Dear Fe User,

[Cellmold]

Are there any Fe users in the theatre tonight? Get them up against the wall!

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Are there any Fe users in the theatre tonight? Get them up against the wall!

"If I had my way.... I'd have all of you shot!"

 

[Coriolis]

Reinin says they do. Te/Fi users are Objectivists/"Serious."
Socionics Dichotomies: R3t1

This looks like caring about the source of an error only in order to correct it. Not the same thing.

 

[grey_beard]

On the one hand, I admire Fe. Its focus on connecting, compassion, giving and being accommodating are a big part of what makes the world a good place to live. It "honors" the feeling of others, which is really wonderful and because of all of these remarkable qualities, it facilitates the building of trusting relationships in the way that perhaps no other function can replicate. Without it, I don't know if harmonious society would be possible.

At the same time, there are things which deeply disturb me about Fe. I don't like the judgements it applies to decide if somebody's actions are appropriate or not based on a generally accepted perspective or the feelings of the group. A combination of the arrogance that its perspective is right along with the fact that it tends to reflect a popular view means that it can lead to all sorts of things such as inaction, maintaining the status quo and conformity. A bad situation can continue to exist in the sake of maintaining harmony. Also, there is the particular challenge that when the Fe perspective is voiced, others quickly pile on, because of course it reflects a popular view - even if that perspective is wrong. An extreme negative example of Fe would be the Salem Witch Trials in which the mob was in agreement and yet all collectively wrong. It's like the sheep all running over the cliff together.

Don't get me wrong. I am a huge Fe fan. As I first stated, I see all of the good that it does in the world. Still, I'm quite happy to be an Fi user, with my own personal and subjective judgments, and to be freed from the tyranny of group think. Trust me Fe user, I've listened to what you said. The fact that I go along doesn't mean that I agree with you, nor does it mean you are right. It means that I've decided it is not a battle worth fighting. If I were to fight for every belief or cause I felt strongly about, I would quickly exhaust myself. When I think something is right or it's wrong, it's my own opinion and not the opinion of others. With that perspective in particular, it is important to pick your battles.

Anyway, I guess what really bothers me is a deep disconnect on the values as to what is important. It is enough to understand this and to see the worth of both perspectives, I suppose for now.

Thank you very much and carry on.

OP thread necro, and all that, but you shoulda kinda sort oughta have posted this on that INTJ and ESFJ / ISFJ relationships thread, h'mmmm?
(Link: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/relationships/75209-intj-esfj-isfj-relationships.html)

 

[grey_beard]

Hi Annwn,

Interesting post - I see what you are defining above as interactions well-described through the enneagram.

Myself, I score as high in Fe as Fi and almost the same Ne & Ni on those cognitive function tests, but I *know* I am not an Fe user. I tell you though, before I used to come to this site and really go deep on these Fe / Fi discussions, I saw myself as pretty darn proficient in Fe ... thought I had much more insight into the structural components of that "way of thinking". I don't; I just don't think the same way. Oh, I can pass myself off as one fair enough. (I agree the terms "Fe user" and "Fi user" are imprecise and lack sophistication ... and no one uses functions in isolation, but time and time again there are two sides to this fence, and the views of Fe are generally on one, and Fi on the other.)

I have not once come across a thread where an Fi user is trying to explain Fi and an Fe user say "OH I GET IT NOW!" Has not happened. Ever. So to me that's becoming a pretty powerful, replicated pattern. And I have given it my best shot too, and have not met with success either. There's this point where we can get oh so close, but like two poles of magnetic force, at some point we push away, we just don't seem to connect.

The point? I don't know; just that if this discussion bears fruit it would be pretty amazing. I am still hopeful.

Thread necro, and all that. Almost 5 years.
Two points:

1) as of this point in time, have you ever had an Fe user who got Fi?

