Mistyped TypeCentral Members

[Kierva]

I think the value of type is to better understand yourself and other people. If this is a forum for those kinds of conversation, then I don't think that it necessarily requires consent, especially if what's actually being said is not really hurtful. [MENTION=17131]Chanaynay[/MENTION] wasn't saying anything offensive either about Dreamer or about ESFJs.

Fair enough.

The other point is that if Dreamer's experience of being ENFP doesn't line up with that of Chan's or other ENFPs, then why should they not be able to be upfront about that disconnect? It's not a rejection of Dreamer; it's an affirmation of their own experience.

The reality is that ED and Chay are two different people, with two different upbringings and environments. It is only natural that their experience does not line up. While it is an affirmation of their own experience, it is not objectively in line with what is said about the ENFP type, and what I did in this thread was to show him that that is the case.

Personally, I've been annoyed when I've seen people claiming to be ENTJ more out of a desire for some perceived cache associated with it, then anything to do with how they actually relate to the world. Then becoming hysterical when someone dare questions it. It defeats the whole point of self-exploration, and becomes more about...idk. Something else. I just don't think it serves anyone, really.

I got you, and I've been on both sides of the fence. I remember being hysterical a long while back because it was like an attack at my character, but I didn't have enough knowledge to apply to myself and present it in a clear and comprehensive argument.

In this case, I don't think ED is claiming to be ENFP out of "some perceived cache associated with it". If you've watched his videos and paid attention to what he says, you would see that it is consistent with NeFi/, and I'd argue that him making these endless videos about himself is a form of self-exploration.

I understand that not everyone has time to go watch his (or anyone else's videos that they don't truly care about), but making misplaced assertions is unjust to me. He is someone that I have known and had heart-to-heart talks with, and I think these assertions are out of hand. I was simply doing my service as a friend to stick out for him, because I'm sure you know, people can be viciously hive-minded when it comes to asserting what they think is someone else's type.

(This isn't shade at you, btw. You seem to be on the level.)

On the level of?

 

[Starry]

I will definitely keep these thoughts in mind and look into e2 some more.

Regarding my image, I'm not sure if I value people having a collective understanding of my image, but comes from a deeper core issue of being accepted or at least feeling acceptance from others. This actually ties into what [MENTION=7254]Wind Up Rex[/MENTION] mentioned of not appreciating those that choose a type because of certain type biases, and really, that's actually what grates me most about some of the comments made of my typing since I get the feeling that there is an implied bias I have against some types or functions which couldn't be further from the truth. No matter how often I state this, it seems some people use that argument for "allowing" me to see ESFJ in a positive light. I don't need that at all, I have nothing against it.

To get back to this deeper core insecurity of mine, I feel this is perhaps where this Fe is coming from since I approach others with that value held tightly. From multiple personal experiences growing up, I've felt ostracized and put down for who I was. I felt so low and disgusted with myself. Looking at who I am today, I almost take a sort of pride, though that's not quite the word, in my acceptance of other's no matter their flaws. And it isn't fake at all. Come to me with any taboo interests and I would look at you the same as I would anyone else. So when people call into question my image or typing, and it feels like the reason they are, is because they see me as carrying this bias against a type or function, that's when it goes beyond irritating for me and downright offensive.

That's as personal as I'll leave it for the time being since this subject is really hard for me to talk about. Admittedly I started getting emotional towards the end of that last paragraph.

But this reply isn't solely in response to you, as it's also more a general statement I wanted to get out there. I don't want people to feel like they can't comment on my type anymore because they don't want to hurt my feelings or whatever. There are just sides to me that I know can explain where many of the things everyone is picking up on and be done with it in a heartbeat, but, that's where I stop and it gets too personal to disclose.

But again, I'll take your words and [MENTION=17131]Chanaynay[/MENTION]'s to heart, and I know just how long your posts must've taken, I've written my fair share of short novellas on the forum. The interesting thing I've been thinking about regarding my enneagram typing is that I wonder if I'm even a 7. Yes, I seek out experience and love to distract myself, but is that my core fear in of itself or is it just a response from something else that looks like a 7 on the surface. That's what I'm really interested in these days.

I feel like reading this post forever. Like I've attempted to explain to you...I envy the way you are able to connect with others in what feels like a true human exchange. I will come back but just wanted to quickly say that I've never gotten the sense from you that you were rejecting of the thought of other types...because of those others types (did I say that right?) no, never. You can tell that never mattered to you...and I have met people like that.

 

[HongDou]

Regarding my image, I'm not sure if I value people having a collective understanding of my image, but comes from a deeper core issue of being accepted or at least feeling acceptance from others. This actually ties into what [MENTION=7254]Wind Up Rex[/MENTION] mentioned of not appreciating those that choose a type because of certain type biases, and really, that's actually what grates me most about some of the comments made of my typing since I get the feeling that there is an implied bias I have against some types or functions which couldn't be further from the truth. No matter how often I state this, it seems some people use that argument for "allowing" me to see ESFJ in a positive light. I don't need that at all, I have nothing against it.

