Game of Thrones!

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Yeah, we saw the breakdown of that dream during his trial for the murder he didn't commit (after risking his life and saving the city back in Season 2), resulting in his outrageous speech leading up to his demand for "trial by combat" since he realized he'd get no fair trial otherwise. He really is drinking a helluvalot, and while it seems a year later in our world, for him it really hasn't been that long in story weeks/months since he told off the crowd, had the combat trial, then escaped the dungeon killing his father, and hopped on a boat. No wonder he's just wanting to drink all the time.

That trial speech was pretty good. The bile in that was intense, and yet, it was very understandable. I see him as having been pushed to the breaking point after trying his best to participate in a rigged system that didn't really want him participating anyway. I'm not necessarily going to say that I condone his actions after he was released, but it's not too hard for me to imagine where he's coming from.

 

[Totenkindly]

Well, he did report on the whereabouts of Danerys to Robert in season 1 and created the assassination attempt. Although I wonder if that was purposely designed to fail.

I suspect it was, considering what I know of him now. And what better way to instigate the Targaryans to WANT to come back (versus just staying gone and seeking fortune elsewhere) than by manufacturing a "fake" assassination attempt? It suggests that someone sees you as a threat, which means you realize you still have power/leverage; and of course it also creates animosity, especially from someone like Drogo.

(As a minor note, Tyrion believes Varys was protecting Dani, and Tyrion acts as kind of a mouthpiece for GRRM; his logic is usually sound.)

I think he may have backed Viserys (although he might not have known that Viserys was insane), and I think he only latched onto Danerys later on. The conversation Arya overheard in season 1 seemed to not mention Danerys at all. Varys definitely has a morally gray side to him. But Littlefinger is morally black. (This setting is Black and Grey Morality.)

Agreed.

And I did rewatch much of Season 1 this past week. That council where Ned quits after everyone else insists on assassinating Daenerys (because she is pregnant with Drogo's child) -- Ned's "morally white" and he just refuses to agree. Varys makes a case for killing her, but I see that as prudent for him in his position; he can claim to have hired someone to kill her, and then just foil the attempt. It serves a double purpose.

I also have to wonder if Varys and his pal Illyrio knew what would happen with the dragon eggs. Did they know they would hatch? Did they have any reason to believe that they were anything more than a rare and costly souvenir? Or is the re-emergence of dragons into the world something entirely unaccounted for in their plans?

No idea, but that's what makes this so much fun.

Dani had an idea. She was placing the eggs in the fire to see what would happen, before her brother even died. In fact, now rewatching it knowing what I know, there were numerous signals during the season to point out that Viserys was not the dragon and Dani was (even starting with that first scene where she walks naked into the hot bath -- "no, my lady, it's too hot!")... I thought it was just her despondency over being married off to Drogo, so a psychological thing, but no, the heat didn't bother her. Later she doesn't burn her hands on the hot egg, although her handmaiden does. Etc.

That trial speech was pretty good. The bile in that was intense, and yet, it was very understandable. I see him as having been pushed to the breaking point after trying his best to participate in a rigged system that didn't really want him participating anyway. I'm not necessarily going to say that I condone his actions after he was released, but it's not too hard for me to imagine where he's coming from.

What, killing his dad and Shae?

I'm not even sure if he planned to kill his dad when he first went up. I think it was on his mind, but I think he could have been persuaded to go in different directions depending on outcome. Of course, then he shows up and sees Shae, and that's the end of that....

But of course, after he goes up, based on how badly they immediately went, at that point the outcome was predetermined. Even if he was acting out of rage and betrayal. He kind of had to kill them to avoid being killed.

 

[Totenkindly]

I'd love to hear discussions about her direction. She was called out for fooling her own heart, when she lied about hating The Hound (and got a lashing for it).

I thought that was great. I told people she might not hate him!

She's so strong-willed, I see her as someone who can live in denial to any internal feelings that might not align with her goals.

She's being trained to be an assassin. Given. While, Meryn Trant is coming to Braavos, along with Mace Tyrell. It's a given they will meet. One of her top hitlist marks. The meeting will be epic. Given.

Yeah, I've been waiting for Mace and Meryn to show up and when they might run into each other...

How will she ultimately converge with the other plot points? I'm inclined to believe that she will be the driving force for the Stark revenge (her not being able to fully give up her Stark identity/needle).

I honestly am not sure. I'm sure she'll never be a true assassin for them in the sense her heart will always be Stark, as you've said -- she can't give that up, it's her reason to live.

But will revenge be a mistake? Her heart has become severe. Will she accomplish something desirable with that, or just ruin something that was already getting fixed? I honestly have no idea where that's going.

