Why are vegan specialty foods more expensive than their counterparts?

[Thalassa]

Usually I really get this... but for all the protesting and flyer handing out and video showing I see vegans do when I'm at major events... No one has even posed the question, "Why don't we make a damn good meatless alternative affordable?" Which is why I'm asking.. I suspect it to be a mentality vs actuality, but maybe there are actual material costs and reasons why meatless meats cost more to produce than meat itself.



Theoretically.



... Right. From an financial perspective. Like I said, for meat eaters, nutrition tends to hold a little less value than I find among vegans... This is true for me as well. My food is not really centered on nutrition (though I do value it and take it into consideration) alone. I'm not alone in that, many meat eaters look at what is cheap, available, easy to prepare, and theeeen if it's healthy then great.

Here's what I'm saying. You have a product that can benefit a large population. But you only market it to a small population. And then you complain the larger population is not using your product to help the environment, or animals, or to destroy industries doing bad things to them, etc. But you aren't marketing it to the demographic. Meatless meats and never going to reach people who aren't already very into nutrition because the reality is the selling point isn't there.. and the selling point for many people is money.







Now here we're cooking with fire.. this is the sort of thing I'm here to discuss. Bad pun intended.
But do these factors justify spending $2-3 per patty on something that costs a fraction of a dollar to make in mass quantities alone? The reality is the materials to make the meats are not adding up in price, with the exception of some very particular ingredients.. but considering I get tofu from asian markets muuuuuch cheaper than other markets, I assume that most of the materials are massively raised in price levels. To compensate everyone involved properly and make things more sustainable.. however vague that term may be? Sure.. but 10x the cost of the materials expensive? Also, 10x is a number I threw out of my ass just now. I didn't do math on it yet.. but I'm pretty sure I make black bean burgers because they're significantly cheaper to produce than regular burgers, not marginally.

Well, I'm not sure if you have ever heard of Loma Linda foods - there's a good bet you haven't unless you live in California, or are vegetarian, or even more likely, a 7th Day Adventist. Their vegan chili is awesome with guacamole and black olives, and their canned big franks in my opinion beat Smart Dogs any day, and they tend to be pretty affordable. Other examples of 7th Day Adventist company is Kelloggs. They make their products fairly affordable. Because of the association with religion rather than secular culture, maybe.

Yes, vegan products can benefit a large population - but veganism has to spread first, and many many people are working on that, including vegan chefs, activists, and even schools. You can't blame a company for being small if they don't have mass appeal yet, and like I have mentioned, part of the reason cheap hamburger is cheap is because of factory farming and pink slime, part of the reason cheap hot dogs are cheap is because they're made of junk fillers.

I had the opportunity to converse with someone from Eastern Europe in my personal blog (which focuses about 75 percent on veganism, and related subjects) and at first I thought he was being difficult, but he was explaining to me that because their food is so pure and humane and all of that, their overall food prices are high. I've also had people from Australia marvel at how cheap American food is...and there's a lot of dirty secrets, not just nutritionally, but ethically, for that low low price.

I do think it's an exaggeration to say vegan products cost ten times as much. I can get a container of organic Westsoy at the dollar store for one dollar. I usually see a package of Tofurky slices costing around 2.50. My favorite vegan fortified pasta sauce with algal oil is only 1.99. At the Latino market, I can get things like hemp or flax seeds for a very reasonable price. Tahini costs almost three dollars less at a Middle Eastern market. Vegans don't have to buy everything organic. ..I get a head of kale for 99 cents. I mean, I know you're talking about things like faux meat and faux cheese, and while some are pricey, store brand organic vegan products exist, like Simple Truth at Ralphs and Kroger. They make chkn patties, meatless crumble, soy milk, and other items. Also, I have pointed out that the "gourmet" Tofurky artisan sausages (the ones that say things like Sage Apple or Italian Sausage) aren't the same thing as a vegan hot dog, and cost about the same as a package of Hebrew Nationals.

I have learned to make nice cream, I don't have to buy Tofutti. You buy a magic bullet, and some day you can make your own vegan cheese, sour cream and pesto. Will I still buy Tofutti sour cream to make stuffed shells if I'm in a hurry? Yes, and you always pay for convenience. I usually don't have to pay more for vegan cheese on my pizza, because I don't eat gluten free crust, when dining out.

Part of it is real though. My favorite veggie burger is Amy's California veggie, and it contains walnuts. Have you ever checked the price of whole walnuts? However, I can get it at Dennys on a whole wheat bun, with fixings and bbq sauce for the same price as a meat eater can eat beef on a white bun. We both have to pay extra for liking sautéed mushrooms.

It's not all bad. It will totally freak you out if you try to live off of only faux meats and frozen vegan meals, but a well informed vegan is a happy vegan.

 

[Thalassa]

To me, the price of anything is a judgement of the seller of how much an item costs, which for some is "the maximum that I can get away with".

With vegan speciality items, it's similar to organic, the customer is more knowledgeable, better educated and tends to be more affluent; the market isn't as competitive as the mainstream either. Here you can comfortably price higher and even further still if you can reassure your customer about the quality of your items.

The reverse of that is also true - you can feed ignorant people any old crap from a completely unethical source if it's cheap.

Eating excessive amounts of meat has long been associated with the wealthy, especially among European aristocracy. Ironically, there's little more entitled than eating a turducken. It dates back centuries, and I have read copies of menus for each class on the Titanic. ..each course for first class was heaps of meat, then down on third class your night meal consisted of bread, cheese, gruel or broth and tea. Of course even third class got some meat at their largest afternoon meal (the working class ate earlier than the wealthy due to rising early )...but the most elitist thing you can do, even still in the world today if you look at wealth on a global scale instead of nationally, is over indulge in meat.

