[Fi] Rant about Fi

[Poki]

Just an update here: not trying to derail. Me and the enfp went out to dinner tonight and he started talking about his mom. How she didn't know what to get him for Xmas and he actually knew what he would want (he is the worst to shop for.) and never knows.

He is a musician. Went to Berklee. He knows his shit. But he is branching out to learn cello. So, he would like cello lessons. He is telling me this. But his voice and descriptions read as tho he is complaining that now he has to take initiative to find the right teacher, etc or his mom may get one that isn't going to challenge him. Etc. He is going on about this.

So me being me, I kind of try to give him solutions. Well, you could try A, etc.....Then it hit me....

I asked him point blank: "Are you complaining to me or are you explaining?" He said, "explaining".

Ok. Whoa. I told him he sounded like he was unhappy with the situation and so I was trying to help him out.

He was surprised, I was surprised and we both had an "aha" moment into each others processes for that time. Kind of cool.

I kind of learned that his explaining is my version of complaining (i.e. a problem to be solved). Probably vice versa. Anyway, that may seem small but it is big in conflict resolution.

I thinks it's just Fi expression coming out in explanation. My GF does that. I usually make some suggestions, help out if I can. If nothing works I just mentally say screw it. That's one way we really get along, because she is so independent we have our own paths and are not completely reliant or anything. If my ideas don't help she goes elsewhere or the internet, gotta love extroverts for this. Just do something to switch feelings when they are done. It's just stuff rolling around in thier mind. Sometimes I can help, sometimes I cant.

 

[wolfy]

Fi just kinda sucks.

Too sensitive and too dramatic. I admire the sovereignty of spirit but not the upheaval that usually accompanies it.

*EDIT*

Maybe that's a bit harsh, but learning to sift through criticism is an important skill and I don't think a lot of introverted feelers bother with it.

This reminded me of something someone else said. They said I couldn't be isfp because isfp were whiny. I don't understand the dramatic stereotype when fi is supposed to be unseen mostly.

 

[Cellmold]

This reminded me of something someone else said. They said I couldn't be isfp because isfp were whiny. I don't understand the dramatic stereotype when fi is supposed to be unseen mostly.

Maybe you're a well balanced and developed individual. My opinion is somewhat knee jerk and obviously biased by personal experience (all anyone really goes off when it comes to typology) but it could be to do with individual values from Fi to Fi.

So it is buried somewhat down and unseen, until you somehow tread on a value. The really dramatic Fi stereotypes probably come from Fi doms completely ignoring inferior Te influences or having unrealistic notions of what freedom means when it comes to doing or saying without direct harm.

I've heard a few Fi doms (not necessarily on here) express an idea of "I'd rather be ignored than have people comment" when they say things. But that's naive in the extreme.

If you're free to express so is anyone else and that includes the freedom to criticise or hold opinion, even about what someone says. You can't spend your life trying to avoid or shut down dislikeable opinions, or else be nothing and don't bother interacting at all.

 

[Starry]

So this question is what I'm really aiming at. In professional settings, I don't have much issue working with Fi. Mainly because there is a greater focus on both parties to get the job done. A neutral objective both Fi and Fe can get behind. I'm not a "There's a right way and a wrong way to do something" kind of person. Rather, does the completed work show quality? If yes, cool. I don't care how you got there. Keep it up.

But in my personal relationship with my ENFP (7w6) I'm discovering this Fi/Fe is where we have the most struggle communication wise. Fe hits at my vulnerable point and Fi is pretty strong with him. So, I can get exasperated with being misrepresented in his eyes. It's frustrating because I can see the way he is viewing me but I'm not hitting him in the right spot, so to speak so that he feels my concern, care, love. He knows it in his head but when he hears my Fe, he is conditioned to reject it as control or "guidance" or guilt.

[MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION] said she was raised with Ti/Fe and she sounds a lot like my ENFP. Kind of rebellious toward Fe. Understandably. I just want to say I understand how it could come off as guilt tripping. Because the Fe user is bypassing Fi to get to what they think is more important - the whole. So, I get that. Yet, I have seen that Fi users don't really explain this to Fe users. They stubbornly reject it. Silently even. Then they feel guilty. Now, I don't understand that at all. Honestly. Guilt in itself is foreign to me. But guilt because you may be thought of as selfish (am I reading that right?) is hard to wrap my head around. My ENFP mentions he feels guilt a lot.

I tell him he doesn't owe me anything and I never want him to feel that way ever. We have spoken about it and I have told him that if he feels that from me that it would be the opposite of what I would want. I never want to control him. Never. Ever. It goes against everything I believe in. In that sense, it is hard to see your support be construed in that way. I understand it, but it feels like a rejection.