It's too bad, I don't expect Ramsay to survive long enough for the two to meet. By the time Arya gets back, many people on her list might be gone. Still, Cersei and Walder Frey might be fair game. Gregor Clegane is on there, but.... Arya, I don't care who has been training you, I just don't know if you can pull that one off... considering.

You know, just because he's not currently on the list... once she's found out everything he's done and how he started the ball rolling: Littlefinger. That could be rather sweet... killed by Catelyn's daughter. And Arya is the dark-haired Stark.

 

[Udog]

How will she ultimately converge with the other plot points? I'm inclined to believe that she will be the driving force for the Stark revenge (her not being able to fully give up her Stark identity/needle).

Vengeance is a huge motivating factor for Arya, so I'm inclined to agree.

Most likely, her plot will intertwine with people on her list, so here it is as of the beginning of this season:

Cersei
Walder Frey
The Mountain
Meryn Trant

Meryn Trant's future isn't looking all that bright if Arya happens to run into him. I hope he took out an insurance policy before he left (just not with Arya's insurer)!

Cersei and the Mountain are together in King's Landing, which does make them a tempting target. However, there are a lot of variables at play here that make me think they aren't the top target. First, I imagine she's going to eventually get word that The Mountain is dead. Second, Cersei's life isn't all that great right now, and she does love to let people suffer. On the plus side, Arya knows all about the secret tunnels running through the Red Keep at King's Landing... which may prove useful for assassiny things.

Next, we have Walder Frey. I like this option. There isn't anyone around to extract vengeance on him, so his plot point has sort of been dangling for a while now. Plus, she was actually there, which has to add to the trauma of the whole thing and will enable her continuing moral downward spiral. There's a very potentially compelling story to be told, and I'm not entirely sure she's going to be the "good guy" by the end of it.

Ultimately though, she's probably going to be opportunistic. Who's next on her list will probably depend on whatever mission she's sent on next.

I suspect it was, considering what I know of him now. And what better way to instigate the Targaryans to WANT to come back (versus just staying gone and seeking fortune elsewhere) than by manufacturing a "fake" assassination attempt? It suggests that someone sees you as a threat, which means you realize you still have power/leverage; and of course it also creates animosity, especially from someone like Drogo.

And I did rewatch much of Season 1 this past week. That council where Ned quits after everyone else insists on assassinating Daenerys (because she is pregnant with Drogo's child) -- Ned's "morally white" and he just refuses to agree. Varys makes a case for killing her, but I see that as prudent for him in his position; he can claim to have hired someone to kill her, and then just foil the attempt. It serves a double purpose.


No idea, but that's what makes this so much fun.

I really do believe that the assassination attempt was genuine. They probably backed Viserys originally, and with Dany and Khal Drogo's unborn child murdered on order of Robert Baratheon, Drogo would have been very motivated to finally cross the narrow sea and seek vengeance. But that didn't work out, and over time Dany started to show that she was capable of both power and mercy, so Varys and his friend Illyrio started to back her.

This is different than in the books, but based off the information the TV show has given us, it's my guess.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I suspect it was, considering what I know of him now. And what better way to instigate the Targaryans to WANT to come back (versus just staying gone and seeking fortune elsewhere) than by manufacturing a "fake" assassination attempt?

That's along the lines I was thinking. Remember how Drogo reacted after the assassination attempt? If wound infections hadn't got him, he would have messed things up. If someone wanted to compel Drogo invade the seven kingdoms, that was certainly the right move. Perhaps Varys also knew enough about Jorah's history to know what he would do once he found out about the assassination attempt. It's possible that he had a good idea that Jorah would choose saving Danerys over going home.

I'm not even sure if he planned to kill his dad when he first went up. I think it was on his mind, but I think he could have been persuaded to go in different directions depending on outcome. Of course, then he shows up and sees Shae, and that's the end of that....

But of course, after he goes up, based on how badly they immediately went, at that point the outcome was predetermined. Even if he was acting out of rage and betrayal. He kind of had to kill them to avoid being killed.

Good point. They made that less morally ambiguous than it was in the book.

I really, really like that last scene, where the Night's King taunts Jon, and Jon has the look on his face where he realizes how incredibly fucked they are. It was a good way to give a personality to a mute character with uncertain motives. I expect, though, that the goal of the White Walkers is essentially the end of all living sentient beings that are not White Walkers, probably as a form of revenge. I was tempted to say that they wanted to eliminate all human life, but then I remembered that the giants and the Children of the Forest are opposed to them, too. I expect that they used to rule Westeros, or at least have strong influence over a much larger swath of it, before the humans came.

