Dear Fe User,

[Fidelia]

Orobas, I liked all of your post before last, but in particular the last paragraph! Yes! Exactly. We want the summarized processed version of your emotions along with a recommendation for action, while Te wants a summarized processed version of ideas along with a recommendation for action. Both sides are open to coming up with the action themselves, but do want the summary. Introverted thinking or feeling tends to view this as being far too superficial to adequately understand the problem and come up with an appropriate solution. I think both Fe and Te feel that bringing them unprocessed and summarized information is lazy or is requesting a lot of unnecessary attention and babying.

I also agree with you that Ti does personalize my Fe to specific people. I would even venture to suggest that Ni serves in tandom as well in narrowing down an optimal solution after considering a wide variety of possibilities specific to the situation. Do Fi and Si work this way for you?

 

[PeaceBaby]

It's true I want the high level summary too ... I will browse several data sources, sometimes dozens, to distill a conceptual framework of the issue at hand, then dig deeper where the data seems most promising. I definitely don't go deep unless needed, unless conflicting data points seem to warrant it, or where trends and patterns seem most apparent.

For example, when taking a new medication and researching effect / side-effects, I will do an online search of the most authoritative sources, then browse forums for anecdotal, subjective experience, dig deeper on stories, terms that repeat themselves with frequency, as I draw the connections together in a complex web of information. (The interwebs is like an addictive drug for Ne users! Can satiate my need to go as wide or deep as needed, instantly. Love it.)

I can learn so much this way, benefitting from the deep digging of other people (Ti), then using my own Ne and Fi to sift through what seems connected, relevant, feels right or wrong and what doesn't fit, examining that in more detail and coming to an internal consensus of probabilities and making a plan of action with good-ol' Te list making. (I think that's a way to describe it. . .)

That's I think at the heart of what disturbs me about Ti vs Fi ... I recognize that I benefit from Ti in many ways without having to use the function myself as a dom user, yet I can feel that Fe users do the opposite - discount the Fi digging, the Fi nuances, the Fi information. It's just as real, yet so difficult to use to convince anyone of that reality.

 

[Fidelia]

Not really sure what to say on that one. I feel like we've had this conversation already...I'm doing my best.

 

[PeaceBaby]

^ I know ... the answer isn't pointed at you specifically fidelia, just "out there" because I don't know exactly what to do either! I greatly appreciate your efforts.

-----

Was thinking about this while walking the dog ... saw my brother at XMas. He's an INTP. I was reminded how tolerant he is of my story-telling style this year. He's certainly a man of few words. But I started talking about one of my projects at dinner, and after 20 seconds of me talking my Dad started talking over me (very common for him to do this) and he started joking with the folks at his end of the table, distracting them from listening and making me feel like I shouldn't bother trying to maintain everyone's attention. My brother though was focussed, didn't make me feel rushed or like I was boring him. Then he cut my Dad down to size with two scathing comments that only they would truly understand together, wickedly horribly funny, but meant to hurt too. So then I took on the peace-keeper / change the subject role ... families.

However, Ti doms are an interesting lot in many ways ... although definitely not Fi users, they are familiar enough with the need to dig - and to express that digging in a non-summarized way that they can have some patience with the parts they don't "get" or if the expression is somewhat muddied. An Fe user seems to come to judgement before an Fi user can get there, is all. Is it possible to suspend judgement, until Fi can get to where it needs to go? I know it drives me nuts to hear out Ti at times (like, I don't need to know the nuances of how the car works, I just want to drive it!) ... so can empathize there.

Plus, I was thinking that an INFP will seldom show "emo" like an ENFP ... it could be a reason why ENFP's feel in particular the hasty judgements from INFJ? IDK, just some ramblings to try to come to my own understanding too.

 

[sculpting]

Peace babay-my entp and I were chatting about understanding over lunch...she said she needs a person not to simply say they feel bad-but to actually say they are sorry if something is done that hurts her. When her husband does something unintentionally-then says "I feel bad", her response is "but what does that have to do with how I feel?". He is an ISTJ, she an ENTP. I myself dont need verbal apologies or emotional expressions of apology, if I recognize the person felt guilty and we have negotiated a Te action plan moving forward of how the offense will not be repeated.....almost like I see their guilt, instantly mirror it, then forgive????

