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Faith healing vs. modern medicine? (Moved from "Bible in a year" thread)

ZNP-TBA

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This is irrelevant. The USA wasn't founded solely as a Christian nation, and please don't cite the mention of God in the Constitution as a counter-argument, because there was no common consensus or shared religion among the founders (some were Christian, some Unitarian, some Naturalists, et al.). If the USA were intended to be governed and built solely on narrow Christian ideals or dogma, then I think they would have made that more explicit in the founding documents; rather they left it vague to encompass multiple faiths and belief systems.

Also, I think your statement that the USA is influencing other nations to move toward secularism is backwards. If anything, I'd say we're one of the last industrialized/first world nations where such a debate still takes center-stage in politics. It seems the trend among many nations has been toward secularism, and we have followed suit, rather than influencing the rest of the world to embrace secularism.

Yeah, God, Jesus, or Christianity was not mentioned in the body of the U.S. Constitution. There is a misinterpreted reference in the date 'Year of our Lord' which was just a formal way to state A.D.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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It is interesting though, that 'alternative' is not really an apt statement for what many of us on the fringes believe. Believing in natural medicine is more 'traditional'. If anything, 'alternative' it is the new, man-made medicine created within the last century, and even last half century. Allopathic is another word that can be used to describe modern man-made medicine.

Hence my quotation marks. Take it as an ounce of sarcasm (not directed at you). The medical institution has chosen to label it that way and it's kind of stuck, and I don't necessarily agree with that label, therefore I used quotation marks. I don't think said medicine is kooky or new-age (I really hate that term) either, hence the quotation marks placed around those words.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Yeah, God, Jesus, or Christianity was not mentioned in the body of the U.S. Constitution. There is a misinterpreted reference in the date 'Year of our Lord' which was just a formal way to state A.D.

Even if "Our Lord" weren't misinterpreted, that is a term that is fairly broad and could reference multiple religions and beliefs.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Meh. At this point I think I'm just arguing semantics. I'm out.
 

ZNP-TBA

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Even if "Our Lord" weren't misinterpreted, that is a term that is fairly broad and could reference multiple religions and beliefs.

It's a formal way of stating a year in the Julian calendar. It's just a standard dating method. It's not like we're all playing homage to the British monarchy every time Americans measure things in feet ( literally, a king's foot).
 

Dyslexxie

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A cousin of mine believed her mother's cancer would be cured through faith based healing, so she avoided modern medicine because it's an abomination. Her mother died a miserable death because it turns out cancer can't be cured by prayers. Who would've thunk!

That aside, as long as whatever people believe in and follow is helping them have mental strength then go for it and props to ya, but I have a hard time when people entirely avoid modern medicine because their hocus pocus allegedly works better. I don't think it's a 'this versus that' issue, it's an issue of what has proof behind it and has been tested through trial and error (whether successful or not) and something people will use to find inner strength and hope. The latter shouldn't replace the former it should simply complement it if necessary.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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It's a formal way of stating a year in the Julian calendar. It's just a standard dating method. It's not like we're all playing homage to the British monarchy every time Americans measure things in feet ( literally, a king's foot).

Yes, I realize that. Anno Domini. It meant just that...in the year of our lord AKA in the year based on the calendar started at the birth of the Christian Messiah, not, 'this document is a Christian document'

For someone to interpret it as a reference specific to Christianity is silly. It could be interpreted to reference Ahura Mazda or even the Tao. I'm not saying it should be, because as you said, it's little more than a formal dating method.

But if we were to interpret it as something more, there is no reason to limit that interpretation to Jesus or the Christian God, other than the fact that it's a dating system that starts at the supposed birth of Jesus. Basically I'm trying to take fools' logic and turn it back on the fools. And failing miserably.
 

Poki

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It's a formal way of stating a year in the Julian calendar. It's just a standard dating method. It's not like we're all playing homage to the British monarchy every time Americans measure things in feet ( literally, a king's foot).