 

[Totenkindly]

Well, GRRM typically has multiple perspectives, right? So it makes you wonder what the Walkers want, who they are, why they even exist, why they bother to create new walkers (from Crasterbrats), and so forth... Sure, we can just have 'evil for the sake of evil'... but typically it's just a matter of perspective for lots of stuff here, many of the characters are mottled.

I don't know if the undead can handle water, but if they could, then it REALLY comes off as a taunt big-time. Because the horde could have swam after Jon and killed him right there... but it serves the King's purpose to just show them how screwed they are and then let him go to spread the word so everyone can cower in terror before the end. Geez. I just love that whole scene -- and how there isn't even music; it doesn't need it, the events are powerful all on their own.

I wonder if we should have a small group poll here of what episodes people would include in their top five or something.... This might (arguably) have been my favorite episode overall so far, but I'd have to go back and really look at them all again. I think I can say it's in my top three.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I don't know if the undead can handle water, but if they could, then it REALLY comes off as a taunt big-time. Because the horde could have swam after Jon and killed him right there... but it serves the King's purpose to just show them how screwed they are and then let him go to spread the word so everyone can cower in terror before the end. Geez. I just love that whole scene -- and how there isn't even music; it doesn't need it, the events are powerful all on their own.

I like that idea, that he could have gone after them, he just chose not to, because it would have made no difference.

If you're interested, here's the back story we have for the Night's King from the book. I'm not sure if the show is sticking to it or not, and even in the books, it's just old tales, so it might not be the complete picture. Certainly, there are curious incongruencies with other elements of the back story that cause me to doubt whether or not this is the whole story.

Who the Heck Is GOT’s Night’s King? -- Vulture

For hints, we have to go back to last year, when HBO Go accidentally revealed this character's name: "The Night's King." For book fans, it was a major reveal. In the Game of Thrones novels, the Night's King has a long history; he exists at the earliest fringes of Westerosi history, like a fantastical Gilgamesh. According to legend, the Night's King was the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch — for a sense of the time scale, Jon Snow is the 998th — who found a mysterious woman beyond the Wall. She had "skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars," and the Lord Commander was instantly smitten. Was she a White Walker? A wight? Something else entirely? Whatever her true nature, loving her cost the Lord Commander his soul. He brought her back to the Wall, crowned himself the Night's King, and the pair ruled for 13 years at the Nightfort (the abandoned castle where Bran crossed paths with Sam in season three), performing dreadful sacrifices and other dark magic. Eventually, the Wildlings and the Starks teamed up to end his reign of terror, and afterwards removed all traces of him from the historical record. Even now, Northerners debate the Night's King's real name; some say he was a Bolton (typical), some say he was an Umber, but in the spooky stories told at Winterfell before its fall, the tellers swear he was a Stark. This idea, predictably, freaks out the Stark kids.

 

[Udog]

GRRM has talked about how much he dislikes the "ultimate evil" trope in fantasy, so it's really hard to believe that the White Walkers are simply pure evil. It doesn't mean they don't want to conquer all of Westeros and kill humans, though. The First Men basically did that when they came over from Essos and attempted to eradicate the Children of the Forest, and Martin may be making a parallel with that.

 

[Qlip]

If Miyazaki starts writing for the show, they'll all be friends in the end and the world will be a better place.

 

[Udog]

If Miyazaki starts writing for the show, they'll all be friends in the end and the world will be a better place.

Howland's Moving Castle, amirite?

 

[Qre:us]

Vengeance is a huge motivating factor for Arya, so I'm inclined to agree.

Most likely, her plot will intertwine with people on her list, so here it is as of the beginning of this season:

Cersei
Walder Frey
The Mountain
Meryn Trant

Meryn Trant's future isn't looking all that bright if Arya happens to run into him. I hope he took out an insurance policy before he left (just not with Arya's insurer)!

[...]
Next, we have Walder Frey. I like this option. There isn't anyone around to extract vengeance on him, so his plot point has sort of been dangling for a while now.

Thanks for the recap of Arya's hitlist. Walder Frey, ohhh, he definitely needs his comeuppance! Although she does not know it yet, for that same reason, so does Roose Bolton, the traitor to the North, which will nicely segue with Sansa's plotline.

Plus, she was actually there, which has to add to the trauma of the whole thing and will enable her continuing moral downward spiral. There's a very potentially compelling story to be told, and I'm not entirely sure she's going to be the "good guy" by the end of it.

