Cooperation: Islam and Christianity

[Thalassa]

I don't mind proselytism. As I said, I don't think of it as either good or bad.

But I can't understand how proselytism isn't not keeping religion private.


I understand the separation of church and State, and I absolutely support it. I just don't think it's practiced as it should be. Hence the officially.


How was that a threat in the first place?

By private he means it's not state sanctioned.

 

[Thalassa]

There is one song from from Nickleback which says; "nobody want to be the last one there, everyone want to feel that someone cares". So you got nobody (AKA master and Allah) and everyone (slaves or to put it in more beautiful words adherents). I believe Allah is the ultimate reality, which there is nothing beyond. Also openess to new possibilities (both J and P) as Allah says in the Quran praise your "highest" Lord. So what is highest as openess advances? I believe even if homo sapiens will evolve we will still ALL be muslims.

JFK is like our human connection between God and humans. And he is a just leader. Like Imam Ali whom led two continents in his time. And he was just.

By the law and finding the straight path. You can see in this in the Qurans first (short) chapter. Called the Opening.

It is You we worship and You we ask for help
Guide us to the straight path -
The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor (straight path with believer on top and "snakes" amongst them, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger (politically extreme right) or of those who are astray (politicallty extreme left).

You do realize that JFK was Catholic right?

 

[Thalassa]

Islam's greatest ally in the West is probably the Political Left, not most Christians. The political Left tend to have more of vitriolic hatred of Christianity and Right-inclined people that disagree with them (yay diversity!) than being more critical of Islam. Some even sympathize with Islam because of the anti-Western sentiment.

Only leftists who can't actually think their way out of a shoebox. They're going to be real surprised when they find out Islam is inherently political, so say goodbye to women's liberation, gay rights, and "diversity."

There are Christians who want to build a bridge with Muslims. It depends on the Christians and the Muslims. It's pretty difficult when Christians see other Christians being beheaded in the Middle East, or pushed into the water to drown when offering help to refugees...but there's always a better sort of Muslim, one who actually does want peace.

 

[Mustafa]

You do realize that JFK was Catholic right?

Why does it matter? I dont remember why I mentioned him in the first place, but he is not from Islam.
Once I told my Imam they say such and such in Buddhism, he said lets stick to our religion. We got plent of such and such within ourselves.

It seems you missed the part where I said that Jesus cant be the son of God, and it seems you only want to irritate me.

 

[Kheledon]

While I am naturally aristocratic as a Beta, I have a strong, liberal democratic streak in me, and this issue illustrates the way I handle the contradiction between these two traits.

I believe what I believe (as we all do), because if we thought we were wrong, we'd change our minds and believe something else. That said, I am but one person in a world of 7.2 billion, so it would be the height of hubris for me to assume that what I believe is "the ultimate truth" while dismissing the beliefs of over a billion Muslims (or, for that matter, 2 billion Christians).

Islam must have some beauty and utility. Otherwise, there wouldn't be over a billion people on the planet who share that faith. I feel I have no right to criticize or condemn Islam. Mercifully, I live in a country where freedom of religion is protected by our Supreme Court at the level of strict scrutiny. Islam has always recognized itself as one of the three religions of "the book" (the other two being Judaism and Christianity), and most Muslims believe that Jews, Christians, and Muslims can all go to heaven (because they all follow the God of Abraham). Many Christians are not so generous. In that sense, at least, Islam is, in fact, more tolerant and accepting of different "paths" toward spiritual enlightenment and eternal bliss.

Fe is noted for being "open" and non-judgmental.

Fe also maintains an active neutral stance on the entire whole of its inputs, even if the whole of the input of one emotional process conflicts with any of the other core processes it remains non-biased and registers them all as equals. Probably the most powerful aspect of Fe is the ability to not only stay well informed of new feelings, trends, and the changing moods of others in ways that may be utterly critical to survival in cooperative atmospheres, but the ability to convince through ethical implementations subjectively designed to reorganize and even direct the emotions of others into certain modes of ethical reasoning. This often includes the ability to cheer up others who are down, instinctual knowledge of the degree of tactful politeness to display to strangers, and influencing others to be kind to each other. Being an extroverted function, Fe cannot derive data from within and must amass information from outside of itself and in the here and now to survive as a function or at all.

Socionics - the16types.info -

Even though F is a judging function, Fe users don't judge with Fe. It's a neutral, input function. I see no need to "judge" Islam. If a billion or more people like it, who am I to say that they're wrong?

 

[Cellmold]

While I am naturally aristocratic as a Beta, I have a strong, liberal democratic streak in me, and this issue illustrates the way I handle the contradiction between these two traits.