To get back to this deeper core insecurity of mine, I feel this is perhaps where this Fe is coming from since I approach others with that value held tightly. From multiple personal experiences growing up, I've felt ostracized and put down for who I was. I felt so low and disgusted with myself. Looking at who I am today, I almost take a sort of pride, though that's not quite the word, in my acceptance of other's no matter their flaws. And it isn't fake at all. Come to me with any taboo interests and I would look at you the same as I would anyone else. So when people call into question my image or typing, and it feels like the reason they are, is because they see me as carrying this bias against a type or function, that's when it goes beyond irritating for me and downright offensive.

What is ironic about all this imo is that I think a lot of the ESFJ suggestions you've received have been less rooted in the idea that you're carrying an inherent bias towards ESFJ and that is the reason why you're avoiding it (and I'm sure you yourself know this and this defensive trigger is more of an unconscious reaction for you) and moreso because you're so driven and obstinate about making sure that you're always inclusive, accepting, and understanding of others. That is one of the cornerstones of ESFJ imo, so with what you said here I'm not surprised why people can see you this way. And it sounds like you've already picked up on this as well if I'm reading what you've said correctly.

I also think what [MENTION=7254]Wind Up Rex[/MENTION] said wasn't specifically referring to you, but just addressing Kierva's defensiveness and the idea nowadays that questioning type is a hot button issue. When people get upset about having their type or others' types questioned it just kind of defeats the purpose of self-discovery and exploration. In the end it's good to explore other possibilities, because you get to learn about other sides of yourself even if they end up not being related to the possibility you started examining in the first place. I'm sure a lot of TypeC members are familiar with all those times in the past I was flip-flopping my type around because of so many forum members suggesting I go one way or the other, and while right now I'm back where I started when I actually first took the MBTI/Enneagram/Instinct Variant tests I learned a lot more about myself because of all those changes. I'll forever be grateful to this forum for that. I mean if you look at the first few pages of this thread you can see how a lot more casual everything is. I don't know how or when this defensiveness surrounding type identification popped up but all it seems to be doing ime is inhibit the process of reflection and self-understanding and I think that's the phenomenon she was getting at.

 

[Starry]

Sorry [MENTION=25763]Enthusiastic_Dreamer[/MENTION] I might have to pop in and out with thoughts as they come. I hope that you don't mind. Below are not arguments for your type but some thoughts that came to mind when I considered your experience here.

Some of your experience of people trying to *sell* you on ESFJ undoubtedly stems from a group of people here at TypoC kinda collectively taking a good hard look at the various stereotypes this type is plagued with and saying "wow, no wonder there are no ESFJs on the internet." I mean, when I read the ESFJ descriptions I don't even know what the hell I'm looking at. Like, with some of the really bad ones I'm almost thinking "church lady" <-which is a massive crime when I think about the actual SFJs I've encountered in my life. I've mentioned this before a few times but I used to work at a place that incorporated MBTI into everything it seemed and so I knew who all the SFJs were and while there seemed to be a great deal of variation (I didn't understand enneagram at this time)...even still no one really resembled those descriptions in any meaningful way that I could ever tell. And so I think people do feel compelled to try and sell it to people in ways they would never with other types..."no, seriously, seriously ESFJ?...they are like SO COOL and stuff...just whatever you do don't read about them...just take my word for it heh *nervous*"

With me, with this being a common mistype for a variety of reasons there is a feeling of unfairness really...it is unintentional but there is a sense in me of wanting to hurry up and give credit where credit is due. The old timers here get it...but the ESFJ 2 has been making the ENFP 7 look better than we are for a very long time haha! No, we are being ascribed a degree of humanity that I don't feel we deserve. I care deeply for many people and in many ways I've spent my lifetime trying to serve others...but I keep myself at a hidden distance. I struggle to truly connect with others due to my fear of commitment and obligation. Of being overwhelmed by my emotions. Of truly allowing myself to become dependent on another person and having that taken from me...it would be my death. A deprivation I would not return from (I struggle when I don't connect fully with others so...) My point is that I can see what looks like the same between these two types but I'm the fraud. In the end I do not want to be accepted. So you probably experience that push as well. It's not intentional.

 

[Dreamer]

What is ironic about all this imo is that I think a lot of the ESFJ suggestions you've received have been less rooted in the idea that you're carrying an inherent bias towards ESFJ and that is the reason why you're avoiding it (and I'm sure you yourself know this and this defensive trigger is more of an unconscious reaction for you) and moreso because you're so driven and obstinate about making sure that you're always inclusive, accepting, and understanding of others. That is one of the cornerstones of ESFJ imo, so with what you said here I'm not surprised why people can see you this way. And it sounds like you've already picked up on this as well if I'm reading what you've said correctly.