Yes, I can't see Arya remaining 'whole' by the end of her journey. I'm sure each kill will take a part of her Starkness away from her (Ned's 'moral white' leaning). But, she's never been Ned in that way, she was definitely more opportunistic. I think the return to her identity will converge with her reunion with Nymeria, her direwolf. There's parallels between all the Stark children and the fate of their direwolves.

When Robb's direwolf was killed, that was the first clench in the pit of my stomach, that Robb was going to die at the Red Wedding. When Lady was killed, to appease the Lannister's' brat, I knew that Sansa's fate was going to be one of unfairness for a long time to come. When Nymeria escaped into the wild unknown, it set the stage for Arya to become a wandering no one, until....

I think the reunion will happen when Arya is basically at the end of journey, into becoming no one and disappearing into that identity, to the point that she may even shield herself/reject the Starks if she comes across them. I have a weird thought that Sansa will collide with Arya, the no one she has become. And it will not be a happy reunion between sisters (echoing Catelyn's relationship with her cray cray sister, Lysa). Arya might even be sent on a mission to kill one of her own/or someone closely aligned with her own or say, Gendry, as an assassin. Directly putting her old self/loyalty in conflict with who she has become (assassin). But that a semblance of Arya's old days, Nymeria, will remind her of who she used to be.

I really, really like that last scene, where the Night's King taunts Jon, and Jon has the look on his face where he realizes how incredibly fucked they are. It was a good way to give a personality to a mute character with uncertain motives. I expect, though, that the goal of the White Walkers is essentially the end of all living sentient beings that are not White Walkers, probably as a form of revenge. I was tempted to say that they wanted to eliminate all human life, but then I remembered that the giants and the Children of the Forest are opposed to them, too. I expect that they used to rule Westeros, or at least have strong influence over a much larger swath of it, before the humans came.

Oh, he has a name. Night's King. Good to know.

I like that idea, that he could have gone after them, he just chose not to, because it would have made no difference.

If you're interested, here's the back story we have for the Night's King from the book. I'm not sure if the show is sticking to it or not, and even in the books, it's just old tales, so it might not be the complete picture. Certainly, there are curious incongruencies with other elements of the back story that cause me to doubt whether or not this is the whole story.

Who the Heck Is GOT’s Night’s King? -- Vulture

Ah! The backstory helps a lot. Oh, lucky # 13 of the Night's Watch Lord Commander, falling in love with Elsa from Frozen. I mean, who wouldn't?

So, would diplomacy work with the WhiteWalkers? Rather than a war to the death? Just pondering....

GRRM has talked about how much he dislikes the "ultimate evil" trope in fantasy, so it's really hard to believe that the White Walkers are simply pure evil. It doesn't mean they don't want to conquer all of Westeros and kill humans, though. The First Men basically did that when they came over from Essos and attempted to eradicate the Children of the Forest, and Martin may be making a parallel with that.

If the Whitewalkers can procreate on their own, fine. But, if they need live humans to become Whitewalkers, it's kind of counter-(re)productive to want to annihilate the whole of the human race.

Who are the First Men? Like the first humans? Out of Africa theory, GRRM?

I'd like to know more about the Children (of the Forest), as well, without giving away any major spoilers, if possible!

 

[Totenkindly]

I've been rewatching season 1, and it's more interesting to me now that I actually know the characters and overall sense of where things are going. Here's some tidbits:

1. The white walkers have been "sleeping " for thousands of years, and now they are waking up. What woke them up? WHy do they sleep vs wake up? I dunno.

2. When Arya flees the guards, leaving the First Sword behind, there's a cut right after of her running away... and she hears a metal sword clatter behind her (the way she came -- it's stereophonic so you can hear the direction of it) and turns to look... but the First Sword was wielding a wooden (broken) blade. So if he had died and dropped his weapon, it wouldn't have made that noise. Did he win?

3. "Murdering" Robert consisted of Lancel getting him immensely drunk. I was wondering if he had been given anything else, but it's not suggested. It just seems like a risky murder scheme, there's too much variability in outcome. Oh well.

4. I still think the spy they captured briefly (the Lannister spy) looks like Tom Cruise. What is this, MI3.5? Besides, he's too pretty to be a spy.

5. Definitely trying to kill Dani triggered Drogo to attack Westeros. Maybe that was Varys' thought all along... except she was the last Targaryan. Did he know Viserys was dead by that point?

6. Littlefinger actually (in a speech that is too "on the nose") tells his whole backstory about Caitlyn (without naming her) and then says exactly what he wants: "Everything." He can't fight and win their game, so he will fuck them instead. He does also give Ned a chance to buy in, but Ned refuses.

