Why Men Kill themselves

[SpankyMcFly]

I agree with that statement. Despite many people who don't espouse these values at least intellectually if nothing else, men in society, as a whole, are often valued based on the power and influence they wield. I guess it's probably always been that way. It's why a male's identity is often connected to their career.

Exactly That 'career' can be unpaid (it's a culture thing), it's not necessarily a 'corporate' thing, although that is the one of the ones in favor. It can be clergyman, monk, starving artist, heck even thugs/street gang members qualify. Thug Lyfe

Work to discover our your strengths and weaknesses and utilize them to the best of our ability or perish and die, that has been the prescription for life for men for milllenia. Just DO.

I can speak to the one person I knew well who committed suicide. He was married with two kids and very successful in his career. He had recently moved into a big and fancy house and seemed to have a very happy life from the outside. He was a very good father. Then he lost his job. Unfortunately for a variety of reasons, he did not end up getting another one. First he lost his house. Then he lost his wife - who had always been somewhat materialistic. Then he lost his family. Then he ran into serious money problems. In the end, I guess he saw no way out. He died of carbon monoxide poisoning in his garage. It was probably a 10 year period between when he lost his job and when he committed suicide.

It is a strange case in one way because he is a guy who always had a lot going for him - smart, good looking, hard working, funny, a leader, and a reliable and trusted friend to many. He went to church every week. He is someone who always seemed to have his shit together. I believe he must have suffered from depression though he never told me that. I don't know if he told any of his friends. Circumstances no doubt played a part in fueling that depression. Nobody knew how much he was struggling and it took everyone by surprise. There is a part of me who will always blame his wife for not sticking with him and supporting him - helping him get out of the rut he put himself in - which I believe was very much self imposed. Of course, I will never know how hard she tried, what she did to try and help him and you never know all that is going on in someone's personal life. All I know is that they divorced within a couple years of him losing his job. She said she "couldn't live that way" - in a rented house, etc. She left when they lost the house. It "was all his fault" and she told him "you said we were going to be rich".

Thanks for sharing that Highlander.

Question, was your friend a sole provider?

In either case, I think the dual earner family is becoming the norm, if for no other reason than to compete with the Joneses. This development may help men deal with a loss of income more readily when their partner can pickup the slack.

 

[SpankyMcFly]

I'm not gay and so find your sausage fest gatherings pretty unappealing if that's alright.

There are women folk too ya know. What is the 'proper' sausage ratio for you to feel comfortable? You should try it out, [MENTION=9627]Xann[/MENTION] would love to talk with you about some of the books you've read.

 

[SpankyMcFly]

I probably could write more in response, but typing on a smartphone is frustrating

Phone typing and linking is beyond frustrating, it's like getting water boarded at times.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Phone typing and linking is beyond frustrating, it's like getting water boarded at times.

Yeah, I have a hard enough time typing as fast as my thoughts are flowing with a keyboard, so doing it on a phone or tablet is 20 times as difficult. Plus, I tend to go back and edit my posts a lot to fix grammar, refine thoughts to make more sense, etc, which is almost too much trouble with a touchscreen and big, clumsy manfingers.

Is there a mobile friendly version of this site?

 

[entropie]

I am always trying to use a "Voice-to-written-word" client, but it does not understand the german accent and beer xD

 

[Starry]

I haven't had a chance to read the articles but will say this in the off-chance it is meaningful in anyway...

I work with a fair number of male inmates and while "feminism" has never been named as the cause of their crimes..."toxic masculinity" frequently is.

 

[uumlau]

Men in this thread: what do you envision as an ideal resolution to the issues implied in the OP? What would healthy expectations for men look like--either from themselves, other men or the women in their lives?

In your view, what can women do to support men in terms of this issue?