2) I think that they're akin in an bass-ackwards kind of way. Fi is about internal feelings (='values land mines', haha), but as I've seen it described, these internal values are expressions of, or ownership/staking a claim on/planting one's own flag on, *universal* human truths and values. Fe is about external human values, but not "internalized" and made into an archetype, but kind of -- well, this won't be flattering, but I have internal Fi instead of Fe -- more like taking an average of the external emotions of the group you're with, and not internalizing, like I said, but adopting, championing (like a salesman), reflecting them back, and sheepdogging anyone eccentrics who disagree, back into social conformity.

So Fi doesn't take on the colourings of the group, but recognizes the common humanity holding all members together; Fe takes on the colourings of the group, and ignores other peoples' *internal* states, but holds the GROUP together by forcing external consensus...

Comments? (Gee, I hope I didn't screw that up too badly. I'm trying *real* hard, being an armoured unit and all...)

 

[highlander]

OP thread necro, and all that, but you shoulda kinda sort oughta have posted this on that INTJ and ESFJ / ISFJ relationships thread, h'mmmm?
(Link: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/relationships/75209-intj-esfj-isfj-relationships.html)

Yes, I suppose so.

 

[grey_beard]

It's too old to join the BSCA (Baby Seal Clubs of America).

I'm surfing old comments randomly tonight.

Just d@rn. I thought *I'd* invented the BCSA. Well played, sir.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

This looks like caring about the source of an error only in order to correct it. Not the same thing.

And that's a valuable skillset. I prefer just making sarcastic quips myself; I don't have the patience for the other thing, usually. I try to zero in on what's going on with questions, but that only works on certain people.

I do share the belief that there is a "correct" answer; which isn't the same thing as saying that I always know what it is. Obviously everyone has different perspectives, but there's clearly something else going on independent of all those perspectives.

 

[Forever]

Reading your original post [MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] , me being a cashier, I totally dislike it when I sense that there is one moody customer and then those waiting behind somehow see this customer irritated and solely just the emotion and not really trying to speculate what the cause could be for that emotion and then they're moody. It's a sad pattern I see. So I'm happy when the moody customer is alone in my line, or there's a really positive person behind him/her. I think that's Fe's weakness. Group conformity for wrong things. Although I couldn't say Te is perfect either.

 

[PeaceBaby]

as of this point in time, have you ever had an Fe user who got Fi?

No, but I have found some who do accept it as a framework, one they don't see or understand but do appreciate and believe exists.

So Fi doesn't take on the colourings of the group, but recognizes the common humanity holding all members together; Fe takes on the colourings of the group, and ignores other peoples' *internal* states, but holds the GROUP together by forcing external consensus...

Yes, I like how you've condensed that down, with the following caveat. I used to think Fe ignored internal states, but for the most part, I've realized Fe users actually have little to no perception of the space I define as that space. Like literally, do not sense, like the human eye can't generally "see" ultraviolet light. It has helped mature my attitude from frustration to acceptance.

It's only when I more openly push my emotions around on the chessboard of Fe that I can participate in that realm, so I've been trying to be more clear about getting my needs met by Fe users. It does seem to help all be happier.

Ni-Fe gets good at what it does from reading hundreds or even thousands of tiny nearly imperceptible external cues encompassing a variety of "tells". Fi-Ne gets good at what it does by opening to what's sensed from that internal space and tangentially fanning out to connect all those feelings into a consistent logical (Fi-logical) web. People who can fake a "tell" can deceive Ni-Fe. People who can fake an internal state can deceive Fi-Ne. To maintain such a deception would entail being able to keep up the game. An INFJ-INFP combination might be particularly effective at detection though, each being able to cover off a place the other does not "see".

 

[RandomINTP]

And what about inferior Fe?

 

[Cygnus]

And what about inferior Fe?

If it's in the fourth position in MBTI, that makes it your dual-seeking function.


Pairing up with a person who uses it in the dominant position will help you develop it.

