again later. For now, I can see many factors all tangled up: belief that inequality of opportunity is OK (why address something that isn't a problem?); failure to recognize our common humanity (seeing the world in "us" and "them"); disagreement over the best ways to improve equality of opportunity. Most of the "easy" steps to improve equality have been taken, namely changing laws and lifting restrictions that bar certain groups from this or that opportunity. The biggest barrier now is economic. Access to opportunity is often controlled by ability to pay. This especially limits kids/young people who are still dependent on parents/family. The fact that a few here and there are able to rise above this by dint of luck or herculean efforts is often used as evidence that the barriers are not that significant.

 

[Forever]

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Is equality a simple matter of treating everyone the same, or does it happen to be something more complex?
It all depends on where we are applying the yardstick of "sameness". Say the Army wants to treat all its new recruits equally. Does that mean each one gets the same size uniform, the same amount of food, the same job training? No. "Equal" here is applied at a higher level, to mean that each recruit gets a properly fitting uniform, adequate food, and job training consistent with his/her abilities and the needs of the Army.

I understand the basic point being made here, but I suppose I have some questions about where the boundaries lie. That is, to what extent can a situation be altered for the sake of others, and still be considered equality? I suppose we could define it as when situations are changed for the sake of fulfilling needs. But how are we defining needs? For instance, what would be psychological needs?

 

[Amargith]

For me, this is the wrong question - and the wrong approach.

Id instead ask: what does each living being need to thrive?

In the context of a job or situations like it, id ask: what is it each individual can contribute when given the opportunity to thrive and how does that help get the job done in the best possible way? (And contribute to the tribe/society)

Optimization through support to thrive for each individual id what the word 'equal' should mean when talking about living beings as each is in fact unique.

It is one of the most common mistakes made, I feel, when systemitizing and generalizing. People typically start from the top down with the objects and plans and drecrees and get pissy when the living organisms they dont bother to take into account - however flexible they may be - cannot conform to that premade box fully and dont thrive.

We re so used to bending things to our will through force and making things happen that we cant see its just absolutely the wrong approach with living beings and only yields limited short term results with a high price tag for said living being who gets discarded as 'weak' or 'broken'.

 

[anticlimatic]

Equality is horribly unattractive to Humans, which are pack creatures and competitive by nature. When people say they want it, at least regarding equality of outcome, what they really mean is that they want upward mobility. They want more; to be better than they currently are or anyone like them. You never hear people talk about equality in reductionist terms for themselves, it's always about taking away from other people- because nobody wants to voluntarily climb down the ladder for "equality" sake. Up is the only direction, therefore that is the element at play that should be targeted for consideration, not some arbitrary word for "balance" that sounds good morally. If people who preached equality went out and acquired money (without stealing it), then gave half of it to someone else for the sake of furthering the equality agenda, I might start listening to what they had to say.

The most addictive games for humans are games that begin with some type of equality of opportunity, and then are immediately modified by luck before the player even has much of a say: poker/gambling, PUBG, etc- so in a way we don't even want equality of opportunity in a pure form. We all just want to be better than others and have more than others, and we want God and the luck of fate to provide it for us- to mark us as "chosen." We are cosmic children with daddy attention issues, no more no less.

 

[anticlimatic]

Is equality of opportunity important?

Yes and no.

Equality of outcome?

Not in the slightest.

Is equality a simple matter of treating everyone the same, or does it happen to be something more complex?

The harder one tries to rationalize the concept of equality regarding humans, the more complicated it will need to be.

Do you think your psychological type plays a role in your conceptions of equality?

Undoubtably.

Is equality in general even important? Why, or why not?
It's important to understand how the concept pertains to human nature, even though such an understanding will yield the end result that it is antithetical to human nature. It's still important to observe the nuts and bolts of how though.

What are the biggest barriers to equality?

Reality. Physics. Gravity. Matter. Inertia. Etc.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

It is one of the most common mistakes made, I feel, when systemitizing and generalizing. People typically start from the top down with the objects and plans and drecrees and get pissy when the living organisms they dont bother to take into account - however flexible they may be - cannot conform to that premade box fully and dont thrive.