I think the irony here is that in a lot of cases, the men who end up committing suicide have done so because because of divorce and the depression that followed. They've LOST the woman in their life and possibly even their children. In other words, a specific woman decides that supporting her man really isn't worth her time. There isn't really much that women can do about that as a class. The huge split between suicide rates may partially have to do with the tendency that men only have a few lifelines of emotional support in their lives, and they generally don't regularly build them up. Women on the other hand, would appear to have much better social networks geared towards emotional support. If so, it would follow that men would tend to have less personal support built up when something significant like a divorce happens.

In my personal case, I've learned in later years to build up such networks and friendships. I've some very good friends who are always there when I need them, especially emotionally. Guess which "gender" those emotionally supportive friends tend to be? Yep: they're mostly women. Some of the male friends I have are also supportive, but it only goes so far. The women will listen and not judge (at least not right away!). The men will listen for a while, but invariably they can only take so much before saying things like, "quit feeling sorry for yourself."

 

[Rasofy]

If you feel the issue to be basically irreconcilable, why are you so upset about it?

Human nature can be dissapointing

 

[entropie]

I think the irony here is that in a lot of cases, the men who end up committing suicide have done so because because of divorce and the depression that followed. They've LOST the woman in their life and possibly even their children. In other words, a specific woman decides that supporting her man really isn't worth her time. There isn't really much that women can do about that as a class. The huge split between suicide rates may partially have to do with the tendency that men only have a few lifelines of emotional support in their lives, and they generally don't regularly build them up. Women on the other hand, would appear to have much better social networks geared towards emotional support. If so, it would follow that men would tend to have less personal support built up when something significant like a divorce happens.

In my personal case, I've learned in later years to build up such networks and friendships. I've some very good friends who are always there when I need them, especially emotionally. Guess which "gender" those emotionally supportive friends tend to be? Yep: they're mostly women. Some of the male friends I have are also supportive, but it only goes so far. The women will listen and not judge (at least not right away!). The men will listen for a while, but invariably they can only take so much before saying things like, "quit feeling sorry for yourself."

Very very wise words ! But they still dont know male emotionality. After the breakup from my girl, the last thing I needed was a friend. I needed jägermeister, lots of it. If I had a friend in that time, who wanted to help me, I'ld have verbally beaten him up till monsterness. And if there still was the really slim chance to have a friend who knew all that and knew how you react and what you do. In the end its my decision. Men like drama.

 

[Yama]

I think anyone who is interested in the topic of toxic masculinity and how it relates to feminism would really enjoy the book Angry White Men by Michael Kimmel. I read it a few months ago for a class I was taking, and it really is very fascinating.

Angry White Men: American Masculinity at the End of an Era: Michael Kimmel: 9781568585130: Amazon.com: Books

 

[uumlau]

Very very wise words ! But they still dont know male emotionality. After the breakup from my girl, the last thing I needed was a friend. I needed jägermeister, lots of it. If I had a friend in that time, who wanted to help me, I'ld have verbally beaten him up till monsterness. And if there still was the really slim chance to have a friend who knew all that and knew how you react and what you do. In the end its my decision. Men like drama.

I'm not saying that I'm not susceptible to that part.

There is alone-time processing, but it also helps to have a friend you trust that helps you with untelling all the lies you tend to tell yourself during such times.

 

[entropie]

I'm not saying that I'm not susceptible to that part.

There is alone-time processing, but it also helps to have a friend you trust that helps you with untelling all the lies you tend to tell yourself during such times.

Definitly true. But only if you dont like drama and have a strong self-written--conciencse.

 

[Rasofy]

Since people seem unable to stop with the "toxic masculinity" theme, I find this article to be relevant:

Http://www.returnofkings.com/78208/...nal-is-rewarded-with-sex-from-beautiful-women

I know many of you strongly dislike Returnofkings, and there are valid reasons for that, but I'd expect intelectually honest people to address the argument instead of the source.

 

[Lark]

Should start a thread about why men kill, let alone themselves, because its mainly them doing it.