It's true that vegans tend to be more educated, on average, but there are working class vegans and/or vegans on public assistance.

There used to be a balance of things. As recently as World War II, Americans drove less to conserve gasoline for the war effort, ate less meat and even made cakes without eggs or milk. If you asked American people to do the same thing during the wars we have experienced in the 2000's, they'd likely throw their McNuggets at you while peeling out of the parking lot in their SUV.

People like to talk about affluence among vegans. They don't like to acknowledge it on a primary or secondary resource level in themselves.

 

[Betty Blue]

Ive been rattling this in my head all day.

Disclaimer: This is not a statement on vegan lifestyles, vegetarian lifestyles, etc. etc. This is just trying to figure out if this is a profit thing or if there's some understandable mechanisms going on... From the specific perspective of: Vegans trying to convince meat eaters that are fundamentally okay with eating meat to eat less of it with the help of vegan-based meat product substitutions... and people going from vegan lifestyles from meat eating ones that maintain eating meat-like recipes and dishes.

The most common arguments I hear:

- The farming industry is subsidized. This is the most common one...
... To which I'd say ALL farming in America is subsidized, and the reality is? Vegans love to brag about all of the money and environment they're saving.. you're not spending money on feed, on water for the animals themselves, on antibiotics or medicines, on slaughterhouses and their equipment, etc. etc. That's a LOT of money saved there.. It does take more crop to equal the bulk and substance of animal meat's protein and calorie ratios, but then I'm back to the fact farming is a subsidized business no matter which side of it you go into. No google searching has seemed to provide any feedback on specific prices of why the plant matter costs more than the animals do, especially considering the end product at the stores is far cheaper in the produce than the meat sections. Any good useful data on why animals are actually cheaper than vegan meat replacements when it comes to the actual production of the components (versus paying for the ideas/development/experimentation and such) because of the farming subsidies would be useful.. but my searches for it have all come up with vague hippies saying probably this..

- it's a specialty/gourmet item.
... Sure, and those exist in meat-eater lifestyles as well.. but the "cheap" brand of vegan hot dogs do not come anywhere near close to the cheap items for meat eaters. .. It doesn't really make sense to say, "Just replace your hot dog with a can of beans."... Technically meat eaters can replace things as well.. so.. really, hot dog for hot dog, vegan hot dogs are much pricier per pound. I definitely feel like someone creating a vegan steak that even meat eaters can enjoy is worth some serious money for the idea, but it is still pandering to people well off with that... and the reality is, vegan lifestyles aren't going to catch on with poorer people anytime soon because of the lack of variety available to feel 'normal' in situations. You have to be making some bank to be able to throw some vegan dogs on the grill with your meaty counterparts whenever you want... So... the stuff that's pretty normal and standard for meat eaters becomes a special treat for vegans... Maybe that's cool for people prone to being vegan, but looking at it from someone not feeling guilty about eating meat, it seems like a horrible business model for trying to convert others.. I thought the whole idea was to save the environment and animals.. and making things super pricey isn't going to help get that done quick.

- It's a niche market.
... This has some value as well.. but we have soooo many mass producers in the vegan market now-a-days, I feel like this is less and less of an excuse. Vegan/vegetarianism is catching on with people and even though the percentage of full time vegans is veeerry small the people who eat vegetarian dishes is not at all, and in a world of whole foods, vegan meats being in every single grocery store ever, and stuff like that it seems like lots of people are perfectly willing to eat vegan--at times or full time. ... and with mass production, the vegetarian ingredients are cheaper than the meat ingredients.. I see them in the stores all the time. The produce is not the most expensive part of shopping--unless that produce is re-packaged into vegan food.

- Everyone prices up their convenience food.
... Very true. But.. When you have a movement based around the ideas that "if everyone did this we'd help the world" why would you play into that? You can just as easily opt out, still make a decent profit, but have it be affordable enough to cut out yet another excuse people would have to not go vegan.

- Vegan and organic tend to go hand in hand.
... This to me is one of the bigger obstacles. Vegans usually want organic produce for a variety of reasons, and organic is objectively more expensive than non organic farming. So mass producing a non-organic plant matter meat might fall pretty flat on the people who would actually be buying it.. But even with organic food being taken into account, surely it wouldn't raise the price per pound to what it currently is now.. Over $6 per pound for vegan ground beef versus $3-4 per pound for the real deal.

- You can't put a price on health!!!
... You absolutely can, and people do all the time. For me, that price is not $135 for the equivalent of $35 worth of meat. I don't want the discussion to turn to this side of things, because the reality is nutritionists and doctors are torn about the health benefits of not eating meat at all vs not eating as much meat, and people can get veerry bias about this very quickly.

I see a lot of people very quick to try to convince me to go vegetarian or vegan and the environmental or health benefits.. and.. in some ways, I'd probably be willing--but at the end of the day, everything for grocery shopping for me comes down to price. To a lesser extent, the health of the food, the ease of cooking it and how much I'll actually eat it. And at the end of the day, a package of hot dogs from cruel awful facilities that don't give a shit about their beef is 12 cents a dog for me, while vegan hot dogs come in packs of like 5 or 7 (what?!) for $4-6. For someone like me who doesn't feel guilt about eating animals, it just doesn't ever seem practical to do.. Especially with nutritionists torn about whether meat is bad for you or not,

Have to say I agree with Marm on this one. It's a fallacy that vegan foods are super pricey. I will agree that artisan foods/health food store foods are expensive, just like any delicatessen.