I believe what I believe (as we all do), because if we thought we were wrong, we'd change our minds and believe something else. That said, I am but one person in a world of 7.2 billion, so it would be the height of hubris for me to assume that what I believe is "the ultimate truth" while dismissing the beliefs of over a billion Muslims (or, for that matter, 2 billion Christians).

Islam must have some beauty and utility. Otherwise, there wouldn't be over a billion people on the planet who share that faith. I feel I have no right to criticize or condemn Islam. Mercifully, I live in a country where freedom of religion is protected by our Supreme Court at the level of strict scrutiny. Islam has always recognized itself as one of the three religions of "the book" (the other two being Judaism and Christianity), and most Muslims believe that Jews, Christians, and Muslims can all go to heaven (because they all follow the God of Abraham). Many Christians are not so generous. In that sense, at least, Islam is, in fact, more tolerant and accepting of different "paths" toward spiritual enlightenment and eternal bliss.

Fe is noted for being "open" and non-judgmental.



Even though F is a judging function, Fe users don't judge with Fe. It's a neutral, input function. I see no need to "judge" Islam. If a billion or more people like it, who am I to say that they're wrong?

The times of clear sides is pretty much dead at this point. Any moral relativist in history would have noted the staggering amount of angles to come under a point of view and by extension... belief.

However the isolation of the various tribes and nations meant that the illusion of 'rightness' has continued to persist in the mind of the moral absolutist.

But then our blessed connectivity happened and there is no longer an isolation of views but an exposure, or more accurately the exposure is not the realm of the few anymore and now extends to nearly all of us, or enough of a majority to be the main structure behind modern belief.

Everything is an influence even if it is only an influence to reactive opposition. What we are seeing is the last elements of moral absolutism, attempting to hold onto the old method of sides.

Not realising that it spreads out like an epicentre without an actual centre. A hollowed out exposure of the transitory nature of belief systems.

And religious or not, eventually they will have to come to terms with the changing world.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

I believe what I believe (as we all do), because if we thought we were wrong, we'd change our minds and believe something else.

It doesn't seem this is true for everyone. Faith allows one to believe in something with impunity even if that belief is shown to be wrong compared to the facts of reality. I'd agree with this claim that we'd change our minds if we've arrived to our previous beliefs by way of reason and evidence and not faith or indoctrination.

That said, I am but one person in a world of 7.2 billion, so it would be the height of hubris for me to assume that what I believe is "the ultimate truth" while dismissing the beliefs of over a billion Muslims (or, for that matter, 2 billion Christians).

This is totally Fe and utilitarian, lol. You're a fine representative of an Fe dom, lol. It's a logical fallacy to think something must be true, at least in part, simply because a large amount of people believe it to be so.

Islam must have some beauty and utility. Otherwise, there wouldn't be over a billion people on the planet who share that faith.

This is an Fe judgment with must. You see that? Thousands of people (if not millions) believed in Hitler's vision of Europe yet I don't think beauty is a word to best suited to describe it when objectively measured against the facts.

I feel I have no right to criticize or condemn Islam.

Sure you do if there are core beliefs in that religion that conflict with your sense of values or the social values you espouse. Clearly many Muslims do not feel such inhibitions as you do when they criticize and condemn Western culture.

Many Christians are not so generous. In that sense, at least, Islam is, in fact, more tolerant and accepting of different "paths" toward spiritual enlightenment and eternal bliss.

But most of Christianity has had the benefit of being directly effected by the Enlightenment so, for instance, choosing to leave Christianity (give up one's faith) for another religion or no religion at all isn't punishable by death. Due to enlightenment values Christianity is merely a religion and acts as a personal guide for most of its' believers to live their own lives. It is not a political system of governance such as Islam. Islam is just as much political/social as it is religious given that the religion has its own clear rules and guidelines over jurisprudence and law ( Sharia). This doesn't only bring Islam into conflict with other religions on theological grounds but it also brings Islam in conflict with whole systems of law in different nations ( particularly Western) on legal grounds.

Fe is noted for being "open" and non-judgmental.

Fe derives values from external harmonization between society/people rather than an internal barometer of a personal repository of feelings so I guess that makes it 'open' but I still think its judgmental like any T/F function.

Even though F is a judging function, Fe users don't judge with Fe. It's a neutral, input function. I see no need to "judge" Islam. If a billion or more people like it, who am I to say that they're wrong?

I don't think so. Even some of your comments in this post came off as judgments such as X must be X. In fact its is a judgment of yours not to judge Islam merely because a billion people believe its true. You're using a utilitarian argument to justify your conclusion and the minute you draw a conclusion you are making a judgment.

