Messy/unorganized Js & neat/clean Ps?

[Doctor Cringelord]

I like order and organization but in practice I am a slob.

 

[Virtual ghost]

So typically Js are described as neat & clean & Ps are described as messy & unorganized. While I think that plays out true for a lot of people, I think it can be misleading for others. I also think people can keep their surroundings clean for different reasons. For example, Se users might keep their stuff neat for the aesthetic appeal of it, as opposed to Te users who just prefer their things to be orderly. Also, where does time management skills fall into all of this? How do you define being neat & organized? Have you known any messy Js or any super neat Ps? Are the Js still more organized in other areas? Do any of the stereotypes have merit to them? How does liking or not liking closure come into play? How messy or organized do you consider yourself to be?

Yes, J is much more likely to be neat/clean but I do not think this is trully part of core J definition. In my opinion Js prefer making constant decisions based on their values ... and that may not have nothing to do with having your spaces in orderly fashion. Plus unhealthy J can be messy simply because they have a mess in their heads.


On the other hand P person my have a sense for visual aesthetics or they are very ambitious and therefore they need some degree of order.
Also it is possible that their parents were stereotypical Js and habit of cleaning remained from their childhood.

 

[Ene]

I'm neither hyper organized or extremely unorganized. I'm just somewhere in the middle. I do like things neat and spacious though. I like simplicity in my surroundings and I don't like clutter or having lots of things to keep up with. I don't have time for that.

 

[RobinSkye]

I'm rather a stereotype. I'm messy, easily forget about everything ( so I write everything down in my calendar) and I put things in random places ( keys in the fridge? yep it happened ).

I'm very punctual though.

I'm kind of the opposite. I take the time to have everything understood in my mind. I organize to the point of where I keep things efficient, and want things to be clean as well. I'm late quite often, though.

 

[cascadeco]

I'm displeased by the aesthetics of clutter, so I tend to keep the house rather orderly... not to say that it's in an order that makes sense to anyone else, but there's not clutter lying about

my car, however, is another story... the back seat is covered with clothes, shoes, textbooks, antifreeze, windshield wiper fluid and other things that I keep tossing back there which may be useful at some point and I can't remember to take into the house

I think I'm pretty similar. Aesthetics/surroundings are super important to me, so my house/space is 'organized' in the sense that I don't have stuff lying around, take pleasure in creating my space, and I like putting stuff away. But, at the same time, I think my sense of style/aesthetics is on the more cozy side, so I know I have more things around than some people do; I'm definitely not minimalist. However, inside drawers, inside my closets, not so organized. I do know where things are, though. (I know some people who are kind of opposite - they may have things lying about in their house, but, then they go crazy labeling things in their closets, having everything nice and neat in storage containers, or clothing organized by color and so on -- I am so completely not that!)

Like you, my car is gross. I have some stuff under the car seats/on car floor, and the trunk is a disaster.

Also it is possible that their parents were stereotypical Js and habit of cleaning remained from their childhood.

This, too. I have two SJ parents who fit this J 'organized and always on time' stereotype. I picked up on a lot of that growing up; and had to keep my room clean and so on.

.... I'm also someone who's always on time / have a good sense of time management

 

[small.wonder]

Love this topic, as its one of the things I was confused about when trying to determine which side if the divide I fell on. I am both orderly and free form, but I have begun to understand the why and when.

I'm highly organized when it comes to things and spaces, and very free flowing and open when it comes to ideas, creativity, life decisions, or planning.

Interesting addition to that: when I recently expressed the above to someone, they said, "oh, so you are orderly about details and laxidasical about the big picture." I hadn't thought about it that way, but it's true-- which almost made me wonder, if I'm more comfortable with big picture things because I favor iNtuition, and more stressed about details because I'm Sensing deficient. It kind of makes sense to me.