If you want cheaper alternatives just look at e.g linda mccartney (check ingredients of individual products). Lots of alternatives now being made that are of equal price or less to good quality dairy counterparts.... e.g those not produced by mass farming and other systems in which quality is substituted with chemicals for taste. The most amazing dairy alternative to cheese is Vio Life, it costs around £2 per pack with is less for the same weight of a 'grass fed' dairy cheese.

It's difficult to understand what the perspective is here as on the one hand it seems you are questioning the food market and on the other it seems you are passively criticising veganism in general.

So to answer your question...

Vegan speciality foods are no more expensive than other 'speciality' foods. The question posing 'as their counterparts' suggests you are comparing to other speciality foods... but i'm not sure you are, which starts the whole debate on an unequal footing.

There are lots of foods that are silly expensive in artisan/health food/delicatessen shops, this includes foods from all over the food spectrum and is not particularly related to vegan foods... it's just one corner of a market which has been pinned every which way. For example there are plenty of 'specialist' butchers.


Edit: A good way to test weather vegan foods are much more expensive than meat foods is to test it in an environment where quality is supposed to be equal... So for this we can try restaurants. Lots of restaurants now offer vegan alternatives on their menu's. You'll find that restaurants that cater to lots of different types of eaters usually have the vegan option at a lower price than meat options.

 

[gromit]

You can buy fake meat from Chinese groceries for way cheaper. Maybe it is made in China.

 

[Thalassa]

Here's Loma Linda:

http://lomalindabrand.com/vegetarian-beef-chicken-pork-and-seafood/

Also, just fyi, you can make delicious vegan tuna sandwiches with jackfruit, nori, and a few other ingredients, which you can buy at an Asian market. There are also recipes for vegan pulled pork.

I usually would never plug a major Corp, like ever, but Kelloggs is a vegetarian company that practices environmental and community responsibility, per their Adventist roots. I pretty much refute any claims anyone would make of "well they do this"...yes they're a major Corp, but compared to a company like Nestle, I'll say it's a better alternative. Kelloggs not only makes breakfast cereal, but owns Gardenburger, and Morningstar Farms. I will clarify though that some of their products contain egg or dairy, while other options are vegan (there are even vegan Pop Tart flavors).

 

[magpie]

Hey Thalassa,

Youre cool and all

But the only reason, the real reason why you are a Vegan

Is that you are not allowed to be a cannibal

eat your heart out jeffrey dahmer

 

[kyuuei]

Have to say I agree with Marm on this one. It's a fallacy that vegan foods are super pricey. I will agree that artisan foods/health food store foods are expensive, just like any delicatessen.

Vegan foods are not pricey in and of themselves, which I think I clearly stated in my OP to start with, as well as my posts along the way mentioning time and again that most of my vegetarian-based foods are made for the price point.

My post and this thread is about vegan faux meats, cheeses, etc. They're considered specialty foods. They are the very first things cut out of the discussion when it comes to making vegan affordable because they are labeled as convenience foods and artisan foods.

My OP is trying to determine if these foods are labeled this way for profit because of the mentality of its market base, or if there are very real reasons behind the price that justifies it outside of the profit margin. The reason I am asking this is because of the perceived desire of wanting to make an impact in the dairy/meat industry. I am more focusing on veganism because vegetarianism is such a gray area with these specialty foods, and because vegans seem to be more socially active in trying to 'take down' the meat industry for their practices.

Vio Life, it costs around £2 per pack with is less for the same weight of a 'grass fed' dairy cheese.

This brand seems to only be in the UK, which may explain why I've never seen it. Still, this brand is pretty good evidence for me. Why is this brand capable of selling a vegan substitute so much cheaper (and on an island country no less) than its American counterparts? Daiya, the biggest american vegan cheese, is $5 for an 8oz package all day long. To me this puts a bit more evidence into the market's mentality camp and less into the artisan-based-sustainability-camp that I was starting to lean towards with marm's reply.

Beast Burgers are $2.50 here. A brand name burger, premade and with a fairly high quality of meat averages out at around $1.16 each. And that's the not-cheap option and going with the not-artisan-but-still-higher-quality-brand. Going with frozen pre-made cheaper burgers with fillers and stuff in them puts the burgers at $0.75 a patty.

It's difficult to understand what the perspective is here as on the one hand it seems you are questioning the food market and on the other it seems you are passively criticising veganism in general.

Again, I did feel like I made my biases very clear in this subject. While I get annoyed at some of the anti-science and forced moralities being thrown my way by vegans, my ultimate and main goal here is to hash out why this faux meat market is not being used as a driver to put a dent into the meat industry vs just being a specialty food for affluent vegans. I'm trying to figure out if there are very real reasons besides a profit margin for the prices of these vegan faux products. To me, if someone wanted to make an impact on the meat industry, this could be a good way to get it done. I never tried any of these products because of their price points until I moved here to Asheville and got to sample things from my vegetarian/vegan friends.. and some of them are damn on point. On point enough that I'd consider eating them full time. But the price point still won't convince me to change over.. and I suspect that to be the case for a lot of American meat eaters.

Vegan speciality foods are no more expensive than other 'speciality' foods. The question posing 'as their counterparts' suggests you are comparing to other speciality foods... but i'm not sure you are, which starts the whole debate on an unequal footing.

Even comparing to higher quality meat products, vegan foods are still higher prices for what is in them (i.e. vegetables) vs the cost of producing meat. I think my OP's information was pulled from vegan sources themselves, wherein vegans are saying their products are more expensive. I also think I addressed the unequal footing as part of why there is a driving price up on faux products.. vegans tend to go to another food entirely when being cheap, vs meat eaters that tend to go for a 'cheaper version' of the same food. And at the end of the day, this is a market ran by vegetarians and vegans.

