Cooperation: Islam and Christianity

[Mustafa]

Why?


But what did you mean by it? How would they be hiding behind the law?

Sorry. I am overfocused on monotheism. POLYtheism is the only since Allah does not even forgive. Because we have to be united under one God i believe. There is a story about Abraham the father of all our religions. He was the son of a priest. But he doubted the Gods of old. So one day he broke all the Gods (made of clay) and left the big one stay whole. The others found out and put him to trail. They said why? He said. Ask you Chief God, the big one. They knew they couldn't, they lost. But didn't give up. So they thew him in the fire, and I've heard about Christirans in the bible being thrown into the fire and coming out whole. He came out whole.

To hide beind the law is to say "I've got the law on my side". My father taught me when I was young: "The boy is not he who says my father was (and my father was great), the boy is he who says here I am!" So the law is the father and I am the boy. I have to say here I am. At least once.

 

[Mustafa]

They do, actually.

I met a Chatholic who didnt belive Jesus was the son of God. Did he lie?

 

[ceecee]

I met a Chatholic who didnt belive Jesus was the son of God. Did he lie?

Yep, he did.

 

[Cowardly]

I met a Chatholic who didnt belive Jesus was the son of God. Did he lie?

Did you ask him why?

I was raised Catholic. I was told that Jesus was the son of God so many times that I could write you a book full of quotations.

 

[Coriolis]

By contrast, Christianity accepts and practises the separation of religion and the State. There is no State religion in Oz. And Christians practise common decency an keep their religion private.

That may be the theory, but in practice, at least in the US, our laws are heavily influenced by Christian morality, and significant segments of the population and the politicians they support want to increase this influence.

I don't mind proselytism. As I said, I don't think of it as either good or bad.

But I can't understand how proselytism isn't not keeping religion private.

I find proselytising inherently disrespectful. Most people would consider it rather rude to go up to a neighbor, much less a total stranger, and tell them that they should add a sunroom to their house, or grow different vegetables in their garden. But telling them their religion isn't good enough and they should consider yours? I'm all for learning about other religions, cultures, and ways of seeing things as a way to understand others and appreciate the diversity of humanity, but that is not what proselytising is about. It always comes off as "my religion is better than yours", whether stated explicitly or merely implied.

And Jesus is not the son of God. In the Bible, the prophet Adam is described as son of God too. Catholics doesn't believe that Jesus is son of God.

All Christians believe Jesus was the son of God, including Catholics. But then They all describe us all (i.e. humans in general) as children of God. Even as a child growing up Catholic, I found it inconsistent to single Jesus out just for this reason.

I think that the higher powers wants us to unite, uner one heaven, but we humans are so racist and occupied with war and money and war that we can't see all the things we have in common and so we can find a solution to what we don't agree about. We humans. Instead we look at our differences and media doesn't help and forget all our commonalities. But the Gods (Allah) wants us to unite under one heaven.

From one of my favorite articles on the unity of the divine, and the wish of Deity for that to be reflected in humanity:

Leave the world a better place by living your life with dignity and gracefulness, for you are Our Own Children. Hold back nothing from life, for the parts of you that can die surely will, and the parts that can't, won't. So don't worry, be happy. (We stole that last line from Bobby McFerrin.)

Simple stuff. Why do you keep making it so complicated? It's like you're always looking for an excuse to be upset. And We're very tired of being your main excuse. Do you think We care whether you call Us.... Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, Diana, Wakantonka, Brahma, Cerridwen, Father, Mother, God, Goddess or even the Void of Nirvana? Do you think We care which of Our special children you feel closest to, Jesus, Mary, Buddha, Krishna, Gerald, Mohammed or any of the others? You can call Us and Our Special Ones any name you choose, if only you would go about Our business of loving one another as We love you. How can you keep neglecting something so simple?

We're not telling you to abandon your religions. Enjoy your religions, honor them, learn from them, just as you should enjoy, honor, and learn from your parents.

But do you walk around telling everyone that your parents are better than theirs? Your religion, like your parents, may always have the most special place in your hearts, We don't mind that at all. And We don't want you to combine all the Great Traditions in One Big Mess. Each religion is unique for a reason. Each has a unique style so that people can find the best path for themselves.