What are we wanting to hear form the Fe users? Cause I get what you are saying, but I get where Fidelia is coming from...I feel like I am seeking some sort of affirmation or acknowldgement of...something? Like my ENTP-I am waiting to hear the "right" words-but I dont really understand if those words-whatever they are-are something that an Fe user would ever innately say-just like it is weird for the ISTJ to apologize when he didnt actually mean to do anything wrong??? (sorry this is really babbly-I am grasping at something but not sure what....)

edit:wrt the ENFP comment in PB's post-I suspect our Fi isnt as cleanly segmented and resolved as an INFPs-thus hurts against a part of our Fi, may feel like hurts against all of our Fi-but this could be an issue with my less resolved Fi as compared to even a normal enfp. Trying to figure out ways to share Fi but not feel crippled by having Fi critiqued myself...

 

[Fidelia]

Okay, this I can identify with. I can also identify with not wanting to request it of someone even if I want them to say something to acknowledge that we went off the rails somewhere so that discussion can happen. What is it that you tend to want acknowledged before you can continue on? For me, I think it's admission that the other person understand where the error was and how it affected me so that they can steer around it for next time. The person may feel bad, but if they don't realize the impact their actions have had and they also have no plan in place to change it for next time, we'll run into the same problem again in the future. What's the analogous equivalent from a Te-Fi perspective?

 

[PeaceBaby]

What are we seeking to hear from the Fe users?

My first kick at this would be the following:

1.) That our opinion is important, even if not understood
2.) That if we display emotion, we are not always at risk of being alienated
3.) That is we are willing to engage in conflict, it must be for something of deep importance, so back to point 1.)
4.) That intentions, not only outcomes, have meaning too and should not be quickly dismissed
5.) That we are part of the "team" - working to a goal, even if we disagree

? ? ?

More thoughts welcome ...

What do Ti doms want? Likely what we want is not so much different than that.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Okay, this I can identify with. I can also identify with not wanting to request it of someone even if I want them to say something to acknowledge that we went off the rails somewhere so that discussion can happen. What is it that you tend to want acknowledged before you can continue on? For me, I think it's admission that the other person understand where the error was and how it affected me so that they can steer around it for next time. The person may feel bad, but if they don't realize the impact their actions have had and they also have no plan in place to change it for next time, we'll run into the same problem again in the future. What's the analogous equivalent from a Te-Fi perspective?

@bold: Questions of curiosity .... does who's right or wrong affect you here? Do you tend to think you are right, and the other person wrong, thus owes the apology? Is it easy to convince you that you can be wrong about conflicts? (My assumption is that Fe will tend to think it's right of course ... just like Te.)

As has been said before, Fi users can be oblivious to when they have stepped on Fe toes, and an Fe user can tend to "shut the door" of communication so you can barely drag the reason out at times, because to them it seems "obvious"! I think there's always that fear too, that fear of being "locked out" by an Fe user that I don't think is quite analogous to an Fi user ... if someone offered what felt like genuine regret and not "crocodile tears" to me I would be fast to move past any conflict. The fact that Fe users often want to retreat and process makes it hard sometimes to 1.) understand the offence and 2.) know what to do about it, when to brooch the subject again, how to be "forgiven".

Sigh, it's all so hard, no?

 

[Tallulah]

It's true I want the high level summary too ... I will browse several data sources, sometimes dozens, to distill a conceptual framework of the issue at hand, then dig deeper where the data seems most promising. I definitely don't go deep unless needed, unless conflicting data points seem to warrant it, or where trends and patterns seem most apparent.

For example, when taking a new medication and researching effect / side-effects, I will do an online search of the most authoritative sources, then browse forums for anecdotal, subjective experience, dig deeper on stories, terms that repeat themselves with frequency, as I draw the connections together in a complex web of information. (The interwebs is like an addictive drug for Ne users! Can satiate my need to go as wide or deep as needed, instantly. Love it.)