 

[raissaroars]

I adore and function better in neat/organized spaces, however, my room is always at least a bit messy. Once, when I was in a Ni-Ti loop (it took years), my ESFJ sister found a banana peel hidden in my room. Also back in my Ni-Ti times, she used to take pictures because of how messy it was. I'd dare to say SJs tend to be neat-freaks, but that's not a rule, obviously; my ESFJ sister is the worst when it comes to this, she actually has panic attacks when her room is even slightly messy. But both my grandma and my mom, two ISFJs, prefer to "organize their mess", and my ISTJ grandad completely hates it. He's pretty much like my sister.
Anyway.

 

[Betty Blue]

I tend to be on either side of the spectrum. Actually no, i despise the mundane daily chores in life. Occasionally i go crazy with cleaning... it's not so organised but I do think when i clean i clean really well, possibly even slightly overdoing it. Whereas I notice many people have things that just look clean and tidy and have really good ways of placing things to make them look so.

I had an amazing cleaner who just made the place look and smell clean and tidy and it was really really refreshing when she came, we often had little chats as well and she actually called me a friend which i was really happy about because i hate to think of myself as someone who stands over anyone, i rather like to stand with people.

Organisation is something I really really struggle with, terribly so. I find it soooo hard to keep track of things like bill dates bank balances, appointments, due dates etc. I get very frustrated when people suggest i might not remember things intentionally or i might forget things that are not important to me as I have forgotten some monumentally important things that have been pretty life changing. You'd think after making those kinds of fuck ups i'd have found a better way but i still have not. Though i do find that asking someone else to remember helps. Also writing things down. I often do not re-read my to do lists but the act of writing them seems to gel them into some other part of my brain which maybe relates things better as and when required.

 

[five sounds]

Half-baked theory: I've noticed a lot of ISFPs having better timeliness and all this jazz than other perceives. I wonder if it's a strong tendency toward e6 or sp dominance...

 

[Noll]

I've had difficulty finding the balance up until now. Either I've been too unorganized or too organized.

 

[wolfnara]

I believe the P/J letters are inaccurate in introverted types. I'm an INFP but almost always scored INFJ in MBTI because I am dislike spontaneity and like to be organized.

 

[plastic ciel]

I am a chronically disorganized ISTJ. Believe me, I'm just a mess. Meanwhile, my ENFP friend loses it if something's an inch crooked. Go figure.

 

[Derpravity]

I'm outwardly pretty damn messy, but I think it's because I prioritise everything in my external environment: what to organise to perfection and what not to bother with. For example, I don't clean my apartment very often, unless I'm going to have someone over I want to impress, or the landlord is going to see it. I just don't think it's important what little messes are sitting around that can be cleaned away easily. Permanent damage or disorder, like staining the carpet, is a different story. Messes that might cause problems, like leaving food out to go moldy or attract bugs, is a complete no.

The files on my computer are fairly disorganised, especially when I'm using an OS that has a quick and effective search system. But the stuff I value most, like my writing ideas, interesting snippets of theory, and coursework, is always somewhere specific and automatically backed up.

I always know where to find something because there's always a set place, even if that place is a bit silly (like always leaving my glasses on the living room coffee table at night), and I get really irritated if I have to live with someone who messes up things that I have a certain way.

Myself, I can go a stretch of several days without showering and not mind at all, unless I'm going to be around people who would be uncomfortable or get the wrong idea about me. When I'm at home working on assignments for several days in a row, I might not get out of pajamas or whatever's most comfortable. But when I'm in a situation where I care about how I look, I'm meticulous and will allow several hours to pick my outfit, maybe apply makeup if I want to be more striking (which I don't bother with on a day to day basis, although I used to when I was more insecure), and go through stages of drafting/critiquing my look before I go show myself.

I'm never late to an appointment if I can help it, although I'll often arrange to turn up at my classes at the last minute before they commence because I can think of better ways to use my time than sit around waiting in the classroom or the corridor.

I love sorting out my books and DVD collection, but I won't go by author, title or even genre. I usually set a bunch of categories that have a meaning to me, based on how I use or respond to them. There's always a section that's just "stuff I can always pick up and read/watch and enjoy, whatever the mood," and often "stuff I would recommend most highly to my friends." Often a "stuff I don't like, but it might be fun to analyse and critique" section, where gifts that I didn't really enjoy tend to go. Usually a few loose genre categories, like "teen fiction that's not that bad" or "cerebral sci-fi movies."

