"Sly Digs"

[Pionart]

So, someone on here mentioned this term a little while ago, and I wanted to learn a bit about this phenomenon.

It's when someone insults you indirectly, pretty much. They might say it ambiguously to you, or not even to you but about you, and so you'll hear it. It will never be explicitly mentioned that you are the person referred to, although there will generally be certain details about what is said that make it hard to think otherwise.

So, I take it that the motive for doing so is to psychologically attack a person, while not providing any clear evidence that that is what you are doing.

The effects of this are to lower the self-esteem and integrity of the target, resulting in large amounts of emotional pain, through confusion, sadness, anger, etc. In fact, this is generally the result even if what was said is not explicitly insulting. The occurrence of psychological manipulation of this form is simply painful.

You could say that this thread is a sly dig, but the thing is you (I) can't really directly confront someone engaging in this behaviour because they hide it and deny it, so there's not a lot in the way of alternatives.

So, questions:
- have you experienced this, either to yourself or someone else? what are your thoughts on it?
- why do you think people do this? is my characterisation of it as "psychological abuse from the safety of the shadows" fairly accurate?
- how do you deal with this sort of behaviour? whether it be learning to identify it when it occurs, letting it not effect you etc?
- have YOU ever done this sort of thing, and why? be brave...

 

[Kheledon]

I have done this, quite recently, in fact. I was embarrassed by my behavior and apologized for it later, but it still weighs on my conscience.

I hardly notice when someone does it to me. Unless it's pointed out to me by a third party, such "sly dogs" fly right over my head. I am naive in this way.

 

[GIjade]

So, someone on here mentioned this term a little while ago, and I wanted to learn a bit about this phenomenon.

It's when someone insults you indirectly, pretty much. They might say it ambiguously to you, or not even to you but about you, and so you'll hear it. It will never be explicitly mentioned that you are the person referred to, although there will generally be certain details about what is said that make it hard to think otherwise.

It's called passive aggressive behavior. Passive aggressive people get off on this sort of thing. They feel they can get away with it because there's nothing you can really say to them to make them own up to it.

So, I take it that the motive for doing so is to psychologically attack a person, while not providing any clear evidence that that is what you are doing.

Yes, it's the coward's way of attacking someone.

The effects of this are to lower the self-esteem and integrity of the target, resulting in large amounts of emotional pain, through confusion, sadness, anger, etc. In fact, this is generally the result even if what was said is not explicitly insulting. The occurrence of psychological manipulation of this form is simply painful.

I think it's more frustrating than anything else. The "victim" has no recourse.

You could say that this thread is a sly dig, but the thing is you (I) can't really directly confront someone engaging in this behaviour because they hide it and deny it, so there's not a lot in the way of alternatives.

Exactly. My entire family is like this. It's a stupid game they play. I just try to ignore them now.

So, questions:
- have you experienced this, either to yourself or someone else? what are your thoughts on it?
- why do you think people do this? is my characterisation of it as "psychological abuse from the safety of the shadows" fairly accurate?
- how do you deal with this sort of behaviour? whether it be learning to identify it when it occurs, letting it not effect you etc?
- have YOU ever done this sort of thing, and why? be brave...

- Yes. My thoughts are written above.
- I think they're cowards and I think your characterization is very accurate.
- That depends on what it is they're doing. Sometimes I ignore them, other times I think about hurting them. But all in all, they are, as you say, in the safety of the shadows, and you really can't do much unless you want to make yourself look crazy.
- I have never done this sort of thing and never will. As I said, its the coward's way and I am not a coward.

 

[LovecraftianMonstrosity]

I associate this with Elitism, at least in some contexts.

 

[Pionart]

It's called passive aggressive behavior. Passive aggressive people get off on this sort of thing. They feel they can get away with it because there's nothing you can really say to them to make them own up to it.

Yes, it's the coward's way of attacking someone.

Ah yes, passive aggression... how toxic. If there's something that needs to be said to someone, it is most helpful to say it directly.