7. Some things never change 1: Tyrion saves his life by talking his way out of yet another scrape with the Stonecrows.

8. Some things never change 2: Dani actually creates her own problems through idealism. She prevents the victors in her tribe from raping the women as was their right, so the leader challenges Drogo and before dying wounds him, resulting in sepsis and his death. Meanwhile, the main woman she saves is the witch; she treats Drogo (and potentially poisons him?), and is of course the one contributing to the curse resulting in a vegetable Drogo and the death of unborn Rhaego. IOW, it destroys Dani's whole life at the time. her idealism led her to interfere with a local custom, to her own detriment. She makes this same mistake repeatedly, doing things that mean well to "express her humanity" that end up biting her in the butt.

9. The Lord Commander tells Sam that he is a coward, but he's definitely not stupid. This is a nice contrast to Sam in the most recent episode, where he still can't fight but he's not at all a coward.

10. Slynt gets his "reward" for turning on Ned, but I guess things go badly for him under Tyrion, and he meets his eventual end under Jon Snow (!) this season. What, did something go right for the Starks finally? A measure of justice?

11. The infamous "downsizing" of Barristan Selmy. Cersei at least couched her words politely, but Joffrey insulted Selmy's honor and competence; uggh.

12. You see Varys TRYING to shift what he can shift. Kind of like when he drops a comment meant to support Sansa's plea to spare her father; he's pretty smooth and subtle in his advice. (Pycelle is just an idiot. Watching Season 1 reminds me why I've hated him.)

When Robb's direwolf was killed, that was the first clench in the pit of my stomach, that Robb was going to die at the Red Wedding. When Lady was killed, to appease the Lannister's' brat, I knew that Sansa's fate was going to be one of unfairness for a long time to come. When Nymeria escaped into the wild unknown, it set the stage for Arya to become a wandering no one, until....

That's pretty insightful and sounds on the mark.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I've been rewatching season 1, and it's more interesting to me now that I actually know the characters and overall sense of where things are going. Here's some tidbits:

1. The white walkers have been "sleeping " for thousands of years, and now they are waking up. What woke them up? WHy do they sleep vs wake up? I dunno.

Beats me. I hope we find out via Bran. I like that in the books we get all these legends about ancient history but we don't know if any of it's true or not. The stories kind of remind me of the anachronisms present in the stories of King Arthur and everything; Sam points out that the stories describe there being "knights before there were knights." The stories of King Arthur mention an emperor of Rome after Rome had fallen and feature high medieval concepts of chivalry before that even existed, IIRC. It was an interesting historical parallel. I often wonder that about old tales, what the truth of them is, and what's been distorted.

I really like that scene in the pilot where they find the direwolves. It kind of tells you everything you need to know about Theon, Jon and Ned. Theon seems very eager to kill those puppies; he looks delighted at the prospect.

Also, I like the exchange:

"You're not a Stark."
"Neither are you."

Ghost is the runt of the litter and is kind of a freak, being an albino. Ghost is also found apart from the others. Theon doesn't get a direwolf.

You see Varys TRYING to shift what he can shift. Kind of like when he drops a comment meant to support Sansa's plea to spare her father; he's pretty smooth and subtle in his advice. (Pycelle is just an idiot. Watching Season 1 reminds me why I've hated him.)

I remember at the time, I was very surprised. He seemed like a kindly, helpful old man at first, and then by the end of the season he's talking about how treason is a vile weed, and it must be stomped out.

 

[Qre:us]

And he is named Ghost, the invisible one of the "Starks".

I do think it was pivotal and very deliberate, the introduction of the Stark children, as THE introduction to the children on screen, when getting the direwolf pups, one for each.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Ah! The backstory helps a lot. Oh, lucky # 13 of the Night's Watch Lord Commander, falling in love with Elsa from Frozen. I mean, who wouldn't?

Supposedly. I wonder what was up with this woman, since there's no mention of female White Walkers at any other point. Maybe she turned him into a White Walker?

So, would diplomacy work with the WhiteWalkers? Rather than a war to the death? Just pondering....

It's possible, but we don't really know that much about them. The show has shown us more of them than the books.

If the Whitewalkers can procreate on their own, fine. But, if they need live humans to become Whitewalkers, it's kind of counter-(re)productive to want to annihilate the whole of the human race.

Maybe they don't even care.

Who are the First Men? Like the first humans?

The First Men are the First Men in Westeros, not necessarily in the world. They moved their from the eastern continent via a land bridge that once connected to Dorne, so the story goes. If we read Westeros as an analogy for for England, the First Men are roughly analogus to the Celts.

