Explain islam and how it intermixes with the bible

[Mole]

The problem can be put simply as there is no separation of mosque and State in Islam, while there is the separation of church and State in Christianity.

This has huge ramifications. It means Christianity is not totalitarian and is friendly to liberal democracy, and it means Islam is totalitarian and hostile to liberal democracy.

Unfortunately we don't want to face these facts of religion, and desire a Pollyanna view of life, so we must continue to fool ourselves that we live in a world suited to our desires.

 

[Coriolis]

I am reading up on islam from various sources from the web and i am confused. Some say allah is the same god as christianity. Others try to prove he is not through things like name and sounds more like they are trying to reason. All say mohammed is a prophet of Allah and that jesus is also a prophet. Which means it is the same God. Some say that the bible is one of several books that are from Allah, but the scripture is corrupt. Due to this the quran from mohammed is directed as the only truth. Which just sounds lazy, as in i dont want to try and differentiate the truth in the other book, so i am just gonna throw them away. I have also read people say that muslim is not chritianity because they dont believe jesus is god, but just a mere prophet. I thought christianity was to believe in God, not to believe in jesus. Which further confuses because if muslims believe they are one in the same then chritians believe in allah.

Several good replies have already been offered, and I will try not to be redundant. Yes, one of the main differences is how Jesus is seen. Only Christians consider him to be God. Other faiths - particularly Judaism, Islam, and Bahai - revere him as a prophet but don't consider him divine.

On the question of whether Muslims, Christians, and Jews worship the same god, their holy books suggest they do, for reasons already stated. The broader question is whether this is the same god worshipped the world over by other faiths: Hindu, Zoroastrian, Buddhist, Native American, etc. The answer here comes down to personal belief. If one believes there really is only one god, then all must represent the same divine entity. That is a somewhat broader question than you posed, but it is a good illustration of how I view and engage with religion.

The term "religion of the book" has been used. Religions referred to by this term rely on writings attributed to God for wisdom, inspiration, and instructions on how to be a good person. Other religions in contrast find these things in more diverse sources. The reliance on a relatively unchanging text lends itself to a literal interpretation and can lead to ossification since, if the text never changes, it is easy to claim that our spirital world view and rules for living must never change. Disagreements arise then between those who want to take the writings literally, and those who favor a more figurative interpretation. From what I have read about contemporary Muslims, the second group has made far less headway than the corresonding group within Christianity. Then again, Islam as a religion is 600 years newer. I was gratified to hear an Imam on the radio the other day pointing out the need for Islam to shift to a more figurative interpretation if it is to remain relevant in the modern age. The majority of Christians seem already to have figured this out, though there are plenty of literalist hold-outs.

One cannot underestimate the interplay between culture, politics, and religion. It is easy to mistake a cultural influence for a tenet of faith, for instance. The writings of Elaine Pagels provide a good perspective on this for Christianity. Unfortunately I do not know of a similar book concerning Islam, though I am sure they exist. The collapse of the many Jesus groups after the first couple of centuries BCE into the hierarchical church that has endured for hundreds of years was encouraged by rulers of the day wanting to establish a single ruler in charge of a political hierarchy. Mohammed's purpose in uniting his people through Islam likely influenced its early development in a similar manner. It should be pointed out that many provisions of Sharia law that we look on as backward and sexist now were actually progressive in their day. For instance, a daughter inherits only half as much as a son. On the other hand, her brother must also support her out of his share, and prior to that, she was guaranteed nothing at all. Seen figuratively, it is easy to update this for the modern age; taken literally, women truly are locked into the middle ages (a time, by the way, when Islamic culture was quite ahead of the West).

As I mentioned, culture is a big influence on religion, too. This can be seen even in the language of the various texts. I don't know Arabic, but even in translation, I can see that the Quran is much more flowery and poetic than the Bible. The most uplifting and breathtaking descriptions of God I have ever read anywhere are from the Quran. Bahai writings are similar, which isn't surprising since Bahai faith evolved out of Islam much as Christianity evolved out of Judaism.

If you want a good, practical, and personal comparison of the three religions of the book, read The Faith Club.

Basically, Mohammed used a strict interpretation of a popular monotheistic religion to unite his people into a single identity with a purpose. Mohammed saw his people as people of the book (Bible/Torah) too since all of Abraham's descendants existed in his region.

This is a very good way to summarize it.

