Do people need to reproduce to feel complete?

[Cowardly]

there are about seven thousand million of us alive today.

Seven thousand thousand thousand.

 

[small.wonder]

Yeah I get the same satisfaction out of seeing that too. That 'feeling' is not wholly logical but it's there. I can't help but to wonder what my own family would look like and be like. The desire for children waxes and wanes on me. On the one hand I sometimes think about how awesome it would be but then I see others (good parents btw) raise their children and how their lives have gone through a paradigm shift. Their lives have become about their children first and this is for at least 18-20 (or more depending on how many children are expected/desired). I see it as a worthy endeavor, even exciting, but also limiting and restricting and I don't know how I feel about that quite yet.

I agree that there are definitely joys and sorrows of parenthood, it's a fact that I think must be totally embraced when starting a family (but then, the same can be said of any LTR). From observation, a good deal of parents still have this illogical notion of perfect, always delightful parenthood-- that's just silly. The negative parts of parenthood do seem worth it for the joys, though, and they even can produce the character that is required to be a great parent. I experienced some of that in my five years as a Nanny, and now with my nephew-- yes, there will be sessions of crying that could shatter glass (at least one), with all possible solutions exhausted, when you just have to be with them in it. It's a valuable skill, that I think can also be applied to teenagers later on. Applied to human relationship in general really.

Your comments about people whose lives center around their children, are pretty true to life. I'm not sure if that's totally a good thing, or that it has to be that way. Our culture tells us a lot of crap about how children should be raised, that they need to have a sport and be learning an instrument by the time they are 5, or that they'll be damaged if they don't have a themed birthday party every year of their life. Personally, I think there is so much more to life than those things, and so many ways to pour goodness, love and knowledge into kids. I know people grew up all over the world, and has that affected them? Yeah, in both positive and negative ways (just as living in the same place your whole life would). When I have kids one day, I don't know that (aside from early years sleep schedules and feeding) my lifestyle will change much-- my family will just be in it with me. I'll still explore state parks, visit places I haven't been, try new restaurants, move somewhere new occasionally, create art and learn new things. My brother and SIL have actually modeled that pretty well for me, in that they didn't allow stigma, fear or public opinion keep them from bringing my nephew to tons of public place since he was born. Because of that, the kid has been totally comfortable in restaurants, at weddings, museums, what have you, his entire two years! I've never seen him cry once in a restaurant, because it's normal to him. I think parents sometimes cling to the home base too much, because they think it's less of a hassle, or more comfortable. In reality, kids need exposure from a young age, to things we want them to be chill about.

So yeah, unless your lifestyle is bar/party centric, kids don't have to = majority homebound status. If that's what you mean about change?

I appreciate that you put a high value on yourself and expect no less than from your future partner. It bodes well for having children and raising them in a healthy, loving, and productive environment. What kind of mother do you want to be? I mean career wise (stay at home or one of you guys staying at home or both working with trusted caretakers to watch your children when you're working). Would you home school?

Regarding this second part, thank you! So as not to derail the thread, I'll PM you.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

Simple answer: Yes

Many cultures contain some sort of proverb that carries the idea of this Greek one: "A man is fully a man when he has planted a tree, written a book and raised a child".

More detailed answer: Yes, unless they have resolved not to pro-create and have supplemented a personal value system that includes other human rewards and incentives (travel, self-indulgence, career satisfaction, quality coupling, hobbies etc.)

Further factors: Hormones, the nature & nurture of one’s background, simple lack of desire to parent or to have genes carried forward, societal expectation (someone from a broken home may desire to ‘do things right’ {differently} in their own family creation, someone from a culture with large families may feel more pressure to continue tradition…)

It would be insulting to people that do not have children to say that one cannot have a ‘rich and complete’ life without children. Would infertility render those people’s lives automatically “less then”? Without possibility of a rewarding existence?

However, the family unit IS the building block of civilization.

Each family is a culture onto itself. Even a couple has: a distinct language (private jokes, common experiences) and develops unique traditions. It is the human instinct both: to further one’s own genes AND to pass on our cultural legacy. Even our family heritage.