 

[Galaxy Gazer]

I dislike Fe too, and I think Fe-doms can be very inconsiderate. Last semester, these girls (ESFJ and ISFJ) in my speech class wouldn't stop talking about this girl in their group who hadn't been coming to class. The ESFJ went on this rant about how they were going to kick her out if the group if she did come back. It made me so mad that I turned around and politely suggested they consider the fact that she might be going through a lot of stuff. I wanted to tell them off though.

Oh and in high school choir, the buttload of ESFJs in there wouldn't shut up about this ENFP because she missed a rehearsal. They were saying she should fail the class and stuff, like, in front of everyone. I didn't do anything because it would have been me vs. like 60 people, but I was really f***ing pissed off.

I don't even like the amount of Fe that other INTPs have. I hung out with an INTP and ISTP until they literally tried to ban someone from their lunch table for "being annoying." That time, I definitely told them off, lol.

Fe just seems immature at times. I think the concept of "majority rules" for group projects is stupid. Everyone involved should agree; that way everyone will work harder. Although I do have some Fe. As a kid, I was always that dork nagging everyone to put the crayons in the middle. I'll also admit that I can't stand some of the more unusual people I know (ie. otaku, furries, "otherkin," etc.) although that might be more Si than Fe, since I was raised in a pretty "normal" family.

 

[Poki]

No, but I have found some who do accept it as a framework, one they don't see or understand but do appreciate and believe exists.



Yes, I like how you've condensed that down, with the following caveat. I used to think Fe ignored internal states, but for the most part, I've realized Fe users actually have little to no perception of the space I define as that space. Like literally, do not sense, like the human eye can't generally "see" ultraviolet light. It has helped mature my attitude from frustration to acceptance.

It's only when I more openly push my emotions around on the chessboard of Fe that I can participate in that realm, so I've been trying to be more clear about getting my needs met by Fe users. It does seem to help all be happier.

Ni-Fe gets good at what it does from reading hundreds or even thousands of tiny nearly imperceptible external cues encompassing a variety of "tells". Fi-Ne gets good at what it does by opening to what's sensed from that internal space and tangentially fanning out to connect all those feelings into a consistent logical (Fi-logical) web. People who can fake a "tell" can deceive Ni-Fe. People who can fake an internal state can deceive Fi-Ne. To maintain such a deception would entail being able to keep up the game. An INFJ-INFP combination might be particularly effective at detection though, each being able to cover off a place the other does not "see".

I have been in a family of STRONG Fe and Te and have learned how to push my way around. They can be so forward, loud, and domineering that they dont really know who they respect and who they dont at those times. Had to become that way during get togethers to get a word in edge wise. On a one on one level though, its a much different story. They dont have that hype that builds Te or Fe and they are more personable, get them in a group though and DAMN, its loud, non-stop, and no holds bars. Never got into fights or anything, just alot of slinging shit around. I think they called it ham hawing or something. Gotta love texan phrases, they confuse the shit outta me.

 

[Hawthorne]

it's not perfect but what is.

Though I do find it interesting when people are irritated by the prescriptiveness and perceived restriction of Fe but fail to recognize those same characteristics in Te. Perhaps these individuals do not find the concept of "objective truth" as bizarre as "objective ethics"?

I also find it interesting when people dislike how unfair Fe is for refusing to elevate an individual's values above the group unless said individual is able to convey to the group how such a change is to the collective's benefit. I guess that second part might be where things fall through...

But that's what makes personality typology so neat, no?

 

[Dreamer]

it's not perfect but what is.

Though I do find it interesting when people are irritated by the prescriptiveness and perceived restriction of Fe but fail to recognize those same characteristics in Te. Perhaps these individuals do not find the concept of "objective truth" as bizarre as "objective ethics"?

I also find it interesting when people dislike how unfair Fe is for refusing to elevate an individual's values above the group unless said individual is able to convey to the group how such a change is to the collective's benefit. I guess that second part might be where things fall through...

But that's what makes personality typology so neat, no?