 

[Cowardly]

I find proselytising inherently disrespectful. Most people would consider it rather rude to go up to a neighbor, much less a total stranger, and tell them that they should add a sunroom to their house, or grow different vegetables in their garden. But telling them their religion isn't good enough and they should consider yours? I'm all for learning about other religions, cultures, and ways of seeing things as a way to understand others and appreciate the diversity of humanity, but that is not what proselytising is about. It always comes off as "my religion is better than yours", whether stated explicitly or merely implied.

Many times it depends on who's doing it. Some people are unimaginably better at trying to make other people join them in a not-holier-than-thou tone than others.

I couldn't understand why people in my religion said that those that didn't accept God were going to hell, but were fine with and respected people of other religions.

As a child, I felt very uncomfortable knowing that there were so many people that were going to hell because they weren't Christians. I was willing to go talk to them and tell them that Christianity was right. The thought of all these people going to hell due to ignorance while I just sat on my Christian ass knowing that I would be safe and they wouldn't and that there was something I could actually do about it was very disturbing. I didn't understand how people could worship other gods and still be validated by Christians if our God was the only true one.

It didn't make sense to me that just being part of a religion was enough for some of us, since for me the truth was what mattered.

So I see it under a neutral light. I think some of them don't view it as "my religion is better than yours", but rather as "this is the truth and I'm worried that you can't see it".

I also accept that, from a strategic viewpoint, it's only expected that religions try to expand. Though I don't like the thought of them expanding in the least.

But that doesn't mean I support proselytism. I just don't find it immoral.

EDIT: I do have a problem when children are taught the "truth" of their parents' religion. Such irresponsibility, honestly.

 

[Mustafa]

Not only Jesus is not the son of God, noone is the son of the Father. The heaven. In China they called the heaven father and creative and the earth mother and truth, and man is inbetween. The trinity is logically impossible and you have to reject yourself in order to live in faith and accept Jesus as God. I agree we symbolically are the children of heaven, but not really. I can't and noone is honorable (creative) and upright (truthful and 90 degrees up) if he is so.

 

[Coriolis]

So I see it under a neutral light. I think some of them don't view it as "my religion is better than yours", but rather as "this is the truth and I'm worried that you can't see it".

I also accept that, from a strategic viewpoint, it's only expected that religions try to expand. Though I don't like the thought of them expanding in the least.

But that doesn't mean I like proselytism. I just don't find it immoral.

EDIT: I do have a problem when children are taught the "truth" of their parents' religion. Such irresponsibility, honestly.

Children are the one group that each of us should be sharing our religion with. We are responsible to teach them, and that includes about faith. Ideally we will also expose them to different faiths, and the idea of not embracing a religious faith, so as adults they can choose for themselves. But just as we don't shy away from cooking mostly the foods of our particular culture, we needn't shy away from exposing them first and foremost to the beliefs of our faith.

To the broader point, though, if someone is proselytising because they are worried that others don't see the truth as they do, they are missing a significant part of that truth. They are at best the blind leading the blind; at worst the blind trying to lead someone with a marksman's eye. The only respectful way to proselytise is to let your actions speak for you. Then when people ask how you can be so kind, compassionate and giving, even toward total strangers, you explain how your faith motivates your actions.

 

[Cowardly]

Children are the one group that each of us should be sharing our religion with. We are responsible to teach them, and that includes about faith. Ideally we will also expose them to different faiths, and the idea of not embracing a religious faith, so as adults they can choose for themselves. But just as we don't shy away from cooking mostly the foods of our particular culture, we needn't shy away from exposing them first and foremost to the beliefs of our faith.

I admit that I might be biased through my agnostic point-of-view.

And I accept that many parents expose their children to other religions since an early age. But there's a difference between sharing one's religion with one's children and telling them that it's the absolute right one.

My point is that presenting their religion as the ultimate truth to someone that will rarely if ever question what they say in that stage of their lives, and trust them completely, is immoral to me. Young children are incapable of critical thinking when it comes to their parents, and when those parents tell them that a very debatable belief is the actual truth, they believe it entirely. And that is irresponsible. Though of course, I'll assume most of those parents just don't know any better.

To the broader point, though, if someone is proselytising because they are worried that others don't see the truth as they do, they are missing a significant part of that truth.

What part?

They are at best the blind leading the blind; at worst the blind trying to lead someone with a marksman's eye. The only respectful way to proselytise is to let your actions speak for you. Then when people ask how you can be so kind, compassionate and giving, even toward total strangers, you explain how your faith motivates your actions.