~ Add to that the desire of ‘seeing oneself’ in a child.

~ Compounded by the natural desires that arise when you truly love someone: to see the qualities THEY possess, “living” in a mutual creation.

~ Also, factoring in the desire to continue family lines or names and to experience familial support like @kuyeii mentioned.

Personally, I feel the desire for ‘children to complete one’s life’ is not a good motivation for reproduction.

Parenthood requires self-sacrifice, creativity, patience and years of devotion. Also, adaptive flexibility because of the unpredictability involved. Probably best then if personally-based expectations come secondary.

Primary motivation is hopefully the desire to be a quality parent. Having less pre-conceived expectations and instead, ’stewarding’ the child successfully along paths of the child's (ultimately) choosing.

To properly transport a child into responsible, thoughtful, independent and rewarding adulthood that contributes positively = to society as a whole.

 

[Mole]

It is really impossible to answer this question without knowing the history of childhood.

But we have a deep neurosis against learning the history of childhood and by filling the gap with cliches and commonly accepted ideas as though they are brand new.

In particular the history of childhood has taken a radical turn recently, but intellectully we act as though nothing has happened. This is the definition of neurosis. And we are all comforted by the fact it is a shared neurosis.

The world of childhood is changing under our feet in prosperous countries, yet we feel nothing.

This is important to serious people on Typology Central because child rearing practices substantially determine our personalities.

 

[Mole]

You're playing around with two concepts here, sexual instinct and reproduction without connecting them. Why has evolution provided us with a sexual instinct and ability to receive sexual gratification (i.e. why does sex feel good?). My intuitive answer (and I think it's supported with research) is that we have a sexual instinct to obtain the pleasure sought in sex for the purpose of reproducing. It's nature's way of 'rewarding' and motivating our species to reproduce. When we satiate our sexual instinct without reproducing (using contraceptive countermeasures) we are merely 'tricking' our bodies into thinking they are reproducing when, in fact, they are not.

I'm not a prude but the visceral and 'naked' purpose of sex is reproduction. Pleasure from it is simply nature's reward.

Nature does nothing. Nature is not a person. Nature is not an agent.

Today we have sex all the time without reproduction.

Nature has no concern for pleasure or reproduction.

Sex makes it difficult for parasites to get a foothold, and sex gives us more adaptable genes. And it is the adaptable who survive.

 

[INTJMom]

Do you think that children provide a certain type of satisfaction that nothing else can? And is this needed for a sense of wholeness? Do people without children feel a lacking and regret not having kids later?

Hi... I know you didn't ask me, but I wanted to answer the question. I hope you don't mind.

For SOME people, yes, I do think having children provides a certain type of satisfaction that nothing else can, especially if having children has been their lifelong dream. Others may find that same sense of satisfaction in other ways, but how would we ever know? It's difficult to compare one person's level of satisfaction to another's.

In my opinion, having children is not essential for attaining a sense of wholeness and every human being on the face of the earth could attain wholeness if they pursued it.

I think some people regret not having children, but I would expect that it is mostly those who wanted them for a very long time. When you're 95 and all your relatives have passed on before you, I suppose it would be easy to say, "I wish I had children to take care of me", but that's a rather selfish reason to suddenly regret not having children.

I am an INTJ. When I was young, I dreamed of finding the man of my dreams and getting married, so I could have that one special person to share my life with, but I did not want children. I was extremely selfish and self-centered and taking care of children seemed like too big of a sacrifice for me. I hated kids and I used to tell people I was NEVER having kids. I DID have a dream and that was to be a rich and famous singer, songwriter, recording artist, so having children would have interfered with my plan.

However, I found the man of my dreams and we got married and after a few years, my heart changed. I began to want children. I have 3 children now, all grown-up, functioning members of society. They are the best thing that has ever happened to me. I used to be afraid kids would ruin my life, but now I believe they made my life worth living.

I don't think everyone would feel the same way about it. Some people may even regret having kids, but that is not what happened in my case.