Edit: A good way to test weather vegan foods are much more expensive than meat foods is to test it in an environment where quality is supposed to be equal... So for this we can try restaurants. Lots of restaurants now offer vegan alternatives on their menu's. You'll find that restaurants that cater to lots of different types of eaters usually have the vegan option at a lower price than meat options.

Vegetarian options I see from time to time at cheaper prices (i.e. cheese enchiladas are $1 cheaper than shrimp or chicken ones at the restaurant I used to frequent), but overall most of the foods are on the same price points--a dollar or so here and there, but it seems to all balance out in price. I did include in the OP a link with a fairly food explanation for why that is.

 

[Betty Blue]

Vegan foods are not pricey in and of themselves, which I think I clearly stated in my OP to start with, as well as my posts along the way mentioning time and again that most of my vegetarian-based foods are made for the price point.

My post and this thread is about vegan faux meats, cheeses, etc. They're considered specialty foods. They are the very first things cut out of the discussion when it comes to making vegan affordable because they are labeled as convenience foods and artisan foods.

My OP is trying to determine if these foods are labeled this way for profit because of the mentality of its market base, or if there are very real reasons behind the price that justifies it outside of the profit margin. The reason I am asking this is because of the perceived desire of wanting to make an impact in the dairy/meat industry. I am more focusing on veganism because vegetarianism is such a gray area with these specialty foods, and because vegans seem to be more socially active in trying to 'take down' the meat industry for their practices.



This brand seems to only be in the UK, which may explain why I've never seen it. Still, this brand is pretty good evidence for me. Why is this brand capable of selling a vegan substitute so much cheaper (and on an island country no less) than its American counterparts? Daiya, the biggest american vegan cheese, is $5 for an 8oz package all day long. To me this puts a bit more evidence into the market's mentality camp and less into the artisan-based-sustainability-camp that I was starting to lean towards with marm's reply.

Beast Burgers are $2.50 here. A brand name burger, premade and with a fairly high quality of meat averages out at around $1.16 each. And that's the not-cheap option and going with the not-artisan-but-still-higher-quality-brand. Going with frozen pre-made cheaper burgers with fillers and stuff in them puts the burgers at $0.75 a patty.



Again, I did feel like I made my biases very clear in this subject. While I get annoyed at some of the anti-science and forced moralities being thrown my way by vegans, my ultimate and main goal here is to hash out why this faux meat market is not being used as a driver to put a dent into the meat industry vs just being a specialty food for affluent vegans. I'm trying to figure out if there are very real reasons besides a profit margin for the prices of these vegan faux products. To me, if someone wanted to make an impact on the meat industry, this could be a good way to get it done. I never tried any of these products because of their price points until I moved here to Asheville and got to sample things from my vegetarian/vegan friends.. and some of them are damn on point. On point enough that I'd consider eating them full time. But the price point still won't convince me to change over.. and I suspect that to be the case for a lot of American meat eaters.



Even comparing to higher quality meat products, vegan foods are still higher prices for what is in them (i.e. vegetables) vs the cost of producing meat. I think my OP's information was pulled from vegan sources themselves, wherein vegans are saying their products are more expensive. I also think I addressed the unequal footing as part of why there is a driving price up on faux products.. vegans tend to go to another food entirely when being cheap, vs meat eaters that tend to go for a 'cheaper version' of the same food. And at the end of the day, this is a market ran by vegetarians and vegans.



Vegetarian options I see from time to time at cheaper prices (i.e. cheese enchiladas are $1 cheaper than shrimp or chicken ones at the restaurant I used to frequent), but overall most of the foods are on the same price points--a dollar or so here and there, but it seems to all balance out in price. I did include in the OP a link with a fairly food explanation for why that is.

The links were in post 4 not the op, idk maybe move them to save repeating yourself, or not.

It's just a bit of an odd angle you have going here... it's like you are mixing several ideas with no real focus.

Vegan processed foods are speciality foods. Other speciality foods are also expensive... though vegan ones are probably not that expensive compared to e.g. speciality meats... I have a butchers local to me called lidgates... C Lidgates Butcher Charcutier

it is a LOT more expensive than vegan alternatives

Frozen: Vegan: World Foods: Ocado

Vegan Friendly Biscuits from GoodnessDirect

even very expensive ones.

Some foods are labelled as 'vegan' and are silly expensive which is usually a marketing ploy for something that was pretty expensive before and has always been vegan. aka jumping on the bandwagon.


I think the market is pretty large and varied. So you might need to be more specific in your argument.

Giraffe is a restaurant who has a lot of different types of foods... their vegan options are cheaper than their meat options...

Main Menu - giraffe

That particular menu does not show all the vegan options, but most of the veggie dishes have a vegan option (e.g. substitute egg for tofu)... and still the same price. I usually swap it out on the 'bowl for the soul' dish-which is awesome... and i also love their superfoods dishes (again still cheaper than meat salads) So really I'm still a bit confused with where you are going and what the point is

Another thing for me to mention is that I don't try to enforce my opinion on anyone... being in a minority (vegan land) there tends to be some kind of expectation that you should be ready for attack and explain yourself... which i don't abide. I used to have that a lot as a kid growing up as a vegetarian in an inner city state school. I have outgrown it and really feel pretty meh towards people who take issue.


Edit: Tofu is often used as a faux meat and is pretty good on price for weight, it cost around £1.50 for nearly 400grams, you can marinade it, i often stir fry it with soy sauce fresh ginger and garlic and it taste awesome. I know you can buy it a lot cheaper too if you buy in bulk, and there are often 2 for 3 deals on it, you can even make it yourself pretty easily compared to processed meats. You won't be able to find any meat with as much natural (not chemically synthed)goodness.

