Has anyone gotten the same pattern on Jaime, that of a weak man who mirrors who he's closest to, at the moment?
Yeah, for sure, he's got daddy issues. It's as if Cersei is mommy and daddy to him since she shames him like Tywin did when he didn't behave and gives him sex/approval when she needs him. As a guess, he's an ISFJ loyalist.He's really an interesting character to me because I don't work like him at all.
He seems to be practical, somewhat compassionate, used to be cocky and self-assured until he lost his hand. I'm not sure why he fixated on Cersei, although what we're seen of him with Tywin in the first few seasons suggests there was a huge "cold vs warm" issue there, Tywin was the daddy who kept guilting and shaming Jaime to mold him into what he wanted from him, which Jaime resented but had trouble pushing aside. Some of this "weakness" shouldn't have been weakness, I think it's just Jaime trying to do good by the person he is with and caring for everyone's feelings... but at the same time, he was also damaged badly by his father and I think it made him weaker in some ways, he's still trying to climb out from under Tywin's shadow and shame.
That whole thing about being the Kingslayer too really kills him and erodes his confidence. Everyone despises him for breaking a vow of loyalty as an act of compassion, which makes Jaime seem a little desperate to win back approval / have a better public image, and leaves him wrestling with being compassionate because it screwed him over so bad in the past.
... anyway, tl;dr, Jaime still wants to be loved on some level, and it makes him weaker. I don't really want to call his ability to empathize "weakness" but it can leave him open to being manipulated and/or blind to certain realities. And yes, he does kind of mold himself to whoever he is with -- again, I think it's the "approval" factor at play.
Yeah, for sure, he's got daddy issues. It's as if Cersei is mommy and daddy to him since she shames him like Tywin did when he didn't behave and gives him sex/approval when she needs him. As a guess, he's an ISFJ loyalist.
There's a thread of nobility that runs through him. Unfortunately for GoT, redemption isn't the name of the game.
ISFP is also possible. I'm certainly not the best at typing which feeler type for sure, better at typing thinkers.I scan him as non-closure oriented, so ISFP.
But yeah, agreed about the nobility streak. There's something good in him. Brienne has tried to coax it out further. I think Jaime escaped from a lot of self-examination for so long by being the Golden Boy and a talented warrior; he had been able to rest on his laurels. Now that he has nothing (well, aside from Cersei, who seems to repulse him a bit more each day), he's had to find some reason to live... or he's just going to give up and die.
Out of the three, for some reason Cersei seems to be the one born without ethical altruism. She just sees the order of things in a certain way, and also is very aggressive at defending and maintaining her turf regardless of the cost.
When moving in their Direction of Integration (growth), vain, deceitful Threes become more cooperative and committed to others, like healthy Sixes. Learn more about the arrows.
Yeah, for sure, he's got daddy issues. It's as if Cersei is mommy and daddy to him since she shames him like Tywin did when he didn't behave and gives him sex/approval when she needs him. As a guess, he's an ISFJ loyalist.
There's a thread of nobility that runs through him. Unfortunately for GoT, redemption isn't the name of the game.
- Olenna Tyrell was right. They should have attacked King's Landing without listening to the men (thinking too much).
Take control first, build later. People would have hater Danny though, but time would have healed those wounds.
- Glad Jamie managed to take over Highgarden. I couldn't bear to see Euron Greyjoy take all the glory. Then again he deserved it. He fought bravely and destroyed the enemies fleet.
- I don't want the Sand Snakes (and Ellaria) to suffer, but they did deserve death for Myrcella (who was a sweetheart), Doran Martell and his son.
- Was sad to see Olenna Tyrell go like that. I though Highgarden had the best warriors? They fell so quick. Maybe Jamie and Randyll Tarly was too good?
Thanks, I already half read that some while back.
I see you and bechimo typing Jamie as a ISFX. When I was watching the first episode I thought to myself what a shitty ESTP e3 he is. I see him as a ESTP E3 who is becoming healthy thereby integrating/growing into a e6.
From an e3 description -
He is just maturing.
Just a thought.
Don't forget, he was also largely without a mom, either, in addition to having a prick like Tywin as a father. I expect that parental environment played a role in his incestuous feelings.
Agreed. That said, even though I despise Cersei, I was on her side against Ellaria since Myrcella was innocent and a sweet child. Ellaria and her poisonous children were too ruled by their emotions and made some piss, poor choices.
Yup, hence why my reference to Cersei as his mommy figure too.Don't forget, he was also largely without a mom, either, in addition to having a prick like Tywin as a father. I expect that parental environment played a role in his incestuous feelings.