But if an Fi person wants to reach an Fe person at least halfway (ideally) they would do themselves and the Fe user a good deal of justice to say, "I need you to back up. You're on my junk." Because it lets the Fe user know where the Fi person is emotionally, mentally, etc. It also will strengthen the Fe users confidence in the Fi user.

Fe doesn't want you to tow the line so much as know where your lines fall. At least, if they respect the Fi user.

Because if you think about it, we can't know the collective unless we get a sense of the individuals in that collective as well. It may not be in depth but it's a toe in the water, so to speak. Sort of a "We still good here?" Cool. Let's keep going. Or "We still good here?" No. Okay what do we need change? This is frustrating to Fi because they may not know where they are, or what they think or feel about something when asked. Understandable. But, if that is the case, I don't think it is fair for Fi to hold it against Fe for going ahead with their desires if Fi doesn't make theirs known/doesn't know their desires/opinions at that time and that is a BIG DEAL because it happens. Fi doesn't voice their desires often but I have seen firsthand they can hold resentments without ever voicing displeasure. This can be a no win situation for Fe.

Notice I am using "we". On a side note: Kind of a big deal for me personally to include another in my life and the decisions I make in my life. So, in that sense, Fe can build it's own resentments for not being appreciated for how they are giving or showing value.

EDIT: I edited this to change some paragraphs around and after reading I'm a little sad because are Fi/Fe just at best supposed to "understand" mentally where the other is in intention without ever feeling deeply connected in that realm? Hmm.

Okay, so, there are multiple components to (aspects colliding and feeding) his current condition...a condition I know like the back of my hand and yet gravely doubt my ability to explain using words that have subsequently been ordered by me in such a way that they communicate something that actually makes sense. The good news in many ways is this has absolutely nothing to do with you...his opinion of you...his ultimate reading of who you are at the end of the day. You've done nothing...you're doing nothing to cause or exacerbate his condition with your Fe-cocktail. This is all him and it would be him (around this same time and in this same way) regardless.

The bad news is this has nothing to do with you. You've done nothing...you're doing nothing to cause or exacerbate his condition with your Fe-cocktail...

An absolutely brilliant INFJ forum member that due to their modesty and generosity prefers that others not credit them with their own brilliant ideas and explanations wtf? once described NF as having one foot out of reality and planted firmly in the ideal. We go about our daily lives with two films flickering in front of us... "What is" ...and the epic blockbuster "What we believe with every ounce of our heart, mind and soul should be". Getting the NF...especially an individual from one of the two sets of Extroverted Idealists to turn away from "Should be" and hold hands on the couch with popcorn watching "What is" without them cracking and... within a few days...becoming a dictator of a small nation <- is a feat unto itself. But there are some enneagram points where this impossibility must be mathematically doubled and 7w6 is often one of these spots (is he sx dominant? *starts biting nails a little bit*).

An NF at 7 has it entirely within their range to have nothing planted in reality. And I will tell you this is not something that is or will be apparent to others at all. In fact, from everything I have seen, the more pathological the Positive Outlook (and image for the 2s)...the more adored the 2, 7 or 9 will (seemingly) be. For 7 PO is all about tomorrow. It is living in a happy future that has not happened and is thus a place where anything and everything is possible. More NF 7s than you would ever suspect have one foot in the ideal and the other foot firmly planted in the future.

I have an awareness of your strength and autonomy. I know you would never stay in an unpleasant...let alone degrading, hurtful and/or intolerable situation. And so I will tell you something I simply would not say to another individual... his "Fi protests" are, for the time being, a truly positive thing. He's not running away towards the happy future...he is knowingly or unknowingly sobering-up and currently has a really bad hangover.

I'm losing my edge ever since e5 came calling...but it had always been previously that as long as the person existed (for me) in the realm of possibility ...I could be as wonderful and charming and piss-your-pants-fun as I cared to be. Once I truly love though...once I'm utterly devoted and feel somewhat obligated to re-enter reality's orbit in order to intimately exist with the other person ...that is not going to be a good time for me at first. It's going to be painful and confusing and way harder to imagine myself as 100% awesome 100% of the time. I won't be able to do things like ignore all my failures like I like to do. I'll do it. For the right person I will do it but it's hard and takes time for me to get my bearings and locate our shared space where I trust that while I'm awake and living again in the world where I apparently can't help but do the majority of things wrong...you see those wrongs as rights.

It will take a little time and compassion.

 

[PeaceBaby]

This reminded me of something someone else said. They said I couldn't be isfp because isfp were whiny. I don't understand the dramatic stereotype when fi is supposed to be unseen mostly.

Well, you're also a 9. 9 looks pleasant to others.

 

[wolfy]

Maybe you're a well balanced and developed individual. My opinion is somewhat knee jerk and obviously biased by personal experience (all anyone really goes off when it comes to typology) but it could be to do with individual values from Fi to Fi.