Now if its just you saying they're wrong merely because you have a feeling that they are wrong then I agree, it's not a very good argument. However if the facts of reality on your side and you can demonstrate that through logic and evidence then you can say a billion people are wrong. A few hundred years ago the majority of the Earth's population believed the Earth was flat and the center of the universe until a minority of skeptics challenged that narrative. Disagreement with the majority drives innovation and knowledge.

 

[Kheledon]

[MENTION=25403]ZombieNinjaPirate[/MENTION]

Thanks for the thorough response. I found your comments very interesting.

In response, let me point to two sentences that appear in the same essay by Reuben McNew regarding manifestations of various cognitive functions in EIE (ENFj).

Describing Fi (internal value judgments--the EIE's ignoring function) McNew says:

Loyalty to a strong qualified ethical value system will never interest an ENFj!

Socionics - the16types.info -

Describing Ne (imagining possible futures--the EIE's demonstrative function) McNew says:

Disloyalty to a cherished, strong, and qualified belief system will never interest an ENFj!

Socionics - the16types.info -

Those two sentences seem contradictory unless and until one factors in the word cherished. I have Fi values, certainly. We all do. The question is whether or not I cherish them. I do not cherish religious beliefs, and, therefore, I feel no need or desire to either judge or criticize the religious beliefs of others. Loyalty to a strong, qualified, ethical value system (i.e. a religion) is of no interest to me, as McNew predicted.

On the other hand, I cherish both democracy and the Constitution of the United States. Democracy means one person, one vote (i.e., the political opinions of citizens should be equally valued under the law, as, I believe, should be our religious opinions). The First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States enshrines our national values of freedom of religion (you are free to believe whatever you want) as well as freedom from religion (there can be no state religion in the United States, and people here can not be legally discriminated against on the basis of their religious beliefs). I cherish those values, and because I cherish them, I can not be disloyal to them, as McNew predicted.

Interesting, no?

 

[Mustafa]

@ZombiePirateNinja You`r purely malicious. Dont thinker have a moral obligation to leave feelers alone? Does the fact that you have more power and ability to play mental tricks give you the right to attack feelers and their need for religion? You can go to hell, but truly, you are like Lucifer or Iblis. He said to God I will mislead everyone on your path, God said, except the believers, Lucifer accepted on the condition that Allah would burn him in hell together with all those who follow him, and God said that is a straight way with me.
[MENTION=26269]Kheledon[/MENTION] The people of the book are Christians and Jews. I belive their book is the Bible. And Our book is the Quran, confirming what was sent down to those before us. Us Muslims.
[MENTION=15392]Cellmold[/MENTION] Islam came to existence from the brain. But the reason it came was that people around the world made religionis of their own and went so far as to deny the truth. Therefore Islam came and was going to unite all religions under one heaven. Islam is unique. And it is the religion Allah choses for humanity. Had God chosen Christianity, for example, I´d be fine with that.

Peace

 

[Mustafa]

Only leftists who can't actually think their way out of a shoebox. They're going to be real surprised when they find out Islam is inherently political, so say goodbye to women's liberation, gay rights, and "diversity."

There are Christians who want to build a bridge with Muslims. It depends on the Christians and the Muslims. It's pretty difficult when Christians see other Christians being beheaded in the Middle East, or pushed into the water to drown when offering help to refugees...but there's always a better sort of Muslim, one who actually does want peace.

It is not muslims who does that. They call it Islamistic or something. ISIS are not muslims and you are lying!

 

[ZNP-TBA]

[MENTION=25403]ZombieNinjaPirate[/MENTION]

I have Fi values, certainly. We all do. The question is whether or not I cherish them. I do not cherish religious beliefs, and, therefore, I feel no need or desire to either judge or criticize the religious beliefs of others. Loyalty to a strong, qualified, ethical value system (i.e. a religion) is of no interest to me, as McNew predicted.

I think we understand typology differently but its not that important because I think we'll arrive at the same understanding most of the time. I understand MBTI functions in terms of being an axis. I don't think I have Fi values, I have an Ti-Fe understanding of values. I place value on those 'values' that agree with my subjective sense of logical consistency and that can be universal. For example, the concept of 'good' to me means that 'good' is an abstract in which every instance of it shouldn't be contradictory ( i.e. the claim that it's both good and bad for people to murder) and it should be universal to everyone. I don't believe everyone is inherently good(or bad) or that goodness is something everyone has inside of them that simply needs to be nurtured out through understanding one's own feelings. Good is not inherent rather its an ideal to strive towards ( I think this is an Fi-Fe difference).