There are a few noble houses descended from them, but most of the houses are in the North. Both the Boltons and the Starks are descended from the First Men. If we read the history Westeros as an analogy for the history of Great Britain, the First Men are equivalent to the Celts. The Andals, from whom a lot of the Southern houses are descended from, are equivalent to the Anglo-Saxons, and the Targaryens are the Normans.

 

[Udog]

Yes, I can't see Arya remaining 'whole' by the end of her journey. I'm sure each kill will take a part of her Starkness away from her (Ned's 'moral white' leaning). But, she's never been Ned in that way, she was definitely more opportunistic. I think the return to her identity will converge with her reunion with Nymeria, her direwolf. There's parallels between all the Stark children and the fate of their direwolves.

When Robb's direwolf was killed, that was the first clench in the pit of my stomach, that Robb was going to die at the Red Wedding. When Lady was killed, to appease the Lannister's' brat, I knew that Sansa's fate was going to be one of unfairness for a long time to come. When Nymeria escaped into the wild unknown, it set the stage for Arya to become a wandering no one, until....

I think the reunion will happen when Arya is basically at the end of journey, into becoming no one and disappearing into that identity, to the point that she may even shield herself/reject the Starks if she comes across them. I have a weird thought that Sansa will collide with Arya, the no one she has become. And it will not be a happy reunion between sisters (echoing Catelyn's relationship with her cray cray sister, Lysa). Arya might even be sent on a mission to kill one of her own/or someone closely aligned with her own or say, Gendry, as an assassin. Directly putting her old self/loyalty in conflict with who she has become (assassin). But that a semblance of Arya's old days, Nymeria, will remind her of who she used to be.

Do you think that Needle may represent her relationship with who she was, and the Starks, or her relationship with Jon Snow? Instead of Nymeria being the one that brings her back, assuming she comes back, it might actually be a reunion with Jon.

Although man, it would really suck if the Faceless Men send her on a mission to kill a Stark, or another sympathetic character. I can totally see that as the type of moral dilemma that GRRM would manufacture.

If the Whitewalkers can procreate on their own, fine. But, if they need live humans to become Whitewalkers, it's kind of counter-(re)productive to want to annihilate the whole of the human race.

Oh, that's a good point. That might suggest that the White Walker's end game for humans might be much darker than just murder...

Who are the First Men? Like the first humans? Out of Africa theory, GRRM?

I'd like to know more about the Children (of the Forest), as well, without giving away any major spoilers, if possible!

This was on the DVD set of Season 1, so no unnecessary spoilers. This is a very great introduction - we can dig deeper if you are still curious after watching it.

Just to note, since the video doesn't make it 100% clear: the Starks and other northerners are descended from the First Men, whereas most of Westeros is actually descended from the Andals. This is why the Starks worship the Old Gods and pray to the trees, and everyone else worships the religion of the Andals: The Seven.

Also, the land bridge that the First Men used to cross is at the south of Westeros. The tip of what looks like a boot used to connect, but after being destroyed by the Children all that remained are the Stepstones.

3. "Murdering" Robert consisted of Lancel getting him immensely drunk. I was wondering if he had been given anything else, but it's not suggested. It just seems like a risky murder scheme, there's too much variability in outcome. Oh well.

There was probably something a bit extra added to the alcohol to further decrease Robert's abilities.

5. Definitely trying to kill Dani triggered Drogo to attack Westeros. Maybe that was Varys' thought all along... except she was the last Targaryan. Did he know Viserys was dead by that point?

This is where TV show Varys and Book Varys probably have different motivations, so I'm only talking about TV show Varys. My guess is that after Viserys was dead Varys felt his plan was foiled, and didn't start rooting for Dany until he heard of her actions at Slaver's Bay.

 

[Qre:us]

Do you think that Needle may represent her relationship with who she was, and the Starks, or her relationship with Jon Snow? Instead of Nymeria being the one that brings her back, assuming she comes back, it might actually be a reunion with Jon.

haha, I don't think Nymeria will be bringing Arya back, but that Arya's return back to the Stark identity will converge with Nymeria's return (as a symbolism). Nymeria's return is a correlation, not a causation.

I do think, as you do, that Arya's reunion with Jon will reawaken her moral compass and curb her warpath of vengeance. She loves and respects him, and the Jon she will meet, will be someone who has built his moral character, to earn such respect even more. And I can see his disappointment in who she has become, not anger, not outrage, just sadness and disappointment, prompting her identity crisis.

I think Jon believed in Arya as Arya, her uniqueness, her defiance against the traditional female role, so Jon represents her belief in herself, Arya. Stark will still represent her identity, a loving family who didn't always understand her, but loved her still, completing the picture, Arya Stark.