Of course, if the purpose is not to help, but to "get off on [it]", then that's not going to happen.

I think it's more frustrating than anything else. The "victim" has no recourse.

This depends. As you said, if you were to do something about it, you would look crazy. So, it could lead to the person themselves thinking they're crazy.

Insults/bullying in general can lead to many negative consequences, so it's then a balancing act between between feeling hurt and feeling crazy. In which case...

Exactly. My entire family is like this. It's a stupid game they play. I just try to ignore them now.

...it would be best to simply ignore it.

Beyond this, it's a matter of knowing who to trust - who actually has your best interests at heart.

- Yes. My thoughts are written above.
- I think they're cowards and I think your characterization is very accurate.
- That depends on what it is they're doing. Sometimes I ignore them, other times I think about hurting them. But all in all, they are, as you say, in the safety of the shadows, and you really can't do much unless you want to make yourself look crazy.
- I have never done this sort of thing and never will. As I said, its the coward's way and I am not a coward.

This sums up my own stance, although I'll add that it's not so much a matter of wanting to hurt the person in any kind of cruel way, but to get acknowledgement of how the behavior effects people, so that hopefully they will change their behavior in the future, or at the very least help the victim gain closure if it's something they need.

It saddens me a great deal that people do this sort of thing.

 

[Hawthorne]

Anyone who's spent any significant amount of time in a social environment has both received and done this - sometimes deliberately or in the heat of the moment.

When I see or hear something that sounds like one, unless I'm reasonably sure it's about me, I assume it isn't. Even when it is, usually the person it's coming from is irrelevant enough that it's easily dismissed. If it's from someone I'm close to or otherwise respect, I'll give the comment some consideration.

I somewhat disagree with your characterization. I don't think it's inherently abusive because I don't see criticism as inherently abusive. I also disagree that it's inherently an attack on one's character or psychological integrity, rather it could just be private censure of someone's behavior. Of course, it can be used maliciously (to the point of bullying/harassment), and I can think of at least one way to confirm if someone is constantly digging at you and how to get them to stop but it requires a bit of self-control and playing the long game.

Perhaps we are talking about the different things though?

 

[Evo]

I hate that shit.

I don't know if I do it though. If I do, I don't mean to.

I assert a question to clarify what the person is saying intentions-wise.

Their response is often candid enough because they're caught off guard, and from there real discussion progresses

 

[Pionart]

Anyone who's spent any significant amount of time in a social environment has both received and done this - sometimes deliberately or in the heat of the moment.

When I see or hear something that sounds like one, unless I'm reasonably sure it's about me, I assume it isn't. Even when it is, usually the person it's coming from is irrelevant enough that it's easily dismissed. If it's from someone I'm close to or otherwise respect, I'll give the comment some consideration.

I somewhat disagree with your characterization. I don't think it's inherently abusive because I don't see criticism as inherently abusive. I also disagree that it's inherently an attack on one's character or psychological integrity, rather it could just be private censure of someone's behavior. Of course, it can be used maliciously (to the point of bullying/harassment), and I can think of at least one way to confirm if someone is constantly digging at you and how to get them to stop but it requires a bit of self-control and playing the long game.

Perhaps we are talking about the different things though?

I don't see criticism as abusive at all (unless it is of course, but that is a separation of events). Rather, this is a psychological attack.

I am not talking about a single person doing it, but whole linked social circles. Thus it is a form of group covert bullying.

I don't know what you mean by "private censure".

If it comes from someone close, what is it you consider about it?

As this is by definition cruelty, I would consider staying away from the person.

You say that with self-control and being in it for the long-run, it could be determined if it is done and stopped. I am an IJ type, and thus have self-control and long-term goal setting capabilities with follow through.

But when multiple people do it, how is it stopped? No, not how, but does your method work?

If it does not, then I shall devise a method of my own division, and if it does, then I shall figure it out myself.