The general nature of the OP, which determined the direction of the entire thread, was a deliberate choice. I wanted people to fully bring their own interpretations to the table based on their own experiences, something that may not be possible if things were more specific. I also thought it might be useful for stripping any baggage from the discussion, and for making the discussion more politically neutral. I was cognizant of possible methods for preventing this thread from devolving into derailment, which would be more likely if I had not covered the topic in general terms. It takes effort to parse from the general to the specific, which means that people who wish to proceed with talking points rather than the topic at hand will have a significant barrier to overcome.

 

[Lark]

Equality, freedom, equality, love, equality, happiness, equality.

 

[sLiPpY]

Is equality of opportunity important? No it isn't, being it requires extraordinary cognitive dissonance to even entertain such illusory notions, in the face of a reality that's quite different.

Equality of outcome? Ah, yes...the "Everyone gets a Trophy" mentality, that has led many employers to actively recruit older workers, they'd previously preferred to have shown the door.

Is equality a simple matter of treating everyone the same, or does it happen to be something more complex? That's an oxymoron, I can't even begin to entertain.

Do you think your psychological type plays a role in your conceptions of equality? Good question. Pretty sure it does, ISTP's are typically sought out for a variety of problem solving task, others simply don't have the capacity to do...we pick up naturally, it isn't and cannot be taught at work, home, community, etc.

Is equality in general even important? Why, or why not? Equality is an important concept to those who have illusions to peddle, or the mentality of victim-hood get's their duff's in a mode where either they can feel better about, what they have failed to give themselves, or simply don't have the natural skills, abilities, and effort meets opportunity to do.

What are the biggest barriers to equality? The stupidity of thinking equality is even remotely possible; or failing to consider the opportunity cost of pursuing the illusion. For example the decades old attempt at creating equality in the higher education system; has resulted in leaving American students behind...when it comes to being prepared and actually qualified for Graduate School in Europe.

 

[devaf]

It seems to me that a great deal of the political issues prominent in the 21st century center around the concept of equality. I suppose, then, it might be a useful exercise to see what other people might describe as equality. I suppose I'm curious about people's answers to the following questions. (This isn't intended as a debate thread, and is intended more along the lines of figuring out what people actually think.) Please don't link to YouTube videos from various internet celebrities; I wish to know what you yourself think in your own words, although quotations are fine.

• Is equality of opportunity important?
• Equality of outcome?
• Is equality a simple matter of treating everyone the same, or does it happen to be something more complex?
• Do you think your psychological type plays a role in your conceptions of equality?
• Is equality in general even important? Why, or why not?
• What are the biggest barriers to equality?

It seems to me that a great deal of the political issues prominent in the 21st century center around the concept of equality.

This is true!

Is equality of opportunity important?

Yes. Viewing the world as a play of forces, this is a progressive movement and is in conflict with many adverse developments.

Equality of outcome?

If equality is not confounded with hierarchy, which isn't going anywhere as far as one can see, equality of outcome is certainly a welcome possibility and will mean that such a society is ready to take a very great step forward.

Is equality a simple matter of treating everyone the same, or does it happen to be something more complex?

Simply, it requires a common culture and mind which is very plastic and not merely a written framework for governance. 'Are you a civil person?' is very complex in the hands of the intellectual, but simple enough for the man on the street (or a Typologycentral moderator).

Do you think your psychological type plays a role in your conceptions of equality?

Equality of mind is an essential transformation and component and psychological type has its place in understanding oneself and others.

Samatva - Wikipedia

Is equality in general even important? Why, or why not?

Equality is important, with the caveat that we want to pull up everything and progress and not go the wrong way and all become equal devils. Some arguments against this are that so far there has not been any true equality, even when mandated by force of law or that nature and evolution have proceeded best in breach of the principle. But, for now, this is a good motive to have and build upon, otherwise there is going to be greater violence, destruction and chaos ultimately.

What are the biggest barriers to equality?

The nature of humans & the primacy of economic and military motive.