That might depend on the position their religion holds on proselytism. It's complicated as most of them have a blurry definition of what should be done to expand the faith. And "leading others to the truth" is seen as kinder than just being kind for some.

 

[indra]

Buddha not once spoke of a phenomenal end to Earth.

The only end, nirvana, was the cessation of suffering. By which Islam is a boulder across the shoulders.

 

[Mustafa]

Buddha not once spoke of a phenomenal end to Earth.

The only end, nirvana, was the cessation of suffering. By which Islam is a boulder across the shoulders.

What do you mean by phenomenal.


It is vague, but Buddha said in Dhammapada that a "little" Buddha would come after the original Buddhas intent was done. Maybe to decleare the final day? I believe that.

A believer is one who believes in Allah and the last day.

 

[Cowardly]

What do you mean by phenomenal.

Epic, dramatic, cinematic.

I love words.

 

[Mustafa]

Epic, dramatic, cinematic.

Thank you very much.

Well Jesus will come down from heaven (nirvana to root chakra i believe). I do have Aspergers and they are strongly narrsisitic originally, so I believed I was Jesus or some great figure, but it wasnt time. When it is time the heaven and earth will support the dead and resurrected and alive warriors and there will be a great warprophecised all over the world, and then there will be heaven and God forbid, hell. But he is all merciful?

 

[Also]

I admit that I might be biased through my agnostic point-of-view.

And I accept that many parents expose their children to other religions since an early age. But there's a difference between sharing one's religion with one's children and telling them that it's the absolute right one.

My point is that presenting their religion as the ultimate truth to someone that will rarely if ever question what they say in that stage of their lives, and trust them completely, is immoral to me. Young children are incapable of critical thinking when it comes to their parents, and when those parents tell them that a very debatable belief is the actual truth, they believe it entirely. And that is irresponsible. Though of course, I'll assume most of those parents just don't know any better.

If they believe it's the right one, why would they present it as anything but?

What is your basis for immorality?

 

[indra]

What do you mean by phenomenal.


It is vague, but Buddha said in Dhammapada that a "little" Buddha would come after the original Buddhas intent was done. Maybe to decleare the final day? I believe that.

A believer is one who believes in Allah and the last day.

Most religions are deeply concerned with temporal happenings - sin, reckoning, vengeance, the apocalypse. Heaven and Hell. These are phenomenal aspects of reality.

It is said Buddha taught two things: suffering, and the cessation of suffering. Pratityasamutpada, to break the chain. The cessation transcends reality, it transcends phenomenon.

Which verse in the Dhammapada do you reference? Doesn't ring a bell.

 

[Mustafa]

OK sorry. I am sure that when I was kid I read it in dhammapada and even saw discussion about a young monk whom wanted to meditate under the ground to see how it was like and his helpers did it for him, the dug a hole.

But ... Heeehhhhhhhhh .... Here is something else about Maitreya,

https://www.google.no/search?sclien....0.21.1626.0.fUYQIz3RxMg#q=buddha+coming+back

Edit: So there is a dramatic ending to life, like a last day. Probably it would be the worlds days. In the Quran it says that Allah is the owner of the "day of religion". I dont know what that means, but maybe.

 

[Cowardly]

If they believe it's the right one, why would they present it as anything but?

That's where I'm torn. I completely understand it. Of course they would present it as such if they actually believed it to be true. But the unwillingness of some people to question their beliefs maddens me. I would hold those that doubt it but instead introduce this belief as absolute more accountable.

Although I'm in no position to judge. And 'immoral' might be too strong a word.

Fi is exhausting.

What is your basis for immorality?

Basically anything that in the short or long term impairs the safety or progress of others. It's a spectrum as I see it.

 

[Mole]

That may be the theory, but in practice, at least in the US, our laws are heavily influenced by Christian morality, and significant segments of the population and the politicians they support want to increase this influence.

The US is a liberal democratic society based on a liberal democratic Constitution.

And remembering that the essence of liberal democracy is the limitation of power, it is no wonder totalitarianism hates liberal democracy, for the essence of totalitarianism is the maximization of power.

 

[Mustafa]

[MENTION=3325]Mole[/MENTION] Hitler was INFP, you knew that? I could be the next totalitarian guy! Makes me cry and laugh

 

[Mole]

[MENTION=3325]Mole[/MENTION] Hitler was INFP, you knew that? I could be the next totalitarian guy! Makes me cry and laugh

You know he was an INFP without doing the mbti test?