I also think what [MENTION=7254]Wind Up Rex[/MENTION] said wasn't specifically referring to you, but just addressing Kierva's defensiveness and the idea nowadays that questioning type is a hot button issue. When people get upset about having their type or others' types questioned it just kind of defeats the purpose of self-discovery and exploration. In the end it's good to explore other possibilities, because you get to learn about other sides of yourself even if they end up not being related to the possibility you started examining in the first place. I'm sure a lot of TypeC members are familiar with all those times in the past I was flip-flopping my type around because of so many forum members suggesting I go one way or the other, and while right now I'm back where I started when I actually first took the MBTI/Enneagram/Instinct Variant tests I learned a lot more about myself because of all those changes. I'll forever be grateful to this forum for that. I mean if you look at the first few pages of this thread you can see how a lot more casual everything is. I don't know how or when this defensiveness surrounding type identification popped up but all it seems to be doing ime is inhibit the process of reflection and self-understanding and I think that's the phenomenon she was getting at.

Oh totally relate to what you've gone through yourself on this forum. Ive always been fairly introspective about things but since coming here I've already learned much more! And I know I'll continue to grow too, it's exciting! Playing with other types helps to find out other sides of me too. I did try on ESFJ for a while, really trying to fit myself to the particular function stacking, and I tried on ENTP and ESFP as well. From those experiences I'd say ESFP felt most natural.

And for what Rex mentioned, I understood she wasn't directly referring to me. I've done this a few times on the forum, but I might take something someone says and it leads to a bunch of other thoughts, and what her comment lead to, was me ultimately exposing a little bit more about myself about where my inclusion cones from. I realize this can be confusing to people that aren't in my head though haha. Trying to be more clear about that too in future posts.

 

[HongDou]

I understand that not everyone has time to go watch his (or anyone else's videos that they don't truly care about), but making misplaced assertions is unjust to me. He is someone that I have known and had heart-to-heart talks with, and I think these assertions are out of hand. I was simply doing my service as a friend to stick out for him, because I'm sure you know, people can be viciously hive-minded when it comes to asserting what they think is someone else's type.

But are they misplaced assertions? I mean even ED is acknowledging that these comments have some validity and they're observations worth considering. I mean the idea that ED is identifying as ENFP for the benefits of the "ENFP image" is definitely not, but no one has really suggested that here? In fact I don't see any observations about what his image serves for him and rather only see suggestions for an image type (and since image types aren't necessarily about actual image but rather their sense of identity I think this does not qualify as the former) and a comment about his insecurity in how he's perceived on the forum which he himself has acknowledged.

Like [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] said, you don't need to intimately understand someone to be able to offer valid type suggestions. I mean you can disagree with my claims and think they're erroneous if you want (although I think ED are in the same line of thinking with his comments about deeply caring about being deeply accepting and nonjudgmental aligning with my ideas that he wants to bring a certain atmosphere to others), but it doesn't invalidate these observations. As I recall you and I often had heart-to-hearts and sometimes if I brought up someone challenging me on the forum (type-related or not) you would dismiss them and provide me reassurance as well, and I definitely remember you jumping to my defense once or twice as well. I'm not sure what you and ED talk about and I definitely don't blame him for your sudden dislike of me but to claim you jumped in because people can be "viciously assertive" or whatever is just doing a little too much. I have no ill intent against ED here, and I only recall questioning his type to him once or twice. Plus, if you look at that thread you linked you can see people proclaiming him as a "prime example of ENFPs" and things of that nature. I'm not saying these members in particular are hive-minded but it's not like he doesn't have people besides you supporting his current typing and there's only people chasing after him telling him he's an ESFJ. It's just a suggestion, it's nothing to jump all over as a friend as if you're witnessing some kind of injustice. And like WUR said it's all about self-exploration and nothing to get defensive over.

 

[violet_crown]

The reality is that ED and Chay are two different people, with two different upbringings and environments. It is only natural that their experience does not line up. While it is an affirmation of their own experience, it is not objectively in line with what is said about the ENFP type, and what I did in this thread was to show him that that is the case.

The reason typology is interesting at all is the notion that, regardless of those differences in experience, there will be recognizable similarities between how two people of the same type perceive and relate to the world. For that reason, I can't really buy this. There's all kinds of ways that different types can come to a similar evaluation of a situation, but the distinctive pathways is pretty much the whole point.

In this case, I don't think ED is claiming to be ENFP out of "some perceived cache associated with it".

I think that there is. I think there's a stereotype of ENFPs as accepting and open minded, and ESFJs as close minded and traditional. And I think it screws up people's ability to evaluate themselves. You can be an accepting and open minded ESFJ if that's part of your value set, but it's going to look different than it would coming from an equally accepting and open minded ENFP. What Chan, Starry and others are saying is that Dreamer's version of the traits he says make him the same type, don't mesh with how they'd expect someone who was Ne-Fi to do those things. It's no less valuable or good--just different.