Oh, that's a good point. That might suggest that the White Walker's end game for humans might be much darker than just murder...

Maybe. It just seems like the formidable enemy, the great Others, need more of a build-up than, 'meh, they just want to kill the human race, and take over the world for themselves, just because.....you know, they're Whitewalkers." If the appreciation of, and hunger for, power, is not explained to at least *some* depth from the Whitewalkers' angle, then it's (1) shallow, and, (2) circular logic.

Doesn't seem like GRRM's MO. That's why the story is fun for me. He weaves tales quite intricately, which is why I like piecing it together. His story is very Ti-driven. I.e., internal consistency is paramount, as is the expansiveness of the connections, tying into one whole. He's definitely Ti/Ne or Ne/Ti. Nothing is left dangling without it *fitting* into something else. [this is an aside, and totally up for debate!]

And, for the Whitewalkers, their motivation must drive their purpose. We kind of see/understand their purpose, but no clue on their motivation. And I can't see it leading to a stale, dead end, of 'just because...' These guys must have a self-driven motive. Now to find out what. They are sentient enough to lead an army, unlike the wights. Otherwise, fearing the Whitewalkers is unsubstantiated. They'd be no different than the mindless wights. There must be something about them to fear, some deeper, darker purpose of theirs.

Maybe. hopefully.

Maybe the Whitewalker leader, Night's King (name?), that Jon faces off in the last episode is the 13th Night's Watch Lord Commander, turned Whitewalker. Stark-vs-Stark/Lord Commander-vs-Lord Commander face-off. I mean, we don't know if they die like humans do, or can live for a while, like centuries and thousands of years.


EDIT: omg! I just had a thought! Whitewalkers can turn dead humans and animals (horses) into wights! Can you imagine if they turned a killed dragon into one (one of Dany's 3?)? Ice dragon vs Fire Dragon!! Mind. Blown.

Would make for some epic visual animation!!!

Can they turn magical things/people into wights? Oh, the technicalities of Whitewalker's MO.

This was on the DVD set of Season 1, so no unnecessary spoilers. This is a very great introduction - we can dig deeper if you are still curious after watching it.

Just to note, since the video doesn't make it 100% clear: the Starks and other northerners are descended from the First Men, whereas most of Westeros is actually descended from the Andals. This is why the Starks worship the Old Gods and pray to the trees, and everyone else worships the religion of the Andals: The Seven.

Also, the land bridge that the First Men used to cross is at the south of Westeros. The tip of what looks like a boot used to connect, but after being destroyed by the Children all that remained are the Stepstones.

OMG, goldmine!!!! Thanks, U Doggie Dawg! How ridiculous that I didn't even know these clips existed? When that clip finished, I see screencaps of other clips that gives backgrounds on other GoT myths and legends!

Thank you for giving me one more avenue to waste my time with. Mucho appreciated!


[MENTION=7]Jennifer[/MENTION]:

4. I still think the spy they captured briefly (the Lannister spy) looks like Tom Cruise. What is this, MI3.5? Besides, he's too pretty to be a spy.

Now I want to find what this guy looks like. Google turned up nothing! I cant' remember this guy/part.

1. The white walkers have been "sleeping " for thousands of years, and now they are waking up. What woke them up? WHy do they sleep vs wake up? I dunno.

Seriously!! People want to know!

 

[Udog]

I think Jon believed in Arya as Arya, her uniqueness, her defiance against the traditional female role, so Jon represents her belief in herself, Arya. Stark will still represent her identity, a loving family who didn't always understand her, but loved her still, completing the picture, Arya Stark.

This is what I'm hoping for as well, although it may be a bit too clean for Game of Thrones. I think you nailed the nature of their relationship, though. Jon was the only one that ever encouraged her "wolf's blood"... I mean, he gave an 11 year old girl a sword, so that has to count for something, right?!

Maybe. It just seems like the formidable enemy, the great Others, need more of a build-up than, 'meh, they just want to kill the human race, and take over the world for themselves, just because.....you know, they're Whitewalkers." If the appreciation of, and hunger for, power, is not explained to at least *some* depth from the Whitewalkers' angle, then it's (1) shallow, and, (2) circular logic.

Doesn't seem like GRRM's MO. That's why the story is fun for me. He weaves tales quite intricately, which is why I like piecing it together. His story is very Ti-driven. I.e., internal consistency is paramount, as is the expansiveness of the connections, tying into one whole. He's definitely Ti/Ne or Ne/Ti. Nothing is left dangling without it *fitting* into something else. [this is an aside, and totally up for debate!]