 

[Pionart]

I hate that shit.

I don't know if I do it though. If I do, I don't mean to.

I assert a question to clarify what the person is saying intentions-wise.

Their response is often candid enough because they're caught off guard, and from there real discussion progresses

Since my discovery of the Sly Dig, I have used it on a few occassions, while under high levels of stress. This was under the belief that this is a phenomena to help a person, given the idea that trauma leads to high levels of though such as development of the inferior function.

I have questioned intention as it has happened. This has been dismissed. For I am psychologically impaired due to mental illness, and thus as the "boy who cried wolf", can have any accussations thrown back at me as paranoia.

This is a ridiculous situation.

 

[violet_crown]

 

[ZNP-TBA]

Sly digs this thread.

 

[Evo]

Since my discovery of the Sly Dig, I have used it on a few occassions, while under high levels of stress. This was under the belief that this is a phenomena to help a person, given the idea that trauma leads to high levels of though such as development of the inferior function.

I have questioned intention as it has happened. This has been dismissed. For I am psychologically impaired due to mental illness, and thus as the "boy who cried wolf", can have any accussations thrown back at me as paranoia.

This is a ridiculous situation.

Well all you can do is take responsibility for *your* response.

What I mean is - So what if they think I'm paranoid? If I were to ask someone "Are you trying to make me feel such and such?" They would give me an answer. Often times, if I'm not dealing with a complete psycho, they'll say "no." So then I know that that's not what they're trying to do. And move on. Most of the times, if the person cares they'll ask "Why would you think I thought that?" or whatever... progresses to discussion.

If I'm dealing with a complete asshole, then I know to write that person off. Which is Great! It's better for me to know, and not invest anymore energy into communicating with that person.

 

[Hawthorne]

I don't see criticism as abusive at all (unless it is of course, but that is a separation of events). Rather, this is a psychological attack.

I am not talking about a single person doing it, but whole linked social circles. Thus it is a form of group covert bullying.

Then we're probably talking about different things. When I think of "digs" I think of "telling someone off in a covert way". It's not inherently malicious but based on some other replies of yours, it sounds like you believe the people doing it *are* in fact, being malicious. The approach below might still work since, as [MENTION=14015]Urarienev[/MENTION] said, many people will back off once they realize they aren't as subtle as they think they are and never expect people to call them out on it. Or they just didn't realize how much they were doing it in the first place.

I don't know what you mean by "private censure".

Someone is behaving in a way that doesn't jive with the group so someone may "drop a dig" to make them conscious of what they're doing. The private part is that only the digger, diggee, and a handful or really attentive people would notice so it minimizes public embarrassment while still getting a real time result. It's on par with making a lighthearted joke to point out someone is being as ass only without the joke part and less warm than lighthearted but without mean intent.

If it comes from someone close, what is it you consider about it?

If someone I'm on positive to neutral terms with digs at me: "Am I behaving in a away that is consistently annoying/offending/hurting someone without realizing it?"

You say that with self-control and being in it for the long-run, it could be determined if it is done and stopped. I am an IJ type, and thus have self-control and long-term goal setting capabilities with follow through.

But when multiple people do it, how is it stopped? No, not how, but does your method work?

If it does not, then I shall devise a method of my own division, and if it does, then I shall figure it out myself.

If it's just a few people in a larger group, you stop it by playing social politics. It's a long and exhausting game that really shouldn't have to exist but unfortunately there are people out there that make it so. If playing political games isn't your thing then your choices are basically limited to cutting ties or taking on Cyclops with an air-dart gun and hoping you hit the eye (ie calling them out with no evidence or support and hoping others will stand with you).

If it's the entire group, see the last sentence of the line above.