I understand that not everyone has time to go watch his (or anyone else's videos that they don't truly care about), but making misplaced assertions is unjust to me. He is someone that I have known and had heart-to-heart talks with, and I think these assertions are out of hand. I was simply doing my service as a friend to stick out for him, because I'm sure you know, people can be viciously hive-minded when it comes to asserting what they think is someone else's type.

I think you're being a good friend, and I understand the motivation to stick up for someone you care about. I don't think that being closer to Dreamer is going to make you either impartial or unbiased in your assessments of him.

I'd also like to point out that the tenor of this conversation has been pretty far from "vicious".

On the level of?

It's an expression. Basically saying that you seem to be what you say you are. You get it. Etc.

To get back to this deeper core insecurity of mine, I feel this is perhaps where this Fe is coming from since I approach others with that value held tightly. From multiple personal experiences growing up, I've felt ostracized and put down for who I was. I felt so low and disgusted with myself. Looking at who I am today, I almost take a sort of pride, though that's not quite the word, in my acceptance of other's no matter their flaws. And it isn't fake at all. Come to me with any taboo interests and I would look at you the same as I would anyone else. So when people call into question my image or typing, and it feels like the reason they are, is because they see me as carrying this bias against a type or function, that's when it goes beyond irritating for me and downright offensive.

That's as personal as I'll leave it for the time being since this subject is really hard for me to talk about. Admittedly I started getting emotional towards the end of that last paragraph.

I really appreciate what you've shared here. Fwiw, the INFJ I'm seeing had a rough time growing up as well. He dealt with bullying and also just felt generally alienated for most of his life. He's one of the more accepting people I've ever met.

As I mentioned above, my point was not exactly that you hate Fe-types so you want to be ENFP or think ENFPs are super cool so definitely want to be one, or anything as dismissive as that. My point was that I think that when people being valued seen in a certain way, then taking a type that is closely associated with those traits can sometimes be a shorthand for that.

It would be like if I typed myself as a 5w6 because I really highly valued my intellect, and got really offended if someone said that I was actually a 1w9. And I was upset not because they were suggesting a type they thought might be a better fit for me as a whole, but because I felt that by pointing to those other traits, they were trying to deny how intellectual I was.

 

[violet_crown]

But are they misplaced assertions? I mean even ED is acknowledging that these comments have some validity and they're observations worth considering. I mean the idea that ED is identifying as ENFP for the benefits of the "ENFP image" is definitely not, but no one has really suggested that here? In fact I don't see any observations about what his image serves for him and rather only see suggestions for an image type (and since image types aren't necessarily about actual image but rather their sense of identity I think this does not qualify as the former) and a comment about his insecurity in how he's perceived on the forum which he himself has acknowledged.

In fairness to [MENTION=11928]Kierva[/MENTION], I did basically say that. Just based on my conversations with Dreamer in the past, and even his response here. I just get the feeling from the way he's emphasized certain traits of open mindedness and acceptances that he's saying indirectly that an ESFJ is less likely to have those traits. Or if they do exhibit them, they're put on somehow.

Looking at who I am today, I almost take a sort of pride, though that's not quite the word, in my acceptance of other's no matter their flaws. And it isn't fake at all. Come to me with any taboo interests and I would look at you the same as I would anyone else.

That could 100% be a misread, but I do think it plays a role.

 

[HongDou]

In fairness to [MENTION=11928]Kierva[/MENTION], I did basically say that. Just based on my conversations with Dreamer in the past, and even his response here. I just get the feeling from the way he's emphasized certain traits of open mindedness and acceptances that he's saying indirectly that an ESFJ is less likely to have those traits. Or if they do exhibit them, they're put on somehow.



That could 100% be a misread, but I do think it plays a role.

Ah I saw that comment more as a way to explain that he is naturally accepting and open-minded, and those suggesting ESFJ/2 as a way to take away from the "natural" part of those qualities and subsequently implying that his behavior is more controlled than he leads on are what leads to his aggravation and sensitivities regarding his sense of identity in relation to forum perception, unrelated to whether he himself thinks ESFJ/2 is more controlled and less natural or not. [MENTION=25763]Enthusiastic_Dreamer[/MENTION] if you feel like clearing up these interpretations of your comments feel free to chime in.