Cauldron Foods Tofu 396G - Groceries - Tesco Groceries


Edit 2: another point is that many processed meat options have a very low amount of meat in them... e.g processed canned sausages are usually only about 4% meat and most of that is offal, the rest will be things like wheat husk etc.

 

[Thalassa]

Vegan foods are not pricey in and of themselves, which I think I clearly stated in my OP to start with, as well as my posts along the way mentioning time and again that most of my vegetarian-based foods are made for the price point.

My post and this thread is about vegan faux meats, cheeses, etc. They're considered specialty foods. They are the very first things cut out of the discussion when it comes to making vegan affordable because they are labeled as convenience foods and artisan foods.

My OP is trying to determine if these foods are labeled this way for profit because of the mentality of its market base, or if there are very real reasons behind the price that justifies it outside of the profit margin. The reason I am asking this is because of the perceived desire of wanting to make an impact in the dairy/meat industry. I am more focusing on veganism because vegetarianism is such a gray area with these specialty foods, and because vegans seem to be more socially active in trying to 'take down' the meat industry for their practices.



This brand seems to only be in the UK, which may explain why I've never seen it. Still, this brand is pretty good evidence for me. Why is this brand capable of selling a vegan substitute so much cheaper (and on an island country no less) than its American counterparts? Daiya, the biggest american vegan cheese, is $5 for an 8oz package all day long. To me this puts a bit more evidence into the market's mentality camp and less into the artisan-based-sustainability-camp that I was starting to lean towards with marm's reply.

Beast Burgers are $2.50 here. A brand name burger, premade and with a fairly high quality of meat averages out at around $1.16 each. And that's the not-cheap option and going with the not-artisan-but-still-higher-quality-brand. Going with frozen pre-made cheaper burgers with fillers and stuff in them puts the burgers at $0.75 a patty.



Again, I did feel like I made my biases very clear in this subject. While I get annoyed at some of the anti-science and forced moralities being thrown my way by vegans, my ultimate and main goal here is to hash out why this faux meat market is not being used as a driver to put a dent into the meat industry vs just being a specialty food for affluent vegans. I'm trying to figure out if there are very real reasons besides a profit margin for the prices of these vegan faux products. To me, if someone wanted to make an impact on the meat industry, this could be a good way to get it done. I never tried any of these products because of their price points until I moved here to Asheville and got to sample things from my vegetarian/vegan friends.. and some of them are damn on point. On point enough that I'd consider eating them full time. But the price point still won't convince me to change over.. and I suspect that to be the case for a lot of American meat eaters.



Even comparing to higher quality meat products, vegan foods are still higher prices for what is in them (i.e. vegetables) vs the cost of producing meat. I think my OP's information was pulled from vegan sources themselves, wherein vegans are saying their products are more expensive. I also think I addressed the unequal footing as part of why there is a driving price up on faux products.. vegans tend to go to another food entirely when being cheap, vs meat eaters that tend to go for a 'cheaper version' of the same food. And at the end of the day, this is a market ran by vegetarians and vegans.



Vegetarian options I see from time to time at cheaper prices (i.e. cheese enchiladas are $1 cheaper than shrimp or chicken ones at the restaurant I used to frequent), but overall most of the foods are on the same price points--a dollar or so here and there, but it seems to all balance out in price. I did include in the OP a link with a fairly food explanation for why that is.

If you will kindly refer back to my more recent posts, Worthington foods and Loma Linda have been making vegan meat analogs since the 1920s. Kelloggs DID make a dent in the meat industry, at one time...people used to eat meat for breakfast every day, even meats you would not think of as breakfast food, and Kelloggs and their competitor Post, brought breakfast cereals to the forefront, at least in the United States. Mr. Kellogg actually had a mission, and he wasn't even vegan. Kelloggs, as I have mentioned, has strengthened the popularity of Gardenburger, by acquiring them. (Morningstar Farms is lacto-ovo). Vegetarians brought breakfast cereal to the Western consciousness, and vegans are doing a lot more now in the secular world to sell meat analogs, but they can't just drop their prices because you want them to...a lot of this stuff is comparable, maybe a dollar more, and you are paying for nutritional quality and ethics. If you want canned, sodium laden non-organic vegan food, Loma Linda has it and has been making it since before my grandfather was born.

If you have a brilliant plan to make a vegan meat analog more affordable, by all means do it...but part of the reason Daiya is pricey, is because it comes closer to real cheese. Tofutti processed vegan cheese slices are a little cheaper, and they're less convincing. Vegan analogs is really a magical industry that requires a great deal of talent - you must not understand the research and creativity required to even make these things. Plus, I also mentioned earlier, things like walnuts are pricey, so is sustainable palm oil, it's not "just vegetables."

 

[Beargryllz]

I respect people more who hunt legally in season than people who eat factory farmed meat. I think invasive species are also a problem, one good example is wild boar, I'd rather someone eat that than a hamburger from the grocery store.

Wild boar is generally and unfortunately garbage and the carcasses usually belong in the trash or for the scavengers. I'll make an exception for the piglets. In general, once a wild animal has been adult-sized for a couple of years, it has accumulated so many parasites and the meat has become so shitty that you shouldn't even bother. It kind of throws my use-every-part-of-the-buffalo mantra out the window, but in my experience you can't cling too hard to any one philosophy without being disappointed sooner or later

It's kind of interesting because a lot of hunters will, for example, be incorrectly targeting those "12 point bucks" when in reality they need to be targeting the younger ones. But, they get their goofy trophy and I get the good venison, so it's all good all around. They're still ridiculously overpopulated in most states, but I do my best.