The thing that irritates me about Fe being used over the masses, is that I see so many people around me being played like puppets since I feel with many, emotional arguments are like some cheap ploy thrown onto them, and the maddening thing is, it actually works! Cue sad puppy commercial or starving child commercial. You are definately right though, in that Te does the same thing but through logic, but there is something about playing on the emotions of people that gets to me, versus playing on logical "truth". Just to put it out there, I often don't put too much stock into scientific evidence or proof either. It's not all that practical to research everything yourself, but I try not to take most things at face value.

Ugh, rant over... Sorry.

I want to add, I don't typically have anything against Fe, I just can't stand emotionally based arguments, and the fact that it actually sways people. THAT's the maddening thing to me, not the function in of itself.

 

[Hawthorne]

The thing that irritates me about Fe being used over the masses, is that I see so many people around me being played like puppets since I feel with many, emotional arguments are like some cheap ploy thrown onto them, and the maddening thing is, it actually works! Cue sad puppy commercial or starving child commercial. You are definately right though, in that Te does the same thing but through logic, but there is something about playing on the emotions of people that gets to me, versus playing on logical "truth". Just to put it out there, I often don't put too much stock into scientific evidence or proof either. It's not all that practical to research everything yourself, but I try not to take most things at face value.

Ugh, rant over... Sorry.

I want to add, I don't typically have anything against Fe, I just can't stand emotionally based arguments, and the fact that it actually sways people. THAT's the maddening thing to me, not the function in of itself.

Regarding the bolded, why do you think it works so well?

 

[Dreamer]

Regarding the bolded, why do you think it works so well?

Guilt is universal. It may come from somewhere individual for each person, but all someone has to do if they wish to sway people is to tap into this guilt in a general enough, yet targeted way that feeds on it. Such in the same way that a fortune teller makes general enough statements to blanket most people that come in to visit them, yet targeted enough to make it seem genuine for any individual. As far as I'm concerned, guilt is the easiest negative emotion to tap into to get the masses to think one way or another.

 

[fetus]

I dislike Fe too, and I think Fe-doms can be very inconsiderate. Last semester, these girls (ESFJ and ISFJ) in my speech class wouldn't stop talking about this girl in their group who hadn't been coming to class. The ESFJ went on this rant about how they were going to kick her out if the group if she did come back. It made me so mad that I turned around and politely suggested they consider the fact that she might be going through a lot of stuff. I wanted to tell them off though.

Oh and in high school choir, the buttload of ESFJs in there wouldn't shut up about this ENFP because she missed a rehearsal. They were saying she should fail the class and stuff, like, in front of everyone. I didn't do anything because it would have been me vs. like 60 people, but I was really f***ing pissed off.

I don't even like the amount of Fe that other INTPs have. I hung out with an INTP and ISTP until they literally tried to ban someone from their lunch table for "being annoying." That time, I definitely told them off, lol.

Fe just seems immature at times. I think the concept of "majority rules" for group projects is stupid. Everyone involved should agree; that way everyone will work harder. Although I do have some Fe. As a kid, I was always that dork nagging everyone to put the crayons in the middle. I'll also admit that I can't stand some of the more unusual people I know (ie. otaku, furries, "otherkin," etc.) although that might be more Si than Fe, since I was raised in a pretty "normal" family.

I think Fe can be quite unhealthy, especially when the individuals are young. ESFJs in high school are either the sweetest people ever, or they're the worst bitches.

Fe isn't immature. The individuals are. Fe just seems more outwardly immature because, well, it's an outward and interpersonal function. But healthy Fe is the most wonderful thing, I promise. I've seen it.

I don't know how old you are though. This is just something I've noticed.

 

[magpie]

My best friend is an SFJ. Potentially E, but I'm not sure. I've never gotten along with anyone better. I spent 7 hours in a row just talking to her when I saw her last.

When I was in high school I felt weird because she was so much better than me. Better as in good, though not necessarily good at things, just a good person. But she is good at things as well. But I'm happy to spend time with her now, in part because being around her makes me feel like I'm a good person too. I think with healthy Fe there is a lot of love to go around, and you can just sort of bask in it.

I've never gotten along with an ENFJ though.