I personally think regardless of what his True Typeâ„¢ is he doesn't refute ESFJ/support ENFP just for the ENFP image. In general, I 100% agree with you that there's a perceived cache associated with the two types and that "there's a stereotype of ENFPs as accepting and open minded, and ESFJs as close minded and traditional. And it screws up people's ability to evaluate themselves." The entire people's ENFP thread created by Starry that I contributed to kind of hones in on that idea. But in Dreamer's case with what he's said about caring deeply about being an accepting and tolerant person, and also given the times I recall he's talked about his friends who are SFJs, I'm not sure if I'd say he's subconsciously denying that SFJs are any "less" of those qualities because that'd go against his values overall. But then again I also don't know any other explanation he has for denying ESFJ, although I wouldn't be surprised if the whole "super extrovert" stereotype played a role in it. ED feel free to chime in as well because I don't know you're subconscious so I can only speculate.

Circling back to these values overall, I think the fact that he makes a point of being open-minded and accepting is just another way you could point to ESFJ. [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] can disagree with me if she wants but I don't believe ENFPs "make a point" of really doing anything regarding their values...or just in general. Like how [MENTION=24479]themightyfetus[/MENTION] said she wanted one day to give speeches and uplift people because that's a goal that fulfills her, it strikes me as the same kind of nature where they specifically set out to interact with the world in this way because that's what feels right with them. With ENFPs...I feel like the way we interact with the world is a lot less consistent. Hell even the way I go about foruming on here is inconsistent

 

[Kierva]

But are they misplaced assertions?

Yes.

I mean even ED is acknowledging that these comments have some validity and they're observations worth considering. I mean the idea that ED is identifying as ENFP for the benefits of the "ENFP image" is definitely not, but no one has really suggested that here? In fact I don't see any observations about what his image serves for him and rather only see suggestions for an image type (and since image types aren't necessarily about actual image but rather their sense of identity I think this does not qualify as the former) and a comment about his insecurity in how he's perceived on the forum which he himself has acknowledged.

Sure he takes them into consideration, but you think he's going to change his mind on his type?

Like [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] said, you don't need to intimately understand someone to be able to offer valid type suggestions. I mean you can disagree with my claims and think they're erroneous if you want (although I think ED are in the same line of thinking with his comments about deeply caring about being deeply accepting and nonjudgmental aligning with my ideas that he wants to bring a certain atmosphere to others), but it doesn't invalidate these observations.

And disagree I have. Did I explicitly say that your observations are invalid? I don't think so?

As I recall you and I often had heart-to-hearts and sometimes if I brought up someone challenging me on the forum (type-related or not) you would dismiss them and provide me reassurance as well, and I definitely remember you jumping to my defense once or twice as well.

What has happened in the past is behind us, and times have changed.

I'm not sure what you and ED talk about and I definitely don't blame him for your sudden dislike of me but to claim you jumped in because people can be "viciously assertive" or whatever is just doing a little too much.

He has nothing to do with my "dislike" of you. Since when have I explicitly said on this forum that I "dislike" you?

I have no ill intent against ED here, and I only recall questioning his type to him once or twice. Plus, if you look at that thread you linked you can see people proclaiming him as a "prime example of ENFPs" and things of that nature. I'm not saying these members in particular are hive-minded but it's not like he doesn't have people besides you supporting his current typing and there's only people chasing after him telling him he's an ESFJ. It's just a suggestion, it's nothing to jump all over as a friend as if you're witnessing some kind of injustice. And like WUR said it's all about self-exploration and nothing to get defensive over.

The thing is, I have witnessed people getting hive-minded over things like these. One of the members here have caused him emotional pain because this person kept asserting the ESFJ claim, and a few others have jumped on that bandwagon as well, causing him to be unsure of himself whenever he wants to post anything. Do you think that's a healthy way to grow, especially when the man himself is trying to?

The reason typology is interesting at all is the notion that, regardless of those differences in experience, there will be recognizable similarities between how two people of the same type perceive and relate to the world. For that reason, I can't really buy this. There's all kinds of ways that different types can come to a similar evaluation of a situation, but the distinctive pathways is pretty much the whole point.

Apologies if I was unclear in what I meant. What I mean was that, yes, while they have the same types, MBTI/Socionics cannot explain the differences in upbringing and experience, which I think colors the type of ENFPs they are. MBTI/Socionics can only explain cognition, and I did say that his videos objectively exhibit him using NeFi/.

I think that there is. I think there's a stereotype of ENFPs as accepting and open minded, and ESFJs as close minded and traditional. And I think it screws up people's ability to evaluate themselves. You can be an accepting and open minded ESFJ if that's part of your value set, but it's going to look different than it would coming from an equally accepting and open minded ENFP. What Chan, Starry and others are saying is that Dreamer's version of the traits he says make him the same type, don't mesh with how they'd expect someone who was Ne-Fi to do those things. It's no less valuable or good--just different.

But if you take away all the fluff, colors and wrappings, you would see that the way he acts or thinks, is NeFi. I feel that some assessments aren't true to the definitions, and in my eyes, this is one of them.

I think you're being a good friend, and I understand the motivation to stick up for someone you care about. I don't think that being closer to Dreamer is going to make you either impartial or unbiased in your assessments of him.