 

[EJCC]

Really confused by the direction this thread went. Seems like [MENTION=4939]kyuuei[/MENTION] had many legitimate questions that were interpreted as an attack on veganism -- when finding flaws in a system is not attacking so much as looking for areas that could be improved. Diagnosing those problems, in the long run, is good for everyone.

The goal of the thread, per kyuuei, was to discuss why vegan foods -- not to be confused with ingredients for vegan recipes -- are typically more expensive. My initial thought is that the size of the market, the size of the manufacturer, and perhaps a bit of price-gouging (looking at you Whole Foods), are to blame.

Other ideas from this page of the thread that I think are helpful re: getting to the heart of the problem:
[MENTION=6877]Thalassa[/MENTION]:

If you have a brilliant plan to make a vegan meat analog more affordable, by all means do it...but part of the reason Daiya is pricey, is because it comes closer to real cheese. Tofutti processed vegan cheese slices are a little cheaper, and they're less convincing. Vegan analogs is really a magical industry that requires a great deal of talent - you must not understand the research and creativity required to even make these things. Plus, I also mentioned earlier, things like walnuts are pricey, so is sustainable palm oil, it's not "just vegetables."

[MENTION=9160]HelenOfTroy[/MENTION]

Some foods are labelled as 'vegan' and are silly expensive which is usually a marketing ploy for something that was pretty expensive before and has always been vegan. aka jumping on the bandwagon.

The more the market assumes that vegans are all willing to pay more money for those products -- and the fewer vegans there are in America -- the more expensive these foods will be. Considering how much cheaper chia seeds, quinoa, etc., have gotten since they became trendy, it's not unheard of that the same thing could happen with vegan food. Especially if somewhere like Trader Joe's tried it out.

 

[Betty Blue]

Really confused by the direction this thread went. Seems like [MENTION=4939]kyuuei[/MENTION] had many legitimate questions that were interpreted as an attack on veganism -- when finding flaws in a system is not attacking so much as looking for areas that could be improved. Diagnosing those problems, in the long run, is good for everyone.

The goal of the thread, per kyuuei, was to discuss why vegan foods -- not to be confused with ingredients for vegan recipes -- are typically more expensive. My initial thought is that the size of the market, the size of the manufacturer, and perhaps a bit of price-gouging (looking at you Whole Foods), are to blame.

Other ideas from this page of the thread that I think are helpful re: getting to the heart of the problem:
[MENTION=6877]Thalassa[/MENTION]:

[MENTION=9160]HelenOfTroy[/MENTION]


The more the market assumes that vegans are all willing to pay more money for those products -- and the fewer vegans there are in America -- the more expensive these foods will be. Considering how much cheaper chia seeds, quinoa, etc., have gotten since they became trendy, it's not unheard of that the same thing could happen with vegan food. Especially if somewhere like Trader Joe's tried it out.

I would agree if there were not cheap vegan alternatives... it's just like any other niche market, you will get areas that use it for higher prices... you get it with 'organic' foods too... even when said foods have always been organic... But it's just one part of a market not the entire market... the same can be said for 'health' foods with things like speciality oils... coconut water is a very recent fad with single litres fetching £3-4 uk pounds... silly when considering coconut milk is only £1 for a litre.

I just don't think it's particularly vegan foods... it's fad foods and yes some vegan foods fall into that... but lots don't too... like the examples that Marm and I cited...

It's just very frustrating seeing the same lame arguments over and over again... this is where the frustration comes from. It's a perceived laziness and non self education in terms of what is available. It becomes especially annoying when repeating yourself to the same people.

 

[EJCC]

I would agree if there were not cheap vegan alternatives... it's just like any other niche market, you will get areas that use it for higher prices... you get it with 'organic' foods too... even when said foods have always been organic... But it's just one part of a market not the entire market... the same can be said for 'health' foods with things like speciality oils... coconut water is a very recent fad with single litres fetching £3-4 uk pounds... silly when considering coconut milk is only £1 for a litre.

I just don't think it's particularly vegan foods... it's fad foods and yes some vegan foods fall into that... but lots don't too... like the examples that Marm and I cited...

It's just very frustrating seeing the same lame arguments over and over again... this is where the frustration comes from. It's a perceived laziness and non self education in terms of what is available. It becomes especially annoying when repeating yourself to the same people.

Would it be fair to say "it's hard to find inexpensive vegan specialty food", instead of "vegan specialty food is expensive"?

The impression I'm getting from what you and Thalassa have been saying is that inexpensive vegan specialty food is out there, but it takes some research to find out where to buy it.

 

[Betty Blue]

Would it be fair to say "it's hard to find inexpensive vegan specialty food", instead of "vegan specialty food is expensive"?

The impression I'm getting from what you and Thalassa have been saying is that inexpensive vegan specialty food is out there, but it takes some research to find out where to buy it.

I don't think it takes a great deal of research or that it is particularly hard to find. All you have to do is google 'cheap vegan food'... you will find a vast array of alternatives. There will be some areas that it is harder to find that others... for examples countries with a very heavy emphasis on dairy intake with little available for vegans... some Mediterranean countries have less available for vegans especially in small towns... still though a visit to a larger town once a month should see you straight.

From wikipedia...