I can learn so much this way, benefitting from the deep digging of other people (Ti), then using my own Ne and Fi to sift through what seems connected, relevant, feels right or wrong and what doesn't fit, examining that in more detail and coming to an internal consensus of probabilities and making a plan of action with good-ol' Te list making. (I think that's a way to describe it. . .)

That's I think at the heart of what disturbs me about Ti vs Fi ... I recognize that I benefit from Ti in many ways without having to use the function myself as a dom user, yet I can feel that Fe users do the opposite - discount the Fi digging, the Fi nuances, the Fi information. It's just as real, yet so difficult to use to convince anyone of that reality.

I think (just a personal theory) that we most easily see the benefit from Fi users not on an individual level but on a social and political level. I think Fi is probably what champions the underdog, raises its voice for social change, is the squeaky wheel that ultimately gets the grease when it makes its presence felt with the help of others and the media. It's okay with ruffling feathers. I also think it's a driving force behind music that moves us, that says something. It's being able to take personal experience and make it poetic and universal; it helps personalize what people have objectified or "othered." I think that's Fi, anyway. That's the sort of thing maybe that needs a little distance to appreciate.

 

[uumlau]

I think (just a personal theory) that we most easily see the benefit from Fi users not on an individual level but on a social and political level. I think Fi is probably what champions the underdog, raises its voice for social change, is the squeaky wheel that ultimately gets the grease when it makes its presence felt with the help of others and the media. It's okay with ruffling feathers. I also think it's a driving force behind music that moves us, that says something. It's being able to take personal experience and make it poetic and universal; it helps personalize what people have objectified or "othered." I think that's Fi, anyway. That's the sort of thing maybe that needs a little distance to appreciate.

This statement officially has the Uumlau seal of approval:

 

[Fidelia]

I think it has more to do with the result rather than the motive. It's like if I as a Ti user screwed up an account for a major company with a Te boss by not doing my research and flying with a particular idea I felt had merit, they wouldn't really care whether I believed I was doing them harm or not or even whether or not I was sorry. The result is that I lost them a whole lot of money and some of their reputation and I need to fix it or at the very least make sure that I do not walk into the same problem again. If I don't really understand what caused the problem, I'm not going to know how to avoid it. If I don't acknowledge that I understand what caused the problem, the Te boss is not going to trust that I have learned anything to put into practice next time.

 

[Fidelia]

Notice that Tallulah's appreciation of Fi (which I think is reflective of mine as well) has a lot to do with what she can actually SEE that Fi does. It's got a tangible result. I think Te works similarly. It can appreciate Ti only where it sees that it has some visible beneficial outcome.

 

[sculpting]

This statement officially has the Uumlau seal of approval:

does this seal belong to a social organization? Or is too old?

 

[uumlau]

does this seal belong to a social organization? Or is too old?

It's too old to join the BSCA (Baby Seal Clubs of America).

 

[sculpting]

Orobas, I loved this. So true. So true. I do the exact same thing by skipping to the main concepts in a book, report, or email. Good Lord! It's a wonder anyone is my friend. Like EVAH!

But Te does have some advantages. As Uumlau pointed out, it can cut the wheat from the chaff and get to the important points without being bogged down in the subtleties. And, if Fe is similarly utilitarian then thank God for it!

Yeah, the best moment was when I was reading an email the ENTP had sent to her ENFP boss outloud to give my thoughts on how an ENFP might take the messaging. As I read, I started filling in the middle of the email-where all the Ti details were-with "blah, blah, blah" outloud. She said "Is that how you read the emails I send YOU?" Ummm....Guilty as charged. I just started laughing, so now it has turned into another fun point we can make fun of each other over. Or rather functionally stab each other repeatedly over.

 

[sculpting]

It's too old to join the BSCA (Baby Seal Clubs of America).

but it's very cute! Look at those winky little eyyyyeeessss!!! I suggest an exception.

Do the baby seals get to go on camping trips and earn merit badges?

 

[Tallulah]

Notice that Tallulah's appreciation of Fi (which I think is reflective of mine as well) has a lot to do with what she can actually SEE that Fi does. It's got a tangible result. I think Te works similarly. It can appreciate Ti only where it sees that it has some visible beneficial outcome.