Everyone has their own biases when it comes to typing. It's a matter of how biased/unbiased you are. I have tried to present my assessment as objectively as possible, using the words that he said and matching my knowledge with it. How biased you think it is, is up to you to decide.

I'd also like to point out that the tenor of this conversation has been pretty far from "vicious".

This conversation? Definitely not. But other conversations, they can and have been.

It's an expression. Basically saying that you seem to be what you say you are. You get it. Etc.

No, I don't get it. I'm not a westerner and here in Singapore I have never heard that expression being used here. Language here is more utilitarian.

But thank you for pasting that definition. It will certainly help to understand people when I move to the west.

 

[violet_crown]

Ah I saw that comment more as a way to explain that he is naturally accepting and open-minded, and those suggesting ESFJ/2 as a way to take away from the "natural" part of those qualities and subsequently implying that his behavior is more controlled than he leads on are what leads to his aggravation and sensitivities regarding his sense of identity in relation to forum perception, unrelated to whether he himself thinks ESFJ/2 is more controlled and less natural or not. Or that the implication that he's avoiding the type due to its stereotypes is aggravating because he wants to accept all types. [MENTION=25763]Enthusiastic_Dreamer[/MENTION] if you feel like clearing up these interpretations of your comments feel free to chime in.

I personally think regardless of what his True Typeâ„¢ is he doesn't refute ESFJ/support ENFP just for the ENFP image. In general, I 100% agree with you that there's a perceived cache associated with the two types and that "there's a stereotype of ENFPs as accepting and open minded, and ESFJs as close minded and traditional. And it screws up people's ability to evaluate themselves." The entire people's ENFP thread created by Starry that I contributed to kind of hones in on that idea. But in Dreamer's case with what he's said about caring deeply about being an accepting and tolerant person, and also given the times I recall he's talked about his friends who are SFJs, I'm not sure if I'd say he's subconsciously denying that SFJs are any "less" of those qualities because that'd go against his values overall. But then again I also don't know any other explanation he has for denying ESFJ, although I wouldn't be surprised if the whole "super extrovert" stereotype played a role in it. ED feel free to chime in as well because I don't know you're subconscious so I can only speculate.

Circling back to these values overall, I think the fact that he makes a point of being open-minded and accepting is just another way you could point to ESFJ. [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] can disagree with me if she wants but I don't believe ENFPs "make a point" of really doing anything regarding their values...or just in general. Like how [MENTION=24479]themightyfetus[/MENTION] said she wanted one day to give speeches and uplift people because that's a goal that fulfills her, it strikes me as the same kind of nature where they specifically set out to interact with the world in this way because that's what feels right with them. With ENFPs...I feel like the way we interact with the world is a lot less consistent. Hell even the way I go about foruming on here is inconsistent

I understand what you're saying. This is all really well reasoned, but I think I'm hitting my rumination limit lol. Te-doms can only think so much about a topic before we have to go lay down or phone a friend or whatever.

Honestly, I think [MENTION=25763]Enthusiastic_Dreamer[/MENTION] is wonderful. He's a genuinely kind spirit and a good person. For those reasons, I don't care about his type one way or the other. Whatever he is. He's doing his best and seems to make a conscious effort to leave things better than he found them. Whatever bin that leaves him in is a good bin and I hope he sticks with it.

No, I don't get it. I'm not a westerner and here in Singapore I have never heard that expression being used here. Language here is more utilitarian.

But thank you for pasting that definition. It will certainly help to understand people when I move to the west.

So serious.

No, I'm saying that saying someone is "on the level" means "they get it". They have insight into something that shows they really understand it, and so you can trust what they say about that subject.

Unrelated, but is it true that you can't chew gum in public in Singapore?

 

[Kierva]

So serious.

No, I'm saying that saying someone is "on the level" means "they get it". They have insight into something that shows they really understand it, and so you can trust what they say about that subject.

Unrelated, but is it true that you can't chew gum in public in Singapore?

Correct. They outlawed it* in the 80s because it was dirtying the roads and sticking on people's shoes, and because of that (among many other reasons like hefty fines for spitting and littering) it gives Singapore its sterile reputation.

 

[HongDou]

Sure he takes them into consideration, but you think he's going to change his mind on his type?

He doesn't have to, but do you think people can only bring up observations to him

And disagree I have. Did I explicitly say that your observations are invalid? I don't think so?

Just above you said they were misplaced and spoke as if they carried no weight because you talked about how intimately you knew him.

He has nothing to do with my "dislike" of you. Since when have I explicitly said on this forum that I "dislike" you?

You called me and Starry empty vessels for not contributing to your own type thread with full-fledged analyses. I didn't get a "like" or "neutral" impression from that.