So it is buried somewhat down and unseen, until you somehow tread on a value. The really dramatic Fi stereotypes probably come from Fi doms completely ignoring inferior Te influences or having unrealistic notions of what freedom means when it comes to doing or saying without direct harm.

I've heard a few Fi doms (not necessarily on here) express an idea of "I'd rather be ignored than have people comment" when they say things. But that's naive in the extreme.

If you're free to express so is anyone else and that includes the freedom to criticise or hold opinion, even about what someone says. You can't spend your life trying to avoid or shut down dislikeable opinions, or else be nothing and don't bother interacting at all.

Your opinion is pretty common. I don't know if some functions are more expressive or people. Extroverted types seem ore dramatic with their feeling to me. You are right, if one person is free to choose an action, everyone is free to do that.

Well, you're also a 9. 9 looks pleasant to others.

Maybe. That could be part of it.

 

[FemMecha]

This reminded me of something someone else said. They said I couldn't be isfp because isfp were whiny. I don't understand the dramatic stereotype when fi is supposed to be unseen mostly.

There aren't enough categories available. I'm starting to think the stereotypes actually apply to a minority, but are imposed on the majority, so end up being completely incorrect a lot of the time. For any function I suspect there is more complexity than completely introverting or extroverting it.

 

[prplchknz]

I've said this once and i said again the reason why people think fi is dramatic and blah blah is because

others: OMG fi sucks. you guys don't care you're so dramatic
fi person: uh well actually you're wrong we do care we just don't show it
others: no Fi sucks they are terrible people i can't stand them i'm gonna take every emotional thing and apply it to fi users
fi person: we don't really do all those things and if we do it's not because of fi, fe users do that more often
others: fi is stupid and too emotional and doesn't listen
fi person: you know what screw you
others: OMG it's being dramatic, told you so.

on fi 4 being unique(I might not be a 4)

others: fi tries to be soo unique ugh!
fi 4user: uh not really I just do what i prefer if it fits in with others great if not so what, there is no trying
others: shut up we're trying to complain here

 

[giorgaros2]

This thread just showed how easy it is to troll Fi users and make them upset and angry.

 

[Starry]

This thread just showed how easy it is to troll Fi users and make them upset and angry.

Is that what you were doing? Trolling? Dude, that is so massively against the rules....

Anyway, thank god I don't have to be upset and angry anymore over this thread.

 

[giorgaros2]

Ultimately i was just trying to prove that Fi users can't take criticism
and yes admit it ,you were upsed and angry over this thread

 

[Starry]

Ultimately i was just trying to prove that Fi users can't take criticism

Looks like we've got a new, budding NT scientist in our midst people! Well done, giogaros. Well done.


whoops you edited so now I'm editing...

and yes admit it ,you were upsed and angry over this thread

This thread kept me up at night. Whenever anyone tries to paint Introverted Feeling in a negative light I basically lose my mind ....and then cry.

 

[prplchknz]

so basically you made this thread, fi users argued their point, you kept criticizing til they got mad?

oh no that can't happen with any type ever!

how would you like someone to poke you and you ask them to stop, and they don't? pretty sure your reaction would be more emotional than what happened in this thread. in fact most of the replies are people calmly explaining what fi actually is. that's not responding negatively to criticism that's correcting. but of course your a ti user and don't like to be corrected.

*note i did not read most of them because honestly i don't care as this is like the 78th thread on the topic.

 

[Hawthorne]

People...

Feed It with Fire - TV Tropes

 

[giorgaros2]

I dont care about people criticizing me if what they say is true , for example i agree that as an ENTP i am not organized, i procrastinate a lot , and generally it is less possible for me to succeed than other types.Also i am mediocre with people.See? Although some of these hurt i admit my flaws because i am in the self-growth business not in the self-deception business.

So forget all the other things i said ...Lets talk about Fi 's difficulty with criticism.I believe this is a major weakness for Fi doms especially (from experience with fi).So do you disagree ? And why?

 

[FemMecha]

I dont care about people criticizing me if what they say is true , for example i agree that as an ENTP i am not organized, i procrastinate a lot , and generally it is less possible for me to succeed than other types.Also i am mediocre with people.See? Although some of these hurt i admit my flaws because i am in the self-growth business not in the self-deception business.

So forget all the other things i said ...Lets talk about Fi 's difficulty with criticism.I believe this is a major weakness for Fi doms especially (from experience with fi).So do you disagree ? And why?

One important point about criticism though, are any of the traits you listed as personal flaws important to you? What do you think of other people who procrastinate? What addresses the question of criticism is to point out a flaw in a person that they value as a person. For a T there is the question of intelligence, of being able to think accurately. What if someone accused ENTPs of not being able to think clearly because Ne is too random and can create erratic relationships between concepts that aren't significant? What if ENTPs are accused of being inherently wrong in debate because of their particular functions?