Certain things you can't take for face value. I am not religious, but alot of people are that are around me. So there is alot of things I say like "thank God" that is more a statement then and nothing more. It doesn't mean I believe, it means I don't reject that notion. I don't reject god or stuff like that as some aethiest do. You will not hear me saying any "worship" type stuff as I do reject the idea of worshipping something. It's how I am designed, I never worshipped my parents as a kid, and I won't worship a God for the sake of worship. I may follow as long as I believe in what he believes in. Basically I am not gonna follow direction blindly without question. I will give a chance and then say no thank, something else. It's kinda like how preachers can preach and it feels right. I have a set of values and it's not feelings, and I have only found one church so far that aligns. But I still can't worship god. That church is built around helping people and thanking god for the chance. I can easily live with that. They have a very short worship and instead say praise God alot which is short lived worship. The main focus is on setting up groups that revolve around helping people, people that struggle that don't follow gods every word. They just want these people to have a better life, not convert them. It's a how can we help you, not a how can we convert you. And they thank God for the ability to do just that. It's a small new church, the first services I went to were outdoors at a lake. They now preach inside another church. The pastor is one who has struggled and surrounded by like and wanted to start a church to help people.
 

Luke O

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Placebo effect. You believe something done to you will make you feel better and it'll make you feel a bit better. If you have an illness that will kill you, but can be cured by proper medicine you will still die though.
 

á´…eparted

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To address the thread at hand. "Faith" healing, meaning to cure a disease, is a complete load of horseshit.

All it can do is help the emotional/psychological aspect in some individuals. Anyone who thinks faith heals disease is completely delusional.
 

Mole

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Modern medicine is based on biology. And biology is based on Natural Selection. And Natural Selection is based on evidence and reason. So modern medicine is evidence based medicine.

On the other hand faith healing is based on faith. And the greater the faith, we are told, the greater the healing. This would be great if it were true, but there is no evidence faith healing works.

However faith healing is a powerful social force because faith healing induces a powerful trance. So when faith healing is defended, they are defending their favourite trance.

Trances are socially important as religion and art are based on trance and the willing suspension of disbelief.

But what is unforgivable about evidence based medicine is that it wakes us from the trance of faith healing. And we don't welcome anyone who wakes us from deep sleep and beautiful dreams.

In fact waking us from the trance of faith healing is seen as atheistic, as an evil and cruel thing to do to innocents.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Meditation and prayer may be good for inducing a balanced state of mind which can in turn affect bodily health. I simply think it's foolish to rely solely on them and discard any other potential medicine or treatment without careful consideration.
 

Mole

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Meditation and prayer may be good for inducing a balanced state of mind which can in turn affect bodily health. I simply think it's foolish to rely solely on them and discard any other potential medicine or treatment without careful consideration.

And as well as religious meditation we now have secular meditation, as set out by Sam Harris in his book, Spirituality Without Religion.

Hear Sam Harris read his book, Spirituality Without Religion, at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCbtskHUODg
 

cascadeco

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From my experiences in non-traditional healing modalities, I think that there is a healing aspect to having an entire community believe a person is going to get better, and there is an important aspect of positive thinking in the individual that helps the healing process. Negativity and hopelessness are hard on the physical body.

There are also serious problems with the medical industry. I know someone who has had surgeries on his lungs after being assaulted. One side-effect has been excruciating pain and doctors were going to give him 100 injections to kill the nerve sensitivity around his ribs. He worked with an Alexander Technique body expert who realized he had muscles stuck between a couple of ribs. She popped them out, the pain has gone away, and he doesn't have to kill all of his nerves. There is a level of idiocy in the medical field that goes directly to pharmaceuticals and surgery.

The body can naturally heal itself on many levels, but it needs to be taken for what it is and not assumed to be the entire cure. Faith healing can become unethical when it makes assumptions about absolute cures based on a ritual or an idea without any accountability or measurements to verify its success. I support positive thinking about healing, support from one's family and community, but reject the arrogance of assuming a word or a ritual from someone can heal anything.

Taking a wholistic, comprehensive approach that leaves no stone unturned, while maintaining humility of thought and assumption, is the best philosophy I know to approach healing.

I think this mostly reflects what I believe.