The thing is, I have witnessed people getting hive-minded over things like these. One of the members here have caused him emotional pain because this person kept asserting the ESFJ claim, and a few others have jumped on that bandwagon as well, causing him to be unsure of himself whenever he wants to post anything. Do you think that's a healthy way to grow, especially when the man himself is trying to?

I'm not aware of how far this "harassment" (not sure what to call it) has gone because I rarely Vent, but I don't think the actions of members following him around in that way forbids everyone from making a similar assertion...especially since I tried to be pretty gentle since I know he does have these insecurities. A big appeal to this forum is that it's a gateway to provide people a space to reflect and learn more about themselves, and the community itself can play a part in that. People have chased me around calling me ESFP for years, and sometimes when I would post I would post knowing that it'd probably open up doors for people to take advantage of that. But sometimes you just gotta learn to ignore said forces. But like I said I don't know how severely he was bullied and intimidated.

 

[violet_crown]

Correct. They outlawed in the 80s because it was dirtying the roads and sticking on people's shoes, and because of that (among many other reasons like hefty fines for spitting and littering) it gives Singapore its sterile reputation.

I also heard it led to good things for your economy, so more power to you guys.

Anyways. Thanks for indulging my ignorance.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Hmm, well if you wanted more reasons I could outline a few from what I've seen on the forum.

Your interactions tend to go very smoothly. Not to say you go about socializing with a certain "finesse" but I've noticed that even during conflicts with escalating levels of heat you tend to stay in the middle man position in one or two ways - delving into a "bigger picture" problem at large catalyzing the conflict, being playful and joking with others inadvertently helping prevent either side from getting far out of hand, etc. Those with an Fe ego (and ESFJs moreso than ENFJs due to differing interaction styles) value harmonious social interactions, fostering an upbeat and positive emotional environment where people can interconnect with others and communicate with each other. In that way I see you as that same kind of pleasant and tranquil.

In the same way I said in the past that [MENTION=24479]themightyfetus[/MENTION] excels at seeing the world in an optimistic light, I've seen the same kind of rose-tinted view of life come through in some of your posts. I think one time when I was lurking through the random thought thread I liked something you said about how you rediscover who you are when you gaze up at the stars. I think these very romantic portrayals of the world clue me into ESFJ, as a type that values happy and positive environments of course sees the world in a happy and positive light as well. And I think this also relates to what you experience as your Fi going "deep" (although admittedly I've never fully grasped what you meant when you said that haha). iirc you described as your Ne wanting to get to know everything, but your Fi provides accentuates it by warranting further thorough investigation. From an alternative perspective, it could be that wanting to know everything and gaining a deep understanding of it could be more rooted in Fe, as trying to intimately understand so much relates back to interconnecting with others and creating a warm and empathetic atmosphere. And on the flip side, Ne is less like "ooh shiny object" syndrome ( [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] once said she actually finds this symptom more in ExFJs, due to tertiary Pe and to keep the momentum of positive interaction flowing) and actually more disinterested by a surprising amount of what the world has to offer. I don't know about going deep, but I'd say the Ne ego rather latches onto ideas and concepts its engaged by and then seeks a way to bounce ideas off others because it's that building of ideas that is stimulating. So when I hear about the idea of gathering a deeper understanding in relation to one's environment, I think Fe.

And just to pull up a specific quote:



^This is something I've also seen common in ExFJ - stereotyped as "the givers" but I think more than anything else what they give is a sense of value at the expense of their own. I think there is a kind of social anxiety that can exist in Fe types (but especially ESFJ as Si can make them especially anxious about what can go wrong...which is why 6 is probably a common Enneagram typing for both SFJs), so while they grace others with an inherent respect and value they may be hard on themselves because of how much they perceive themselves as not being good enough. I think that's why self-love is a concept that resonates with many ExFJs as its a therapeutic concept to them, and I also think that's why so many ESFJs can misidentify as NFP nowadays as the idea of listening to one's own needs and caring for oneself can seem like Fi from the get-go. In addition the comment itself is...classically e2 at the very least. 2 gives so much love to others, but it stems from a lack of the own absence of love they possess for themselves. And while 2 and 7 are both positive outlook, it manifests differently. In 2, positive outlook manifests in how it influences and relates to its surroundings (much like what I said above about Fe...and its no surprise above all type combinations 2's correlation with Fe has been one of the strongest). On the other hand, 7's positive outlook manifests in the corners it cuts to escape from its own emptiness (the keyword being emptiness rather than shame). And while I could believe the idea of you chasing your own tail in that way, I do also feel a shame or insecurity regarding your sense of identity...and your naturally consistent positive influence in forum interactions is clear to me.

So there are a few reasons I could churn out for you if you were feeling in the dark about these suggestions

I just jumped in here, and am a bottle of white wine in...bear with me, but my ENFP is very much how you describe in your first few paragraphs...kind of jumping in and diffusing with humor a tense situation (to them ).