(When I was helping Mum unpack and she told me to just shelve her very large DVD collection without sorting it, I found myself arranging anyway by Netflixy categories like "nostalgic baby boomer TV shows" and "feel-good movies starring animals.")

So overall I see myself as a strict prioritiser rather than a regulator. Systematic, but not worried about how apparent that system is to others.

 

[Yama]

I'm like Monica from Friends. My room is always clean and spotless until you look in my closet. Or, well, in my case, my desk drawer. My closet's actually neat and organized too

All in all, though, I think J/P is a terrible way to tell if someone is neat or not. And in a way, isn't organization subjective? Everyone's got their own system regardless of whether others really understand it or not.

 

[Ghost]

My INTJ dad is the messiest person in the family. I'm not saying I'm clean, but wow. After he leaves the dinner table, there's a bed of crumbs on the floor.

He procrastinates an awful lot. He wears mismatched clothes, and they're often inside out. He drives on side roads because he thinks his new route will be quicker, and it rarely is. If you're expecting Js to be tidy and methodical about their physical surroundings, you'd mistype my dad.

My dad is organized when it comes to projects/work plans/finances, and the rest of us aren't so good at that. I guess his J skills work best for the big goals he's trying to realize.

 

[Fun in the Sun]

I'm more concerned with flow than neat and messy. I like a room or my environment to flow together, but I don't like cleaning up after other people all the time. I like my movements to flow smoothly when I'm performing a task. Everything at my own pace....nice and easy

It's an art really.

 

[Chrysanthe]

I believe that organization and cleanliness is more of a learned trait than something directly correlated to the whether you're Pe x Ji or Pi x Je.

As a kid, I actually used to enjoy the process of relocating all my items in an organized manner, and loved to see my room all spotless.

Years and years later, I have decided by choice that cleaning is a task that is not worth the effort, because it doesn't seem to give me any logical benefit. If one can learn to be happy not doing something, then why do it at all? Well unless doing that something rewards you with more happiness than the former.

If there is blatant proof that organization is healthier for the mind than the opposite, then I will change my lifestyle accordingly.


edit: I don't know whether I actually learned to prosper in an unclean environment, or I'm just ignoring my surroundings altogether so as to preserve energy. Or maybe it actually does bother me but I try to convince myself that it doesn't. Or maybe I'm just lazy and depressed. Maybe if I start exercising and building up my energy reserves, cleaning will suddenly rediscover its place in my heart.

tl;dr: I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about, but I still think that J and P are unrelated to the need for cleanliness and order.

 

[Dreamer]

I'm usually pretty clean and organized. It doesn't always look pretty since I may have piles, but the piles are of the same category of "stuff", so the clutter that does show is organized. I'm just not anal about it looking clean down to some precise measurement. I used to be super chaotic with my things, but after working with a time management coach while in college, I learned how much of an effect a clean environment can have on my mind. I have a persistently cluttered mind, so being in a cluttered space I find, only exacerbates any stress or anxiety present already.

 

[pinkgraffiti]

Yup true. Im quite mentally methodic and like to have things around organized. Especially if im stress, as it makes me think im in control. Thats probably the Te-Si in me.
But im not anal about it, i dont think about it, and if im focused on something interesting i can forget about cleaning for weeks. I dont think a J would be like that. My INFP partner is so disorganized and has shit Te. So we both tend to disorganize the house, until a week will go by and i will finally notice that things are disorganized and i will shout that we have to clean everything. Kinda like that...

 

[pinkgraffiti]

I'm usually pretty clean and organized. It doesn't always look pretty since I may have piles, but the piles are of the same category of "stuff", so the clutter that does show is organized. I'm just not anal about it looking clean down to some precise measurement. I used to be super chaotic with my things, but after working with a time management coach while in college, I learned how much of an effect a clean environment can have on my mind. I have a persistently cluttered mind, so being in a cluttered space I find, only exacerbates any stress or anxiety present already.

Yes! Exactly! ENFP hugs 😊