Oh, for sure. I've had him pegged as ENTP for quite some time.

And, for the Whitewalkers, their motivation must drive their purpose. We kind of see/understand their purpose, but no clue on their motivation. And I can't see it leading to a stale, dead end, of 'just because...' These guys must have a self-driven motive. Now to find out what. They are sentient enough to lead an army, unlike the wights. Otherwise, fearing the Whitewalkers is unsubstantiated. They'd be no different than the mindless wights. There must be something about them to fear, some deeper, darker purpose of theirs.

Maybe. hopefully.

Maybe the Whitewalker leader, Night's King (name?), that Jon faces off in the last episode is the 13th Night's Watch Lord Commander, turned Whitewalker. Stark-vs-Stark/Lord Commander-vs-Lord Commander face-off. I mean, we don't know if they die like humans do, or can live for a while, like centuries and thousands of years.

The show is calling him the Night's King in all the behind the scenes stuff. It's still not clear if it's the SAME Night's King from the Night's Watch, but there's a good chance it is. If they are the same, I wonder if the Night's King is like the Ramsey Snow of the Walkers? It's certainly possible he's lived for that long, too. I get the impression that they are like malevolent Ice Elves.

As for their motivations... I have faith in George. There are a couple of chapters in the books that the TV show hasn't covered yet (probably Season 6) that would suggest that there is more to the White Walkers than them being simply evil. I mean, we still have no clue about how they actually work, but there are hints that as we learn more about them, it won't be so easy to dismiss them as just ice demons.

I can't say any more than that, but I can say this: Look at the Fire side. R'hllor, the god of fire, is being painted as the enemy of the White Walkers and the "good" side, but still believes in things like burning people, giving birth to shadow assassins, and killing children because they have king's blood.

EDIT: omg! I just had a thought! Whitewalkers can turn dead humans and animals (horses) into wights! Can you imagine if they turned a killed dragon into one (one of Dany's 3?)? Ice dragon vs Fire Dragon!! Mind. Blown.

Would make for some epic visual animation!!!

Can they turn magical things/people into wights? Oh, the technicalities of Whitewalker's MO.

I'm pretty sure they have giants and mammoths in their army of the undead. I'm not sure if they'd be able to convert a dragon, though. Good question!

Oh, and let's not forget the giant ice spiders. It's only legend, but man, how many nightmares will that cause if the show includes them?

OMG, goldmine!!!! Thanks, U Doggie Dawg! How ridiculous that I didn't even know these clips existed? When that clip finished, I see screencaps of other clips that gives backgrounds on other GoT myths and legends!

Thank you for giving me one more avenue to waste my time with. Mucho appreciated!

Awesome! The videos do a pretty good job... and occasionally they'll even hint on mysteries the books haven't answered yet. I enjoy em.

 

[Qre:us]

As for their motivations... I have faith in George. There are a couple of chapters in the books that the TV show hasn't covered yet (probably Season 6) that would suggest that there is more to the White Walkers than them being simply evil. I mean, we still have no clue about how they actually work, but there are hints that as we learn more about them, it won't be so easy to dismiss them as just ice demons.

I can't say any more than that, but I can say this: Look at the Fire side. R'hllor, the god of fire, is being painted as the enemy of the White Walkers and the "good" side, but still believes in things like burning people, giving birth to shadow assassins, and killing children because they have king's blood.

Yes, I can see the great upcoming war ultimately being between the Fire God (R'hllor - will not remember this name), and the Others (Whitewalkers), acting as opposite ends of the extremes. Dualistic, in nature. Like Ying/Yang. Where neither is classically evil, nor classically good, but that balancing both extreme is what is needed (which is where the humans and their allies, like the Children, will need to come in, to restore that balance). As it seems that the Fire God has already infiltrated humanity, from within. Melisandra, the guy in the cave who can bring people back from the dead, random zealous worshippers (Tyrion is also taken in and aback by the encounter of the woman/prostitute proselytizing about the Fire God in that market). It seems likely that, when such a time is nearing, so too, will the Others awaken, or some such fantastical BS.

 

[Qlip]

I'm amusedly envisioning a scenario with the Lannisters in Westros wiping themselves out, leaving a situation where the strongest undisputed claim to the throne is a marriage between Dany and Tyrion post the birth of a set of fine full length, fire proof, love child twins between them leading a large army of swarthy peoples.

I wonder if the Targaryen line wasn't the result of an attempt to wrestle power from asshole Fire/Sun/Snowshovel gods and allow humans to fight the Winter on their own terms.