I can't really speak to getting upset about the thread because I'm not entirely concluded on my type, but I don't have much emotion about this thread. I've seen much worse directed at Feelers. At least you weren't demanding everyone using X function confess to your wrongs and publicly apologize, just so everyone can know your type has the capacity to apologize? There was actually a thread like that years ago and that one annoyed the hell out of me.

 

[Amargith]

Unfortunately, you're not exactly the first, nor will you be the last (young?) NT who feels the need to deal with his own discomfort regarding emotions by whining about NFs. And you're hardly the first ENTP to have an irrational dislike of Fi - it is your blindspot for a reason.

Its perceived vulnerability seems to set off anyone who hates looking into the mirror and sees their own vulnerability (which somehow they mistake for weakness), for some reason. And what better way to attack vulnerability and its supposed irrationality than to critique the hell out of it, really. Distance yourself, troll them, stomp it out - that's the way to get rid of that irritation and frustration you're feeling in response to your own discomfort in the face of vulnerability, isn't it? Teach them to be tough and never show any 'weakness' like you, and if they don't want listen, try and make them cry until they surrender. That's how to do it right...right? Forget about the loneliness, detachment and desperation that that can bring forth because you're too afraid to be vulnerable with anyone. Forget about being able to confide in anyone about your inner demons and how flawed you really feel on the inside.

It's understandable to be afraid of your own blindspot - especially when it's being wielded by people who are still..well, for lack of a better word, taming that wild horse and actually master it. Hell, I have an irrational dislike of (unhealthy) Ti myself - though I do marvel at what others can achieve with it when wielded properly. For me, it's the machiavellian feel it has, devoid of empathy that worries me. But it is genius, in its own right. And fused properly with Fe, it becomes

I think the most you found in this thread is a general feeling of ' not this again' , with a patient attempt to try and turn it into an educational thread despite the OP's set up.

I actually think it turned into quite an interesting thread with all the contributions, myself

 

[giorgaros2]

One important point about criticism though, are any of the traits you listed as personal flaws important to you? What do you think of other people who procrastinate? What addresses the question of criticism is to point out a flaw in a person that they value as a person. For a T there is the question of intelligence, of being able to think accurately. What if someone accused ENTPs of not being able to think clearly because Ne is too random and can create erratic relationships between concepts that aren't significant? What if ENTPs are accused of being inherently wrong in debate because of their particular functions?

I can't really speak to getting upset about the thread because I'm not entirely concluded on my type, but I don't have much emotion about this thread. I've seen much worse directed at Feelers. At least you weren't demanding everyone using X function confess to your wrongs and publicly apologize, just so everyone can know your type has the capacity to apologize? There was actually a thread like that years ago and that one annoyed the hell out of me.

This doesnt make sense , iagree i am not the best at logic (IxTPs are) but i think that Ne is objective so i may not be able to think clearly but i am able to see clearly

 

[giorgaros2]

Unfortunately, you're not exactly the first, nor will you be the last (young?) NT who feels the need to deal with his own discomfort regarding emotions by whining about NFs. And you're hardly the first ENTP to have an irrational dislike of Fi - it is your blindspot for a reason.

Its perceived vulnerability seems to set off anyone who hates looking into the mirror and sees their own vulnerability (which somehow they mistake for weakness), for some reason. And what better way to attack vulnerability and its supposed irrationality than to critique the hell out of it, really. Distance yourself, troll them, stomp it out - that's the way to get rid of that irritation and frustration you're feeling in response to your own discomfort in the face of vulnerability, isn't it? Teach them to be tough and never show any 'weakness' like you, and if they don't want listen, try and make them cry until they surrender. That's how to do it right...right? Forget about the loneliness, detachment and desperation that that can bring forth because you're too afraid to be vulnerable with anyone. Forget about being able to confide in anyone about your inner demons and how flawed you really feel on the inside.

It's understandable to be afraid of your own blindspot. Hell, I have an irrational dislike of (unhealthy) Ti myself - though I do marvel at what others can achieve with it when wielded properly. For me, it's the machiavellian feel it has, devoid of empathy that worries me. But it is genius, in its own right. And fused properly with Fe, it becomes

I think the most you found in this thread is a general feeling of ' not this again' , with a patient attempt to try and turn it into an educational thread despite the OP's set up.

I actually think it turned into quite an interesting thread with all the contributions, myself

I think i get finally, that you can't understand Fi logically , you need to shut off logic to understand it.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

I think i get finally, that you can't understand Fi logically , you need to shut off logic to understand it.

No, Fi has its own logic. There are rules and structure, just not like Ti logic. It all makes sense to them, somehow, even if it feels inconsistent and irrational to you. They may not be able to explain how they got there, which is why Ti struggles so hard at understanding it....