 

[INTJMom]

Is it crappy that some people think so? Jennifer Aniston doesn't like the speculation about her reproducing, but she still puts it out there that she may become a mother one day.

For The Record

I would like to reply to Jennifer Aniston's assumption:
"...perpetuation of this notion that women are somehow incomplete, unsuccessful, or unhappy if they’re not married with children..."

I don't think such interest necessarily implies those notions.
There is another reason why people would want to know if she's pregnant yet... they love her.
Generally, for a lot of people in the world, getting married and having babies is what people do.
Generally, pregnancy is considered good and happy news.
They genuinely care about her and just want to be there when the good news is announced.

 

[FemMecha]

I've probably already answered in this thread, but I'm at the very end of childbearing years with no children. I don't feel much regret. I don't think people have to have every possible thing in life to feel complete. You can choose how complete you feel to some extent. No one gets it all - even the rich and famous pay a high price and miss out on a lot because of the demands of that path.

 

[Grand Admiral Crunch]

I would like to reply to Jennifer Aniston's assumption:
"...perpetuation of this notion that women are somehow incomplete, unsuccessful, or unhappy if they’re not married with children..."

I don't think such interest necessarily implies those notions.
There is another reason why people would want to know if she's pregnant yet... they love her.
Generally, for a lot of people in the world, getting married and having babies is what people do.
Generally, pregnancy is considered good and happy news.
They genuinely care about her and just want to be there when the good news is announced.

Hadn't considered that. Interesting thoughts. It still seems that such interest perpetuates that idea. They love her and wish for her happiness, so she needs kids. Their idea of happiness is projected onto her, and she feels that pressure. That feels invasive, ime. It is annoying because I might be doing really cool stuff, important and exciting to me, but do you have kids? Because whatever I did was a bunch of shit to them.

I always liked these stories of older women having kids because it meant that I could put it off longer.

 

[INTJMom]

Hadn't considered that. Interesting thoughts. It still seems that such interest perpetuates that idea. They love her and wish for her happiness, so she needs kids. Their idea of happiness is projected onto her, and she feels that pressure. That feels invasive, ime. It is annoying because I might be doing really cool stuff, important and exciting to me, but do you have kids? Because whatever I did was a bunch of shit to them.

I always liked these stories of older women having kids because it meant that I could put it off longer.

Good points.
After I had my first child, as soon as she turned 2, people started asking me when I was having the next one.
I didn't want to get into an argument about why I didn't want another one right away, so I would answer, "I'm looking forward to it."
That would silence them.

 

[SpankyMcFly]

My genes will go down with me, as I've ordered.

@ Thread: Break the cycle, rise above.

 

[Mole]

Physically we complete the gestalt. For instance, there is a hole in our vision but it is invisible to us because we complete the gestalt.

And there is a hole in our psyche which we can't see because we complete the gestalt.

So we perceive in wholes, we perceive in gestalts.

And we deeply resent anyone who points out the holes in our gestalts.

So we don't need to reproduce to feel complete, our whole unconscious is devoted to showing us a complete world.

We now know this is an incomplete picture, and we are constantly repainting the picture to make it complete.

 

[Pionart]

Simple answer:

No, unless you do, but it's still up for debate.

 

[Luv Deluxe]

Ugh. No way is having children the only road to fulfillment. I also don't care for interpretations that those who travel, pursue careers, or engage in "selfish" behaviors are merely doing so to substitute for or otherwise approximate that feeling of completion. Those things are thoroughly rewarding, wonderful goals all on their own. They're worth it if you want them.

If you've always known since day one that you'd like to have a family, then of course you'd feel incomplete if you couldn't achieve that goal. Only then does that logic start to check out for me - the idea that someone might be filling a void with other experiences.

My whole life, I've gotten the usual condescending garbage implying that I'm too young to know my own body and my own desires with regard to not having children. It's been everywhere, from nosy family members to skeptical health care providers, ever since I was a little kid (which I find particularly disturbing - five-year-olds shouldn't be questioned for not playing with infant dolls, for not practicing at being a "mommy").