This is one of the religious justifications for radical Islam's aggressive stance against the non-Muslim world, agreed. That was always a flame burning ready to consume and devour everything around it but Western foreign policy in the last 100 years definitely poured gas on that shit whether it was intentional or just stupid calculating and blow back. Of course, that's not to blame the West for the core violence inherent in radical Islamic theology but it gave them a clear and recognizable enemy to direct that hate towards. And this is one of the problems today. Their radicals recognize their enemy (the West and Western culture/values) while many of the supposed leaders in the West wont even name the enemy and try to pretend that this clash/war of civilizations doesn't exist.

The Bible is full of prophetic statements. Some are bound to come true by simple coincidence. Of course literalists will take this as Gospel, the way things have to be. I put it on a par with Christians blaming Jews for the death of Jesus; only die-hard literalists do that any more (I hope). Never mind that, according to their own mythos, Jesus had to be killed in order for humanity to receive redemption. I guess Jews just drew a short straw in that narrative.

The problem can be put simply as there is no separation of mosque and State in Islam, while there is the separation of church and State in Christianity.

Separation of church and state are no more part of Christian doctrine than Muslim. The fact that this separation exists more in majority Christian nations than majority Muslim ones derives from culture, not faith. For centuries, the Christian church was virtually synonymous with the government, through divine right of kings and loyalty of royal families.

 

[evilrubberduckie]

Allah and God are the same God. Allah translated in English is God. They are the same.

I had the same questions you had, but I have the luxury to be within the community of Islams. So I turned to my mother and asked her. This is how she explained it to me.

Allah saw how his children have corrupted and misinterpreted his book (the bible). So Allah sent down Mohammad "the Last Prophet" To give his children one last chance. Allah made the quran. Hoping that this last form would change his children and not be corrupted by the material world, and instead lead their life after
Allah's, to love Allah first, for Allah is Great, Our creator and salvation to the next life.

The Quran is "The final hope" for humanity that Allah (God) sent down to us. It's prophesied that if humanity is too corrupt, Allah will "end the world" I guess. Im fuzzy on that concept.

I know that some terrorist thinks that they are doing God a favor and starting the war to end the world of corruption for Allah. Most Muslims dont believe that shit though. Because the Quran states that Allah himself will do the dirty work. Not have a few mongrels do so for him.

Islam and middle eastern culture get mixed around a lot too. Like, the Quran states that wearing the headscarf is the choice of the women, and it is a choice she shall make on her bleeding day. But some cultures impress heavily on their women to wear it. Not mandatory. But Western Media cant differentiate between the culture and the religion. Since they both heavily influence one another.

 

[Beorn]

Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God? - Adam4d.com

 

[Mole]

Both are religions of the book, but the book is dead, and so the God of the book is dead.

What God do we now worship?

 

[Crabs]

The Bible is full of prophetic statements. Some are bound to come true by simple coincidence. Of course literalists will take this as Gospel, the way things have to be. I put it on a par with Christians blaming Jews for the death of Jesus; only die-hard literalists do that any more (I hope). Never mind that, according to their own mythos, Jesus had to be killed in order for humanity to receive redemption. I guess Jews just drew a short straw in that narrative.

That's a peculiar perspective coming from a pagan. Do you believe in any sort of precognition?

We're not talking about a coin toss here with 50/50 odds. Out of ALL the babies that were born in the entire world during that time, a very specific prophecy was written about that particular child and coincidentally it just happened to come true? Think about that. Mathematicians couldn't even calculate the odds for a prediction like that because there are too many variables.

 

[Poki]

Radical Islam and recognizing it exists.



It's simple. A regular moderate Muslim is just like any other religious person. They peacefully practice their religion as a private and community matter. They don't align themselves with elements in their religion that preaches radicalism and violence towards non-believers (this includes other Muslims that the radicals deem enemies).




Pledging allegiance to a violent group or committing violent crime in the name of your professed religion.



You're ultimately right but here's the issue to consider. When the data shows a significant (still a minority) portion of a said group (in this case Muslims but it could be anything for this example's sake) support ideals that are antithetical to our values (Western values) and the same or another significant minority is willing to engage in violence to uphold those ideals then it becomes a situation getting a mix between good and bad. Granted, most are still going to be good but there is enough of a 'bad' presence in the mix that extreme caution is warranted. Let's say you have a bowl of 100 M&Ms and you know approximately 20 of them are poisoned while the rest are harmless. Would you still scope your hand in there and eat them without a second thought? No, the solution isn't to never eat M&Ms again but to develop a reliable filter in weeding out the poisonous ones. Until such a reliable system is in tact and in place the rational thing to do would to be abstain from eating out of the bowel altogether. Make sense?

I found this article.