"Into the mainstream (2010s)[edit]
Further information: List of vegans
chart
Interest in veganism in the 2010s was reflected in increased page views for the topic on Wikipedia.[61]
The vegan diet became more mainstream in the 2010s.[18] Chain restaurants began marking vegan items on their menus, and supermarkets improved their selection of vegan processed food.[62] The global mock-meats market increased by 18 percent between 2005 and 2010,[63] and in the US by eight percent between 2012 and 2015 to $553 million a year.[64] In the UK the plant milk market increased by 155 percent in two years, from 36 million litres in 2011 to 92 million in 2013.[65] The European Parliament defined the meaning of vegan for food labels in 2010, in force as of 2015.[61][66]

Celebrities, athletes and politicians adopted vegan diets, some seriously, some part-time.[67] In recent years, some in America have promoted veganism as "glamorous" and trendy, to counter the image of self-deprivation projected by vegan straight edges and animal rights activists.[68] The idea of the "flexi-vegan" gained currency; in his book VB6 (2013), New York Times food columnist Mark Bittman recommended sticking to a vegan diet before 6 pm.[69] De Vegetarische Slager, the first known vegetarian butcher shop, selling mock meats, opened in the Netherlands in 2010.[63][70] In 2011 Europe's first vegan supermarkets appeared in Germany – Vegilicious in Dortmund[71] and Veganz in Berlin and elsewhere.[69] In 2013 the Oktoberfest in Munich, traditionally a meat-heavy affair, offered vegan dishes for the first time in its 200-year history.[72] America's first known vegan butcher's, the Herbivorous Butcher, opened in Minneapolis in 2016.[64][73]

In Israel, interest in veganism surged in recent years, with an estimated 5% of Israelis identifying as vegan in 2015, approximately double the figure in 2010.[74] The phenomenon has been attributed to a 2012 visit by abolitionist activist Gary Yourofsky, who frequently compares the treatment of animals to the Holocaust.[75][76] Following a protest in 2015, the Israeli army was forced to make special provisions for vegan soldiers, including non-leather boots and wool-free berets.[77] Veganism also became popular among Israeli Arabs, leading to collaborations between Jewish and Arab animal rights activists.[78]

Increasing interest in veganism has prompted criticism and backlash from non-vegans. Critics of veganism have questioned the evolutionary legitimacy and health effects of a vegan diet, and pointed to longstanding philosophical traditions which held that man is superior to the other animals.[79] Celebrity chef Anthony Bourdain has compared vegans to the militant group Hezbollah.[80]"

 

[kyuuei]

I would agree if there were not cheap vegan alternatives... it's just like any other niche market, you will get areas that use it for higher prices... you get it with 'organic' foods too... even when said foods have always been organic... But it's just one part of a market not the entire market... the same can be said for 'health' foods with things like speciality oils... coconut water is a very recent fad with single litres fetching £3-4 uk pounds... silly when considering coconut milk is only £1 for a litre.

I just don't think it's particularly vegan foods... it's fad foods and yes some vegan foods fall into that... but lots don't too... like the examples that Marm and I cited...

It's just very frustrating seeing the same lame arguments over and over again... this is where the frustration comes from. It's a perceived laziness and non self education in terms of what is available. It becomes especially annoying when repeating yourself to the same people.

I'm sure it can be quite frustrating to repeat the same things over and over again.. but. You walked into my thread. Either you gotta be okay with saying the things you already know, or just don't bother. No one is forcing this down your throat.

I see what I think is a good idea as a meat-eater not-at-all in the vegan world and ask why it seems the concept is all at odds (the concept of impacting the meat-and-dairy market + the fake meat market being driven higher), and I get a lot of name-calling and blame for being the stupid, uncivilized non-vegan asking dumb questions.

Would it be fair to say "it's hard to find inexpensive vegan specialty food", instead of "vegan specialty food is expensive"?

The impression I'm getting from what you and Thalassa have been saying is that inexpensive vegan specialty food is out there, but it takes some research to find out where to buy it.

If there is, I haven't seen it either in discount or major grocery stores. Though, this might be why:

There will be some areas that it is harder to find that others... for examples countries with a very heavy emphasis on dairy intake

It is no secret the US is heavily into the dairy industry. So, while it may be super available in the UK (I don't know, I'm not from there) this is certainly not the case in the US. Any major grocer you go to and find the 'cheapest' fake-meat-dogs they will still be a higher price or on par with a brand name American hot dog, even a nice one.

And if the market is going to make a dent in the industry across the board, the price point has to be what is addressed.. people don't want to pay more for fake stuff. There is a mention of cheaper meats cutting corners... Yeah, they do that, but they're still addressing the focus point of its target audience: price point. No one in their right mind is going to pay MORE for a mixture-odds-and-ends cheap hot dog than they do for Hebrew National.. you but it because it's cheap. That's the driving factor. So, likewise, no one is going to give fake meat a fair shake as long as it is 1. fake, and 2. more expensive. The reality is fake meat, even when made cheap and with coupons, is still the same cost as real meat, and fake milk has always been pricier than regular milk here in the US. While some credit does need to go to the engineering of these foods, I think reaching a broader market seems to be the way to get that credit done.

I don't think it takes a great deal of research or that it is particularly hard to find. All you have to do is google 'cheap vegan food'... you will find a vast array of alternatives.

Except as my OP shows, that is the first thing I did when pondering this question. This whole thread is about faux meats and cheeses, so 'food' just shows up with vegan recipes and not the subject at hand. The OP contains links to results from trying to find cheap vegan faux meats and cheeses.

Increasing interest in veganism has prompted criticism and backlash from non-vegans. Critics of veganism have questioned the evolutionary legitimacy and health effects of a vegan diet, and pointed to longstanding philosophical traditions which held that man is superior to the other animals.[79] Celebrity chef Anthony Bourdain has compared vegans to the militant group Hezbollah.[80]"

Despite my personal views on veganism, I still would like to think I know a good thing when I see it. Fake meat markets, if driving for reaching the whole country vs reaching for the people they know they will make money off of, could be a very real impact that hits the meat industry exactly where it needs to--in the consumer pockets. While not everyone will be about fake meat by any means in the US, I think there are enough of us frugal-minded shoppers out there that would gladly switch over the moment it started saving money at the grocery store.