First you'd privately ask them if there's a problem and try to clear the air. It might end there. If it doesn't end there, you can start by soft mentioning your suspicions to someone you're on good terms with who also run in that group. The more well-liked or neutral the person, the better. If the digging continues while they're present, see if they start noticing it and if so, continue pointing it out to others. If it gets to the point of reporting or confrontation, you're in a better position because you've already 1) tried to resolve the problem peacefully on your own 2) made people aware of what's happening. It's basically just asking others to start paying attention and giving them time to reach their own conclusions, checking in on them ever so often to see where they stand and waiting until the right moment to confront the digger directly - ideally with more people supporting your side than theirs. If the group is close knit enough, it shouldn't be hard to get others to care. If it's not then you'll have to do some politicking by essentially making yourself more valuable to the group than the people who are screwing with you such that losing you is more troublesome than dealing with/losing the diggers.

If you're asking if I've personally done the above, yes, multiple times. Most apologize, stop, and it never progresses past step 1. Three instances where it didn't: one lied about not doing anything and kept stirring up shit, one got pissed off and decided to wage a war of his own, and one was some run-of-the-mill childhood bullying. The first ended cleanly because the person started shit in their own house. The second went to confrontation and while it was a "success" there were also a few "casualties". The third I was too young, stuck in my head, and socially oblivious to know how to handle but it too was essentially resolved by "which kid has the better reputation for this sort of thing".

 

[Tilt]

I am probably more skilled at this than I would like to admit...

 

[Yama]

If anyone does this to me then I'm too stupid to notice.

 

[Pionart]

Then we're probably talking about different things. When I think of "digs" I think of "telling someone off in a covert way". It's not inherently malicious but based on some other replies of yours, it sounds like you believe the people doing it *are* in fact, being malicious. The approach below might still work since, as [MENTION=14015]Urarienev[/MENTION] said, many people will back off once they realize they aren't as subtle as they think they are and never expect people to call them out on it. Or they just didn't realize how much they were doing it in the first place.

The definition of "cruel" is "wilfully causing pain or suffering to others, or feeling no concern about it". So, I say that if it is not wilfull infliction of suffering, then, apart from the obvious problem with inability to read minds, it seems they feel no concern about it.

I know people in real life who know exactly how sensitive I am to this, and they still do it. I questioned for a long time if they really were, but sometimes it is so non-subtle that I have to accept that it is the case.

Someone is behaving in a way that doesn't jive with the group so someone may "drop a dig" to make them conscious of what they're doing. The private part is that only the digger, diggee, and a handful or really attentive people would notice so it minimizes public embarrassment while still getting a real time result. It's on par with making a lighthearted joke to point out someone is being as ass only without the joke part and less warm than lighthearted but without mean intent.

I understand this if the digger and diggee have a common knowledge of the event, and an understanding that it is acceptable. If this were true, then in private the digger would admit to the diggee that they did this, there would be no issue. The intent hear appears to be to help, not hinder.

If someone I'm on positive to neutral terms with digs at me: "Am I behaving in a away that is consistently annoying/offending/hurting someone without realizing it?"

I find that if I'm not directly told, then I won't know if I am or not.

If it's just a few people in a larger group, you stop it by playing social politics. It's a long and exhausting game that really shouldn't have to exist but unfortunately there are people out there that make it so. If playing political games isn't your thing then your choices are basically limited to cutting ties or taking on Cyclops with an air-dart gun and hoping you hit the eye (ie calling them out with no evidence or support and hoping others will stand with you).

If it's the entire group, see the last sentence of the line above.

First you'd privately ask them if there's a problem and try to clear the air. It might end there. If it doesn't end there, you can start by soft mentioning your suspicions to someone you're on good terms with who also run in that group. The more well-liked or neutral the person, the better. If the digging continues while they're present, see if they start noticing it and if so, continue pointing it out to others. If it gets to the point of reporting or confrontation, you're in a better position because you've already 1) tried to resolve the problem peacefully on your own 2) made people aware of what's happening. It's basically just asking others to start paying attention and giving them time to reach their own conclusions, checking in on them ever so often to see where they stand and waiting until the right moment to confront the digger directly - ideally with more people supporting your side than theirs. If the group is close knit enough, it shouldn't be hard to get others to care. If it's not then you'll have to do some politicking by essentially making yourself more valuable to the group than the people who are screwing with you such that losing you is more troublesome than dealing with/losing the diggers.