On the other hand, I cherish both democracy and the Constitution of the United States. Democracy means one person, one vote (i.e., the political opinions of citizens should be equally valued under the law, as, I believe, should be our religious opinions).

I understand the Fe argument (which I often see as utilitarian) for cherishing democracy because on the face of it seems like ideal harmonization, one person , one vote. However, this holds within the danger of silencing a minority who might actually have a more reasonable view of things. This is why the founders insisted on the Bill of Rights to basically supersede democracy and elevate the primacy of the individual which is another reason America was meant to be a Republic and not a democracy in the truest sense.

The First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States enshrines our national values of freedom of religion (you are free to believe whatever you want) as well as freedom from religion (there can be no state religion in the United States, and people here can not be legally discriminated against on the basis of their religious beliefs). I cherish those values, and because I cherish them, I can not be disloyal to them, as McNew predicted.

Interesting, no?

Agreed which is why its perfectly legitimate to speak out against other value systems that contradict the basic human rights that are enshrined in the Bill of Rights. Especially other value systems that actively encroach on our values in our own country.

 

[Cowardly]

The police first ignored me, they thought maybe I was a wannabe terrorist. Like they say here, if i ignore it, it has nothing to do with my life. But I entered in 2009 and was there untikl 2012 (the end of the maya calendar) and then I ... I believe then I threated with occupyint the police with force and then I'd break down the rest of Norway and maybe the world.

How old were you?

@ZombiePirateNinja You`r purely malicious. Dont thinker have a moral obligation to leave feelers alone?

The feelers would slap us if we left them alone.

Does the fact that you have more power and ability to play mental tricks give you the right to attack feelers and their need for religion?

He's not the Joker, honestly.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

@ZombiePirateNinja You`r purely malicious. Dont thinker have a moral obligation to leave feelers alone? Does the fact that you have more power and ability to play mental tricks give you the right to attack feelers and their need for religion? You can go to hell, but truly, you are like Lucifer or Iblis. He said to God I will mislead everyone on your path, God said, except the believers, Lucifer accepted on the condition that Allah would burn him in hell together with all those who follow him, and God said that is a straight way with me.

New sigy!

 

[Cellmold]

[MENTION=15392]Cellmold[/MENTION] Islam came to existence from the brain. But the reason it came was that people around the world made religionis of their own and went so far as to deny the truth. Therefore Islam came and was going to unite all religions under one heaven. Islam is unique. And it is the religion Allah choses for humanity. Had God chosen Christianity, for example, I´d be fine with that.

Peace

This would of course be a difference in point of view.

 

[Mustafa]

Dance while you can. In the judgment day you will dance with all the disbelievers and the frying pan.
[MENTION=27574]Cowardly[/MENTION] I was 23 (but I have Aspergers)

And not leave the feelers alone. But like when you bother someone, the someone screams in agony: "leave me alone!" Leave me in peace is probably more suitable. Or I want peace and harmony. We are good at doing that. Feelers. .... There is an error in MB, that is relying too much on your dominant. That is when you become malicious.

That guy is no Joker. He is malicious. Like Lucifer. He deliberately causes harm. Why? Because it pleases him shortterm. While he is a longterm person. NT. He ignores his nature and abuses his mind.

 

[Mustafa]

This would of course be a difference in point of view.

I heard that the daughter of the prophet Muhammed said this in a speech, after his death. Straight after. It doesnt say all that in the Holy Quran. But it does say that Allah will complete his religion though the disbelievers may be averse.

 

[Cowardly]

Dance while you can. In the judgment day you will dance with all the disbelievers and the frying pan.

Dude, everybody says this.

There is an error in MB, that is relying too much on your dominant. That is when you become malicious.

I actually agree with that to some extent. I wouldn't say malicious, you use that word too much; rather 'nearly crazy'. Especially if you're an introvert.

That guy is no Joker. He is malicious. Like Lucifer. He deliberately causes harm. Why? Because it pleases him shortterm. While he is a longterm person. NT. He ignores his nature and abuses his mind.

He seems very nice to me.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

That guy is no Joker. He is malicious. Like Lucifer. He deliberately causes harm. Why? Because it pleases him shortterm. While he is a longterm person. NT. He ignores his nature and abuses his mind.

For the record the Joker is pretty bad ass and a much more interesting character than Batman even. But this shit is golden. Keep em' coming!

- - - Updated - - -

He seems very nice to me.

Except when I'm drunk with a frying pan.

 

[Cowardly]

Except when I'm drunk with a frying pan.

Can you put that 'e' in your new signature? It drives me nuts.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

Can you put that 'e' in your new signature? It drives me nuts.

I'd prefer to maintain the purity and brilliance of it's original form.