So I think there's a tendency for others to mistakenly interpret my very strong reactions as some form of rebellion and nothing more. Kind of an, "Oh, she's just pushing against everyone else to get a rise out of them; she'll come around when she meets a nice boy who wants to put a baby in her" outlook. (I have met a nice boy who shares my values, so that's a non-issue.)

You can't require something for happiness and completion if you straight up don't want that thing. Especially if you have extremely negative feelings about that thing.

When I look at babies, small children, family portraits, wedding photographs, etc., at best I feel a whole lotta nothin'. Any natural inclination to have those experiences is absent; the mere idea of having kids feels wrong, so very, very wrong for me. This isn't a question of missing out on something, of not knowing something that I haven't had. It's not for me, and I trust my gut on that completely.

I'm not against people having their own children, however. I don't dislike kids at all. Reproduction feels extremely wrong for me, that's all, but I'm always the one who's got to defend myself. Consequently, I get pretty intense whenever it comes up, haha.

As it is, I have parent friends who've started going to therapy, who've sought sterilization, whose sex lives have deteriorated dramatically, whose intimate relationships have decayed, and who have admitted (with no small amount of embarrassment, like they shouldn't be talking about it at all) that they, in some tiny ways, have actually regretted their decision to have kids. There's always the disclaimer, "I love my son, but...!" And they should love their kids, I'm glad that they do...but regret can indeed occur on both sides of reproductive choice. I think people forget or deny that, because they find ways to carry on.

Nonetheless, I've never asked my friends with kids about why in fuck's name they did such a thing. They've generally managed to adjust, and they're pretty happy overall. I wouldn't want to steer them off that path or challenge who they are as people. Live and let live, maybe? I understand the curiosity about choices like mine, but after a certain point I find myself wondering why any of it matters so much. Just go be happy! Let me be happy! Let's be happy for each other!

Oh, and uh...I know this sounds a bit contentious, but I can't help pointing it out...to those people out there who believe they were once like me, who once thought they never wanted children and then turned around and had them and now they're so, so happy and they're glad they did it: I would argue that we never actually shared the same attitudes on this issue at all. Know how I know that? You went through with it, and you have kids now.

 

[INTJMom]

Ugh. No way is having children the only road to fulfillment. ...

Great points and observations. I agree with what you said.

I think that if someone deep down inside really doesn't want to have kids, then they shouldn't,
and they shouldn't give in to pressure from other people.

I have a son who says he is never having kids.
He may change his mind someday, he may not. It's his choice.
It's not my business to try to convince him to the contrary.
I don't think parenting is "fulfilling" for everyone.

 

[Mole]

Children and the Rennaisance

Having children changes us in so many ways. For instance, almost all parents adore their children, that is why we have laws against nepotism.

So it is natural for parents to think that fulfilment comes from having children.

And to think that children are not fulfilling is entirely unthinkable for parents devoting most of their lives and their energy to their children. And in fact it would be cruel to tell them so.

However there is a tradition in many different cultures of celibacy. And remember, celibacy does not mean chastity, celibacy means not married.

And if not for the celibate we would not have had the scriptoriums in the monasteries and so not had the Renaissance.

 

[1487610420]

Having children changes us in so many ways. For instance, almost all parents adore their children, that is why we have laws against nepotism.

So is natural for parents to think that fulfilment comes from having children.

And to think that children are not fulfilling is entirely unthinkable for parents devoting most of their lives and their energy to their children. And in fact it would be cruel to tell them so.

However there is a tradition in many different cultures of celibacy. And remember, celibacy does not mean chastity, celibacy means not married.

And if not for the celibate we would not have had the scriptoriums in the monasteries and so not had the Renaissance.

celibacy
ˈsɛlɪbəsi/
noun
the state of abstaining from marriage and sexual relations.

chastity
ˈtʃastɪti/
noun
the state or practice of refraining from extramarital, or especially from all, sexual intercourse.
"vows of chastity"

no.

 

[Norrsken]

I'm pregnant.

 

[Grand Admiral Crunch]

I'm pregnant.

Really? Congrats! How far along?

 

[Norrsken]

Really? Congrats! How far along?