Ok, makes sense. The problem is that I tend to be an outsider to the groups I am in. This has the effect of pushing me away even further - yet, when I ask, I am told that I am a valuable member of the group.

If I am explicitly complimented, and implicitly attacked, this leaves me in a very confused situation - basically a sense of "run, it's a trap!".

If you're asking if I've personally done the above, yes, multiple times. Most apologize, stop, and it never progresses past step 1. Three instances where it didn't: one lied about not doing anything and kept stirring up shit, one got pissed off and decided to wage a war of his own, and one was some run-of-the-mill childhood bullying. The first ended cleanly because the person started shit in their own house. The second went to confrontation and while it was a "success" there were also a few "casualties". The third I was too young, stuck in my head, and socially oblivious to know how to handle but it too was essentially resolved by "which kid has the better reputation for this sort of thing".

Hopefully I can achieve this myself. I probably need a lot of time to recover, though.

 

[Pionart]

I am probably more skilled at this than I would like to admit...

Could you share light on it, then?

I take it that you are saying that this is something you personally do to people. Can you please explain the purpose of it (for you)?

If anyone does this to me then I'm too stupid to notice.

I don't want to say "ignorance is bliss"... but I envy you.

Well all you can do is take responsibility for *your* response.

What I mean is - So what if they think I'm paranoid? If I were to ask someone "Are you trying to make me feel such and such?" They would give me an answer. Often times, if I'm not dealing with a complete psycho, they'll say "no." So then I know that that's not what they're trying to do. And move on. Most of the times, if the person cares they'll ask "Why would you think I thought that?" or whatever... progresses to discussion.

If I'm dealing with a complete asshole, then I know to write that person off. Which is Great! It's better for me to know, and not invest anymore energy into communicating with that person.

I feel in these situations like pointing things out would do damage. I am under the impression that it would be far better in the long run, and it is only the paralysis of anxiety which prevents me from doing this, but I generally cannot help it.

I have shared my feelings of paranoia regarding people with them, if I am close enough to them. They tend to say that it is purely coincidental that I think this.

I am myself amazed by the seemingly statistical impossibility of these coincidences, yet I am aware that the spiritual background which permeates the physical world does allow for such things.

Furthermore, I have a tendency to read these things into many places where they are not, and I am fully aware of this. I am under the belief that I have this kind of hypervigiliance because I have been made a victim of this.

 

[Yama]

I don't want to say "ignorance is bliss"... but I envy you.

I can't tell if people are making fun of me or not when they're talking to me. But sometimes I get this vibe like people are being condescending and it bothers me. Sometimes I go home and realize they might have actually been mocking me. It doesn't happen a lot though.

 

[Pionart]

I can't tell if people are making fun of me or not when they're talking to me. But sometimes I get this vibe like people are being condescending and it bothers me. Sometimes I go home and realize they might have actually been mocking me. It doesn't happen a lot though.

Well, if the vibe was condescension, I would guess that they were in fact being condescending, although they were probably not quite aware of that (depending on who they are, of course).

Sometimes people respond to the things I say as if I were myself being condescending or mockful, and I am generally shocked that I was coming across in such a manner. I will admit that I am probably very arrogant, but I do try to treat others as equals.

I am also very often misunderstood as being condescending when I am almost certain that I am not. For example, I might laugh at something someone says or does because I thought it was great, but sometimes people think I was laughing for different reasons, and I'll be attacked for it. Like, seriously, even just thinking about that makes me want to cry.

I understand that I do see things in a different way to most people. I'm not saying that most people see things the same way, but that people tend to not really "get" me, for whatever reason.

 

[Pionart]

Sly digs this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwTZ2xpQwpA