I think this is very NFP. The ESFJ's I know tend to feed into that in a gimme more good dirt kind of way.

 

[Dreamer]

I just jumped in here, and am a bottle of white wine in...bear with me, but my ENFP is very much how you describe in your first few paragraphs...kind of jumping in and diffusing with humor a tense situation (to them ).

I think this is very NFP. The ESFJ's I know tend to feed into that in a gimme more good dirt kind of way.

Ohh you snagged an ENFP?! I'd love to hear your feedback on my type if you have the time

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Ohh you snagged an ENFP?! I'd love to hear your feedback on my type if you have the time

I will come back to the thread when sober. Been with my ENFP for almost 4 years. He's a 7w6...I know that etype well, some others maybe not so much.

 

[HongDou]

I just jumped in here, and am a bottle of white wine in...bear with me, but my ENFP is very much how you describe in your first few paragraphs...kind of jumping in and diffusing with humor a tense situation (to them ).

Yeah, the situation isn't tense at all to me. I mean it's lively and animated, but I think the interactions between me and ED specifically are pretty fine I have typed out a lot today so let me just quote Jung to further emphasize what I'm getting at:

"The woman of this type follows her feelings as a guide throughout life. As a result of upbringing her feeling has developed into an adjusted function subject to conscious control. Her feelings harmonize with objective situations and general values."

^This is what I mean when I talk about the middle man position he plays, the positive and reciprocative atmosphere he provides to interactions with others, etc...actually wait this quote about sums it up too:

"For this type, it is of the highest importance to establish an intense feeling of rapport with the environment."

I think this is very NFP. The ESFJ's I know tend to feed into that in a gimme more good dirt kind of way.

What do you mean by "gimme more good dirt"?

Also I'm curious how you feel about this thread then, since your husband is very sweet and effusive as you describe: http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...fp-enfj-infj-/80909-esfj-e2-peoples-enfp.html

^Not claiming that ED is an example of this phenomenon tho

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Yeah, the situation isn't tense at all to me. I mean it's lively and animated, but I think the interactions between me and ED specifically are pretty fine I have typed out a lot today so let me just quote Jung to further emphasize what I'm getting at:

"The woman of this type follows her feelings as a guide throughout life. As a result of upbringing her feeling has developed into an adjusted function subject to conscious control. Her feelings harmonize with objective situations and general values."

^This is what I mean when I talk about the middle man position he plays, the positive and reciprocative atmosphere he provides to interactions with others, etc...actually wait this quote about sums it up too:

"For this type, it is of the highest importance to establish an intense feeling of rapport with the environment."



What do you mean by "gimme more good dirt"?

Oh. Not you two personally. Regarding this:

Not to say you go about socializing with a certain "finesse" but I've noticed that even during conflicts with escalating levels of heat you tend to stay in the middle man position in one or two ways - delving into a "bigger picture" problem at large catalyzing the conflict, being playful and joking with others inadvertently helping prevent either side from getting far out of hand, etc. Those with an Fe ego (and ESFJs moreso than ENFJs due to differing interaction styles) value harmonious social interactions, fostering an upbeat and positive emotional environment where people can interconnect with others and communicate with each other. In that way I see you as that same kind of pleasant and tranquil.

Was that an ENFP description or an ESFJ one?

I was saying I see this in my ENFP very much! But it's when HE feels tense that he uses humor to diffuse. The situation doesn't have to actually BE negative. Even if I tell him, "hey no worries" he wouldn't hear that and he does it to alleviate HIS anxiety (6 wing).

As far as the "gimme more dirt comment"

I think (sorry, stereotypes) that the ESFJ's I know have never let their Fe values get in the way of some good gossip.

 

[Kierva]

He doesn't have to, but do you think people can only bring up observations to him

What do you think?

Just above you said they were misplaced and spoke as if they carried no weight because you talked about how intimately you knew him.

Did I explicitly say that they carried no weight? No.

You called me and Starry empty vessels for not contributing to your own type thread with full-fledged analyses. I didn't get a "like" or "neutral" impression from that.

Again, did I explicitly mention your name? No.

I'm not aware of how far this "harassment" (not sure what to call it) has gone because I rarely Vent, but I don't think the actions of members following him around in that way forbids everyone from making a similar assertion...especially since I tried to be pretty gentle since I know he does have these insecurities. A big appeal to this forum is that it's a gateway to provide people a space to reflect and learn more about themselves, and the community itself can play a part in that.

What kind of a community adds on confusion to a member's type, especially when it goes against providing "a space to reflect and learn more about themselves"?

People have chased me around calling me ESFP for years, and sometimes when I would post I would post knowing that it'd probably open up doors for people to take advantage of that. But sometimes you just gotta learn to ignore said forces. But like I said I don't know how severely he was bullied and intimidated.

Then shouldn't he ignore you? Or Starry for that matter?