 

[Lark]

There are women folk too ya know. What is the 'proper' sausage ratio for you to feel comfortable? You should try it out, [MENTION=9627]Xann[/MENTION] would love to talk with you about some of the books you've read.

Only thing I like less than LGBT is libertarianism and I'm sure its a right oul' gathering of those sorts of people.

 

[violet_crown]

I think the irony here is that in a lot of cases, the men who end up committing suicide have done so because because of divorce and the depression that followed. They've LOST the woman in their life and possibly even their children. In other words, a specific woman decides that supporting her man really isn't worth her time. There isn't really much that women can do about that as a class. The huge split between suicide rates may partially have to do with the tendency that men only have a few lifelines of emotional support in their lives, and they generally don't regularly build them up. Women on the other hand, would appear to have much better social networks geared towards emotional support. If so, it would follow that men would tend to have less personal support built up when something significant like a divorce happens.

I've heard this before. Why do men tend to have more limited support systems? Is it because of what you mentioned in the second part about men feeling they have to tell each other to "be tough" instead of supportive to each other?

 

[entropie]

I've heard this before. Why do men tend to have more limited support systems? Is it because of what you mentioned in the second part about men feeling they have to tell each other to "be tough" instead of supportive to each other?

Partly. But partly because we do talk more less in general with our kind. A sole quantity thing. Why that is so ? I dont know.

Guess the open talk between our kind isnt so open as we think. With NT people I can talk very open and free. Rest of the world, not so. Thats more a fight in size.

 

[Lark]

Men in this thread: what do you envision as an ideal resolution to the issues implied in the OP? What would healthy expectations for men look like--either from themselves, other men or the women in their lives?

In your view, what can women do to support men in terms of this issue?

[MENTION=9627]Xann[/MENTION] [MENTION=13260]Rasofy[/MENTION] [MENTION=8584]SpankyMcFly[/MENTION] [MENTION=19700]Anaximander[/MENTION]

(Other dudes are welcomed to contribute as well, of course.)

I'm not a big fan of this whole victim culture, stranger validation cultural matrix thing.

 

[entropie]

I'm not a big fan of this whole victim culture, stranger validation cultural matrix thing.

Saying what you feel, can make you a aggressor at times

 

[Lark]

Replacing a patriarchy with a matriarchy would not do any favours for people seeking true gender egalitarianism. That said, I have no problems with a matriarchy myself as long as the women are up to my personal specifications, but these are very few and far between and do not represent the gender as a whole by far, and tend to veer towards being statistical anomalies of both IQ and positive life experiences, and I think a work of science-fiction based on an imaginary universe written by a feminist is not sufficient to convince me that embarking upon this route would lead to a favourable outcome for our species. With the same stroke you could also say that a patriarchy wouldn't be objectionable to any women once properly understood as well, the vast majority of happy and prosperous societies of history have had a patriarchal slant, of course.

Yeah, patriarchy and matriarchy are totally and utterly different in character, patriarchy is not something that has any redeeming qualities and isnt something that most men would feel any ownership of and rightly so, its not a case of men in charge vs. women in charge and not much different besides that. I've experienced some pretty authoritarian and patriarchal female bosses, usually because they feel compelled to out "man" the "men".

I'm not looking to convince you of anything, if I where I'd only expect to encounter a lot of defensiveness anyway and that would be a waste of both our times, although since you're entirely unacquainted with the ideas of feminism or matriarchy in any respect what so ever besides the negative and biased second hand sources available from anti-feminists I'd continue to invite you to read it. I dont consider an imaginary account to be invalid, if you've read Adam Smith's Theory of Moral Sentiments or any other works from the Scottish Enlightenment you'd know how important a quality that is in any respect, most theory of mind involves the capacity for imagination, what do you think intuition is based upon?

To describe patriarchal societies as happy and prosperous is a little like praising nazi germany for full employment BTW.

- - - Updated - - -

Saying what you feel, can make you a aggressor at times

Well either that or a simpering, whiney, coward.