This is a good point. I do think it probably works that way for Te/Ti, too. The Ti "blahblahblah" probably only becomes relevant to a Te user when it's been proven to create some sort of visible change, but it probably seems unnecessary and tedious at the time. Kinda like, "why do I need to know all this?"

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

^ pretty much.

It seems like many people like to talk and talk and talk, yet they still manage to say nothing.

 

[PeaceBaby]

It's too old to join the BSCA (Baby Seal Clubs of America).

I would think he protests Seal Clubs, don't you?

 

[highlander]

Exactly. We want the summarized processed version of your emotions along with a recommendation for action, while Te wants a summarized processed version of ideas along with a recommendation for action. Both sides are open to coming up with the action themselves, but do want the summary. Introverted thinking or feeling tends to view this as being far too superficial to adequately understand the problem and come up with an appropriate solution. I think both Fe and Te feel that bringing them unprocessed and summarized information is lazy or is requesting a lot of unnecessary attention and babying.

I think it has more to do with the result rather than the motive. It's like if I as a Ti user screwed up an account for a major company with a Te boss by not doing my research and flying with a particular idea I felt had merit, they wouldn't really care whether I believed I was doing them harm or not or even whether or not I was sorry. The result is that I lost them a whole lot of money and some of their reputation and I need to fix it or at the very least make sure that I do not walk into the same problem again. If I don't really understand what caused the problem, I'm not going to know how to avoid it. If I don't acknowledge that I understand what caused the problem, the Te boss is not going to trust that I have learned anything to put into practice next time.

Notice that Tallulah's appreciation of Fi (which I think is reflective of mine as well) has a lot to do with what she can actually SEE that Fi does. It's got a tangible result. I think Te works similarly. It can appreciate Ti only where it sees that it has some visible beneficial outcome.

These are outstanding explanations/analogies. Helps to make things much clearer.

As has been said before, Fi users can be oblivious to when they have stepped on Fe toes, and an Fe user can tend to "shut the door" of communication so you can barely drag the reason out at times, because to them it seems "obvious"! I think there's always that fear too, that fear of being "locked out" by an Fe user that I don't think is quite analogous to an Fi user ... if someone offered what felt like genuine regret and not "crocodile tears" to me I would be fast to move past any conflict. The fact that Fe users often want to retreat and process makes it hard sometimes to 1.) understand the offence and 2.) know what to do about it, when to brooch the subject again, how to be "forgiven".

I feel exactly the same way.

I myself dont need verbal apologies or emotional expressions of apology, if I recognize the person felt guilty and we have negotiated a Te action plan moving forward of how the offense will not be repeated.....almost like I see their guilt, instantly mirror it, then forgive????

What are we wanting to hear form the Fe users? Cause I get what you are saying, but I get where Fidelia is coming from...I feel like I am seeking some sort of affirmation or acknowldgement of...something? Like my ENTP-I am waiting to hear the "right" words-but I dont really understand if those words-whatever they are-are something that an Fe user would ever innately say-just like it is weird for the ISTJ to apologize when he didnt actually mean to do anything wrong??? (sorry this is really babbly-I am grasping at something but not sure what....)

Some people don't seem to apologize. Ever. I have always wondered why that is. Not sure if it has anything to do with type. I tend forgive pretty easily but do like to see something. What it is, I'm not sure. Time helps too. You just forget about stuff after a while.

What are we seeking to hear from the Fe users?

My first kick at this would be the following:

1.) That our opinion is important, even if not understood

It's an interesting concept and I agree with you. However, it seems like a hard thing for another person to do if they don't understand it. Isn't that part of what we need to do - explain our opinions so others can understand? Maybe this is easier for some types than others.

This is a good point. I do think it probably works that way for Te/Ti, too. The Ti "blahblahblah" probably only becomes relevant to a Te user when it's been proven to create some sort of visible change, but it probably seems unnecessary and tedious at the time. Kinda like, "why do I need to know all this?"

I feel badly that sometimes I interrupt people in these situations. I want them to get to the point. They are not always Ti users either.