I don't believe at all in faith healing, but I do believe in psychology and how incredibly powerful our own minds are in impacting our health. And having friends and loved ones. It's known that stress wreaks havoc on the body and immune system. And lack of sleep. And other such things. And completely anecdotally and from personal experience, I know how impactful my own emotional state is on how I feel physically and also how much strength, willpower, and frankly confidence I have in my ability to heal. For many, I think having a faith can create those mental elements but I don't think faith is required to have this framework.

I think one of the main issues with modern medicine is how isolated each field is; thus there's definitely little holistic knowledge, and though I don't think it's their fault, specialists are going to have lots of ignorance of much that's outside their specific field. I think doctors are great, absolutely, but there's also vast knowledge in indigenous cultures remaining on this planet, in terms of herbs, and other more holistic connections. I imagine more of that will be incorporated with time.

Edit: But we are also no different from any other lifeform on this planet in terms of aging, illness, disease, and pain -- our bodies are subject to the same ills everything else on the planet is subject to. So there's that, too. Sometimes it's just time to go, and nothing biologically/medically can be done to arrest that process. I think some cultures, now and past, much better recognized this and were more.. accepting? .. of it. We try to prolong so much these days.... which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but, yeah.

Edit 2: Also, my father got a kidney transplant several years ago, which prevented him from having to start dialysis fairly 'young' as those things go. So modern medicine is super amazing in so many ways, too. :) No amount of positivity would have reversed his shrunken kidneys.
 

1487610420

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Is there scientific proof we can heal ourselves? | Lissa Rankin, MD | TEDxAmericanRiviera

- - - Updated - - -

Is medicine killing you? Lissa Rankin, MD at TEDxFargo

 

Lark

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Meditation and prayer may be good for inducing a balanced state of mind which can in turn affect bodily health. I simply think it's foolish to rely solely on them and discard any other potential medicine or treatment without careful consideration.

Yeah, I was thinking that when I saw the thread title just now, considering the topic per se I dont really see the dichotomy which is set up there as valid.

The placebo effect, including the success of chinese medicine with chinese people, and the importance of "mind over matter", which I hope is not yet too vague and new age sounding, are less understood than would be for the best.
 

1487610420

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Yeah, I was thinking that when I saw the thread title just now, considering the topic per se I dont really see the dichotomy which is set up there as valid.

The placebo effect, including the success of chinese medicine with chinese people, and the importance of "mind over matter", which I hope is not yet too vague and new age sounding, are less understood than would be for the best.

See talks above
 

Mole

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I do believe in psychology

Psychology has taken the part of religion: we believe in psychology rather than believing in God.

And just as we believed in religion without applying evidence and reason, so we believe in psychology also without applying evidence and reason.

More and more the medical establishment in Oz is adopting evidence based medicine, but the psychological establishment is hamstrung by not having a scientific Theory of Psychology, so we are thrown back onto the old religious technique of belief. "I do believe in psychology", we say, as though it is the moral choice.
 

cascadeco

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Psychology has taken the part of religion: we believe in psychology rather than believing in God.

And just as we believed in religion without applying evidence and reason, so we believe in psychology also without applying evidence and reason.

More and more the medical establishment in Oz is adopting evidence based medicine, but the psychological establishment is hamstrung by not having a scientific Theory of Psychology, so we are thrown back onto the old religious technique of belief. "I do believe in psychology", we say, as though it is the moral choice.
Actually I'm referring to what's already known, established via science, when I refer to psychology. Refer to videos [MENTION=6723]phobik[/MENTION] posted re examples. I wasn't talking personality, I'm talking basic elements of how our brain works, and hormones, and biochemistry. Certain psychological states increase levels of one type of hormone, other states change another level, which in turn impacts health, ability to heal. Placebo effect is another general 'psychology' example, which others have mentioned and falls in line with what I was referencing. I don't know what kind of non-evidence psychology you thought I was talking about.
 

Tellenbach

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I don't know if cases of stigmata are real, but if they are real, that would be an excellent example of the mind exerting unusual control over the body. Other unusual physiological effects include body temperature and brain wave control by meditating monks and blood pressure differences in the alters of a patient suffering from dissociative identity disorder.
 
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