 

[Betty Blue]

I'm sure it can be quite frustrating to repeat the same things over and over again.. but. You walked into my thread. Either you gotta be okay with saying the things you already know, or just don't bother. No one is forcing this down your throat.

I see what I think is a good idea as a meat-eater not-at-all in the vegan world and ask why it seems the concept is all at odds (the concept of impacting the meat-and-dairy market + the fake meat market being driven higher), and I get a lot of name-calling and blame for being the stupid, uncivilized non-vegan asking dumb questions.



If there is, I haven't seen it either in discount or major grocery stores. Though, this might be why:



It is no secret the US is heavily into the dairy industry. So, while it may be super available in the UK (I don't know, I'm not from there) this is certainly not the case in the US. Any major grocer you go to and find the 'cheapest' fake-meat-dogs they will still be a higher price or on par with a brand name American hot dog, even a nice one.

And if the market is going to make a dent in the industry across the board, the price point has to be what is addressed.. people don't want to pay more for fake stuff. There is a mention of cheaper meats cutting corners... Yeah, they do that, but they're still addressing the focus point of its target audience: price point. No one in their right mind is going to pay MORE for a mixture-odds-and-ends cheap hot dog than they do for Hebrew National.. you but it because it's cheap. That's the driving factor. So, likewise, no one is going to give fake meat a fair shake as long as it is 1. fake, and 2. more expensive. The reality is fake meat, even when made cheap and with coupons, is still the same cost as real meat, and fake milk has always been pricier than regular milk here in the US. While some credit does need to go to the engineering of these foods, I think reaching a broader market seems to be the way to get that credit done.



Except as my OP shows, that is the first thing I did when pondering this question. This whole thread is about faux meats and cheeses, so 'food' just shows up with vegan recipes and not the subject at hand. The OP contains links to results from trying to find cheap vegan faux meats and cheeses.



Despite my personal views on veganism, I still would like to think I know a good thing when I see it. Fake meat markets, if driving for reaching the whole country vs reaching for the people they know they will make money off of, could be a very real impact that hits the meat industry exactly where it needs to--in the consumer pockets. While not everyone will be about fake meat by any means in the US, I think there are enough of us frugal-minded shoppers out there that would gladly switch over the moment it started saving money at the grocery store.

Seriously....?


Google

Apparently the food market has increased in the states (though looking at stats maybe not to the same extent).... IF you look. Of course a minority market is not going to be taking over the mainstream... but it is in the mainstream... just see the wiki extract I posted.

Where exactly are you looking? what are these expensive alternatives and where are you finding them?

 

[EJCC]

Seriously....?


Google

Apparently the food market has increased in the states (though looking at stats maybe not to the same extent).... IF you look. Of course a minority market is not going to be taking over the mainstream... but it is in the mainstream... just see the wiki extract I posted.

Where exactly are you looking? what are these expensive alternatives and where are you finding them?

In most grocery stores where I'm currently living -- can't speak to where [MENTION=4939]kyuuei[/MENTION] lives -- there's typically one "natural and organic foods" aisle, or half an aisle, where all that sort of food is. In my experience, some of it is the same price as the meat/dairy equivalent, but none -- NONE -- beat the generic non-vegan store brand. I typically avoid that aisle because I always buy generic. Not to mention, it's such a small section of the store, God knows how complete a selection they have.

Exceptions to that rule:
- Trader Joe's, which sometimes has vegetarian/vegan food, but only sells its own brand, so you can't comparison-shop
- Whole Foods, which is almost always 1.5-3x more expensive than other stores
- Mom's Organic Market (MOM) -- same as Whole Foods

I am fairly confident that if I checked each item on that PETA list that came first on your Google search, each item would be 1.5-2x more expensive than their non vegan equivalents in my city.

 

[Betty Blue]

In most grocery stores where I'm currently living -- can't speak to where [MENTION=4939]kyuuei[/MENTION] lives -- there's typically one "natural and organic foods" aisle, or half an aisle, where all that sort of food is. In my experience, some of it is the same price as the meat/dairy equivalent, but none -- NONE -- beat the generic non-vegan store brand. I typically avoid that aisle because I always buy generic. Not to mention, it's such a small section of the store, God knows how complete a selection they have.

Exceptions to that rule:
- Trader Joe's, which sometimes has vegetarian/vegan food, but only sells its own brand, so you can't comparison-shop
- Whole Foods, which is almost always 1.5-3x more expensive than other stores
- Mom's Organic Market (MOM) -- same as Whole Foods

I am fairly confident that if I checked each item on that PETA list that came first on your Google search, each item would be 1.5-2x more expensive than their non vegan equivalents in my city.

Are you are comparing generic store brands to speciality foods.

Can you name the product brand and their prices so we can see exactly what you are comparing.

Just skimming through that list on peta I can see several things which certainly will not be beaten on price versus their dairy/meat equivalent. For example soy yoghurt. Please pay special attention to the word equivalent because this is where i think most of the misunderstanding is coming in.

 

[EJCC]

Are you are comparing generic store brands to speciality foods.

Can you name the product brand and their prices so we can see exactly what you are comparing.

Just skimming through that list on peta I can see several things which certainly will not be beaten on price versus their dairy/meat equivalent. For example soy yoghurt. Please pay special attention to the word equivalent because this is where i think most of the misunderstanding is coming in.

The reason why I didn't check individual prices is because, as far as I can tell, it depends on the store, the day, and the region. Show me a way to price-check store brands online and I'll do it. This thread was created for discussing facts, and since I was unable to find that data, I would welcome it.

I still don't understand why your tone is so combative. Am I attacking you?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I understand vegetarians a lot more than I used to, but why does meat have to be so tasty?