Agreed. Oberyn was a good man under it all, albeit pride and vengeance got him dead in the end. Doran and Trystane were the best of the bunch and as usual on GoT, they had to die. Their deaths were another reason why Ellaria deserves what she's getting. Unfortunately, since Ellaria's being kept alive, she might be freed in the future when Dany conquers Kings Landing or possibly accidentally freed during the siege.I agree with that too.
Myrcella did not deserve what she got.
Oberyn was killed in combat that he chose, regardless of why or who he was fighting. So his death is on him. (And the moron won. Then got hamstrung by his own passions.) Even if Cersei was a creep, it was really Oberyn's choice. Even OBERYN would have despised what Ellaria did, he often would tout how the Dorne were not savages and that little girls could be safe there.
I really hated the Sand Snakes and I don't really like the direction the show took Ellaria. (I think she was different in the books?)
So yeah, regardless, she and her brood had it coming. It's just sad that Oberyn's lineage is now deleted, because he actually was good at heart.
So... Olenna. My favorite character.
here's an article with some of her better quotes in it. She had all the good lines. Diana Rigg, classy and sharp-tongued as always.
‘Game of Thrones’ Lady Olenna Tyrell: A Look Back at the Queen of Thorns’ Best Insults and Quotes
As soon as I saw her sitting in the room alone, I was like oooh I know someone who isn't going to like this.
In the books, it's more complicated because different Sand Snakes have somewhat different plans, however, briefly summarized, it's like this:I really hated the Sand Snakes and I don't really like the direction the show took Ellaria. (I think she was different in the books?)
In the books, it's more complicated because different Sand Snakes have somewhat different plans, however, briefly summarized, it's like this:
Doran's daughter Arianne (not in the show, but she's his heir here due to Dornish inheritance working differently) plots with the Sand Snakes to crown Myrcella queen in opposition to Tommen (not murder her). Doran gets wind of this and wanting to avoid a war, imprisons them. He then lets them out and reveals that he has pro-Targaryen sympathies and his own plans about getting revenge against House Lannister by allying with Danerys. Specifically, this involves having his other son Quentyn (also not in the show), travel to Mereen and win the hand of Danerys in marriage. But once Quentyn reaches Mereen, he finds the queen less receptive (can't remember if she married Hidzahr at that point already or not), and so attempts to ride one of the other two dragons to win her favor. Unfortunately, the dragons end up burning him alive and causing chaos in Mereen. (The Battle of Mereen is also shaping up to be a much more epic affair than it was in the show... something like Blackwater and the Battle of the Wall times 5.)
There's a scene with Ellaria in book five where she sets herself up in opposition to the Sand Snakes and Arianne. She's grief stricken and wants to avoid the war that her kin will surely bring.
While there still is a desire for vengenance among the Martells, it's a lot more nuanced and nearly so stupid or cold-blooded. They come off as more likeable and it's easier to see the similarities they share with Oberyn. As a side note, it's unclear if House Martell will remain pro Danerys, both due to Doran's son being burnt alive and other factors that are too complicated to explain here.
Needless to say, the book did it better. I understand why they trimmed the subplot with Quentyn, but did the have to make all the Sand Snakes and Ellaria so damn stupid and clumsy in their quest for vengeance?
The Tyrells, however, are significantly fleshed-out compared to their book counterparts. Olenna in particular gets much more screen time on TV. I wish their Dornish equivalents didn't have to suffer for it, though. Arianne is actually a POV character for a few chapters.
Anyway, the Martells were my favorite house (other than possibly the Targaryens) in the books and I'm not super happy about how they botched everyone except Oberyn. I was super excited when I heard the cast Alexander Siddig for Doran but he was mostly wasted. I'm glad that they've essentially been dispensed with so that now I can stop being annoyed by that.
Okay, and back to Tyrion's origin briefly:
Is the general thought now that
- Tywin wasn't actually Tyrion's blood father -- that Joanna Lannister was either having an affair or was raped by a Targaryan?
- Tywin takes ownership of Tyrion as his own child because to not do so would bring shame on the Lannister name and/or on Joanna's memory. Tywin loved Joanna.
- However, Tywin basically vacillates between doing the "civil" thing by Tryion while also hating and abusing him in various ways over the years. It would explain the cold fury he often showed around Tyrion. And also why he fine with executing him once he had a chance to do so.
- It would also explain Cersei's instinctive hatred... because Tyrion stole her mother from her AND essentially she somehow has recognized he's not really a Lannister and she's tribal as hell.
- Of course, Jaime being more kind-hearted and accepting would bond with his brother regardless and is probably pretty unaware of any of this.
- This would explain in the show why Tywin at the very end claimed Tyrion was not his son ("you are no son of mine"), but Tyrion shot him before anything else could be revealed.
Anyway, if Tyrion has Targaryan blood as well...