But a recent poll in 2015, also by Pew, shows that American Muslims are much less likely to share this attitude. By comparison, 45 percent of American Muslims approve of homosexuality, and 42 percent of Muslims support same-sex marriage recognition. In both cases, a greater number disapprove of acceptance than approve. But then, so do Evangelical Christians in numbers greater than American Muslims. Only 36 percent of Evangelical Christians approve of homosexuality and only 28 percent of Evangelical Christians support same-sex marriage recognition.

The good news is that support for acceptance of gays and lesbians in America has increased in all faiths between 2007 and 2014. And the point of this post is not necessarily to hold up social conservatives to criticism over an incident they had nothing to do with

Would you agree that we may be the change muslims need to shake off the radical views?

 

[Poki]

Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God? - Adam4d.com

That would fly if they werent in fact 2 seperate entities combined into one. Lets take a person with 2 heads, conjoined twins. Adam and steve...lmao...couldnt help it. Is adam steve? The are one in the same person.

 

[Poki]

The problem can be put simply as there is no separation of mosque and State in Islam, while there is the separation of church and State in Christianity.

This has huge ramifications. It means Christianity is not totalitarian and is friendly to liberal democracy, and it means Islam is totalitarian and hostile to liberal democracy.

Unfortunately we don't want to face these facts of religion, and desire a Pollyanna view of life, so we must continue to fool ourselves that we live in a world suited to our desires.

We have fought for that and a huge number of christians still want state and religion combined.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

Would you agree that we may be the change muslims need to shake off the radical views?

I'm not exactly sure what question you're asking? What do you mean by 'we?'

I support the data in saying most American Muslims do not hold radical views. Thus, I don't think change is needed for the majority however as concerns the significant minority that do hold radical views I'd say the the best push back and catalyst for change could come from the moderate Muslims themselves. Radical Islam's most vocal and outspoken opponents shouldn't be Trump, Republicans, Christians, etc. but moderate Muslims. Not just a statement when shit hits the fan but a constant ideological blitz on the radical elements, unyielding and unrelenting.

 

[Poki]

I'm not exactly sure what question you're asking? What do you mean by 'we?'

I support the data in saying most American Muslims do not hold radical views. Thus, I don't think change is needed for the majority however as concerns the significant minority that do hold radical views I'd say the the best push back and catalyst for change could come from the moderate Muslims themselves. Radical Islam's most vocal and outspoken opponents shouldn't be Trump, Republicans, Christians, etc. but moderate Muslims. Not just a statement when shit hits the fan but a constant ideological blitz on the radical elements, unyielding and unrelenting.

We as in americans, the western world. Not saying peolple wont die, things would be easy. But can we as america and the western world can convert muslims through just living and because war doesnt do shit. We have seen how well that works, how long have those countries been at war. Not convert to christians, but to moderate or maybe even further towards accepting all then moderates.

 

[evilrubberduckie]

I'm not exactly sure what question you're asking? What do you mean by 'we?'

I support the data in saying most American Muslims do not hold radical views. Thus, I don't think change is needed for the majority however as concerns the significant minority that do hold radical views I'd say the the best push back and catalyst for change could come from the moderate Muslims themselves. Radical Islam's most vocal and outspoken opponents shouldn't be Trump, Republicans, Christians, etc. but moderate Muslims. Not just a statement when shit hits the fan but a constant ideological blitz on the radical elements, unyielding and unrelenting.

You do know that there many groups of moderate Islam's fighting radical Islam's right? Like Hizballah. But the western world labels them as a terrorist group because they are also fighting against Isreal. Which in turn are alies with most western countries.

American Muslims are also speaking up against radicals constantly in the United States too. Media doesn't ever go to cover thier rallies. Last year a huge rally was heald in Michigan. Over 300 Muslims stood together. But no one heard about that.

 

[Also]

You do know that there many groups of moderate Islam's fighting radical Islam's right? Like Hizballah. But the western world labels them as a terrorist group because they are also fighting against Isreal. Which in turn are alies with most western countries.

American Muslims are also speaking up against radicals constantly in the United States too. Media doesn't ever go to cover thier rallies. Last year a huge rally was heald in Michigan. Over 300 Muslims stood together. But no one heard about that.

And that's the way things are going to work around here. Your voice will be drowned out by both white opponents and white supporters.

 

[ceecee]

Last year a huge rally was heald in Michigan. Over 300 Muslims stood together. But no one heard about that.

Right. And I posted video of that in the Orlando thread. But no media, other than the Detroit stations and that's a big maybe, ever talk about it.

This was in the Metro Times. A free arts and culture weekly. Why not mainstream media? This is a huge thing people have been bitching about for a long time. They aren't made aware and I don't know why. Here's the threats...

Here's some of the replies...

Twitter users respond to online threat against Dearborn Muslims with love (and sass) | Blogs | Detroit Metro Times

So these do exist, you just have to look yourself because the press won't cover them. It makes no sense.

 

[evilrubberduckie]

Right. And I posted video of that in the Orlando thread. But no media, other than the Detroit stations and that's a big maybe, ever talk about it.

This was in the Metro Times. A free arts and culture weekly. Why not mainstream media? This is a huge thing people have been bitching about for a long time. They aren't made aware and I don't know why. Here's the threats...

Here's some of the replies...

Twitter users respond to online threat against Dearborn Muslims with love (and sass) | Blogs | Detroit Metro Times

So these do exist, you just have to look yourself because the press won't cover them. It makes no sense.

Yep. Welcome to the frustrating world of being a Muslim in a western society.

 

[Qlip]

This book is an excellent introduction to the religion in context with the other Judaic rooted traditions: A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam

The detailing of the break with Judaism is really interesting. It all came from when Islam at the very beginning tried to get Jewish approval, got rejected and butthurt.

 

[Poki]

So we are all children of God, i have really heard and read way to much overlap and consistancy to believe otherwise. Some people just wanna cherry pick for stupid shit. Sounds like a family arguemnt of...he did thjs, no she did that. They did this, no they didnt. And we are so far disconnected we can take sides, but dont know for sure....faith

 

[Mole]

We have fought for that and a huge number of christians still want state and religion combined.

Certainly in Oz and the US this is impossible because our Constitutions mandate the separation of Church and State.

And rather than a large number wanting a State religion in Oz, there is no one wanting a State religion in Oz.

And it seems your claim there are a large number of Americans who want a State religion is special pleading based on propaganda against your religious right.

However this is not true of Islam which commands muslims to make Islam the State religion as a matter religious duty.

 

[Poki]

Certainly in Oz and the US this is impossible because our Constitutions mandate the separation of Church and State.

And rather than a large number wanting a State religion in Oz, there is no one wanting a State religion in Oz.

And it seems your claim there are a large number of Americans who want a State religion is special pleading based on propaganda against your religious right.

However this is not true of Islam which commands muslims to make Islam the State religion as a matter religious duty.

Its similiar in that its always fear based. Our pledge never had God in it until the scare of russia. People now think that all this violence is because we removed God from school, from the places it wasnt even part of in the first place. And that its unamerican to remove it.

The most hilarious part now is that "muslims" are trying to remove God and push "Allah" instead. When all paths lead to the same God. I am sorry, but when ALL names align, the story alligns, everything aligns except jesus is a prophet and there is no trinity which is a man made concept based on the bible, and you cant prove that God is God because of trinity when you defined the trinity because of your belief of God, Jesus, and Holy spirit is one.

It all stems down to God says do not worship anyone but God, christians worship jesus because they believe he is God, muslims cannot worship Jesus because he is a prophet and not God. Yet our word usage says God. It all just seems petty and stupid from current point of view.

Maybe i can make more sense of it as i learn more

 

[Mole]

Its similiar in that its always fear based. Our pledge never had God in it until the scare of russia. People now think that all this violence is because we removed God from school, from the places it wasnt even part of in the first place. And that its unamerican to remove it.

The most hilarious part now is that "muslims" are trying to remove God and push "Allah" instead. When all paths lead to the same God. I am sorry, but when ALL names align, the story alligns, everything aligns except jesus is a prophet and there is no trinity which is a man made concept based on the bible, and you cant prove that God is God because of trinity when you defined the trinity because of your belief of God, Jesus, and Holy spirit is one.

It all stems down to God says do not worship anyone but God, christians worship jesus because they believe he is God, muslims cannot worship Jesus because he is a prophet and not God. Yet our word usage says God. It all just seems petty and stupid from current point of view.

Maybe i can make more sense of it as i learn more

I must admit I have my own take on this. There is Christian theology and Islamic theology and they are different. However these theologies are pre-scientific, and take no account of geology, or biology, or astronomy.

So in my mind at least these ancient theologies no longer make sense.

However I recognise religion is entrancing, and induces a welcome trance in its members. And when we are entranced reason falls asleep and we take on faith whatever is suggested, from the very strange theology of Scientology to the mainstream theologies of Christianity and Islam.

Christianity has found a way to avoid violence amid different theologies by the separation of Church and State, while Islam is still stuck in theologic violence, by making no distinction between Mosque and State.