[MBTI General] ESFJ's help an INTJ out, please. (INTJ female needs help with ESFJ male)

[pure_mercury]

wow, you guys are all making out this ESFJ to be the bad guy here, even though he is the one that got cheated on. Well, he is an ESFJ so he probably doesn't think about anything but sex, not the fact that he got cheated on, rolls eyes.

I don't think he's the bad guy at all. He may have made some poor choices in friends, but he did nothing wrong in this particular situation. I sympathize with him and with Harlow_Jem.

 

[alicia91]

Don't think this was rape at all. Doesn't sound like "forced sex" to me. When drunk, your judgement sometimes goes out the window and you end up making stupid decisions at the time. What if the guy she did it with was drunk too - did he get sexually assaulted also? If this is the case, I guess I've been raped a few times.

Anyhow, as much as you desire to fix this - it's unfixable. Lesson learned - don't drink so much and don't combine it with Xanax. Sorry.

 

[Economica]

Don't think this was rape at all. Doesn't sound like "forced sex" to me. When drunk, your judgement sometimes goes out the window and you end up making stupid decisions at the time.

You don't think this sounds at least like a possible rape?

I know it's my fault that I got completely trashed but I laid down on the bed and his best friend literally grabbed me like a ragdoll and after that, I don't remember shit.

There may be more to the story, but I don't think we've yet heard enough to dismiss that it was non-consensual.

 

[Harlow_Jem]

It was non-consensual but I was apathetic to what was happening since I was too trashed to make any sort of judgment. I am not in any way disturbed or bothered by what happened with his best friend except for the fact that it fucked things up between me and ESFJ.

I'm 20, btw. I sent him a message on facebook explaining all this and he has not yet written back yet. I'm pretty sure he chooses to believe his best friend's point of view of the situation and probably does not ever want to reconcile things with me since it started out as just a summer fling and never really got "serious." Nonetheless, I realized that I had strong feelings for him and that although he is an ESFJ and I am an INTJ, it could have worked out if I had not gone and fucked his best friend. Oops.

 

[Randomnity]

Don't think this was rape at all. Doesn't sound like "forced sex" to me. When drunk, your judgement sometimes goes out the window and you end up making stupid decisions at the time. What if the guy she did it with was drunk too - did he get sexually assaulted also? If this is the case, I guess I've been raped a few times.

Anyhow, as much as you desire to fix this - it's unfixable. Lesson learned - don't drink so much and don't combine it with Xanax. Sorry.

+1

My god, do we need to make guys sign consent forms before sex now? I understand the desire to protect potential victims, but I think women are just as capable as men of making stupid decisions when drunk (and/or making stupid decisions about where and when to drink), and should be held equally responsible - in this case, we have no way to know that the guy wasn't equally "messed up". If we end up crying wolf too many times, we could end up with real rape victims who don't receive the care and attention they deserve.

/end rant

Re the OP, you fucked up, most guys wouldn't be able to look you in the eye after that, let alone date you. It isn't a type issue, it's your issue. He could be a complete pussy sweetheart and be able to forgive you, but that is a rare individual, rather than something to be expected.

 

[proteanmix]

I'm a little shocked by the dismissive responses.

If Harlow doesn't want to make a big deal out of what happened to her then that's on her. I'm not the casting agent for a Lifetime movie. Fact of the matter is she couldn't say no, was drunk and loopy on meds. She was in no form to consent to what happened and this has nothing to do with getting guys to sign waivers. If you all want to dance around the issue, fine but she was date raped. I guess this is a case of if a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it, did it make a sound.

 

[heart]

Have you tried to have a completely honest and open discussion of what happened, how sorry you are and that you think you love the ESFJ?

Was this "friend" trashed as well or was he sober?

 

[Randomnity]

This is such a tangent, and not asked for by the OP, but I felt that your response deserved a reply, pm.

Can two people rape each other simultaneously and without a struggle by either party? So do they both get jail time, then, or what? Why is it only ever the male who's accused of date rape when two drunk people have drunken sex?

I've never in my entire life been asked for permission to have sex with me, drunk or sober, and I'd laugh hysterically if I was. Do I need to start asking permission before sex too? It's only fair. Assuming no force/coercion etc is involved, women are just as capable as men are of making wise or foolish decisions, whether drunk/high or sober. Taking responsibility for your own actions = way cool (and it seems like you've gone this route, Harlow, for which I applaud you). Blaming others = lame. Especially when criminal charges are involved.

 

[01011010]

Oy, that's tough. You should have mentioned it wasn't consensual. I'd still let the guy go.

 

[Economica]

I've never in my entire life been asked for permission to have sex with me, drunk or sober, and I'd laugh hysterically if I was. Do I need to start asking permission before sex too? It's only fair.

So, Randomnity, since I find myself on the PC side this time shock, how many times do you think I've been involved in a formal exchange of permission?

It seems to me that you and alicia91 are assuming more than we've been told. (Oh, the delicious irony of an INTJ saying this to two ISTPs! ) Or do you really think that the following positively does not describe a rape?

I know it's my fault that I got completely trashed but I laid down on the bed and his best friend literally grabbed me like a ragdoll and after that, I don't remember shit.

I'm not saying she needs to press charges or otherwise ruin the guy's life. Maybe there is just a little more to the story that counts as mitigating circumstances. (Although if not, I'd be concerned as to whether the guy would take advantage of other girls in the future.) My purpose in bringing up the 'r' word was to shed light upon why the ESFJ isn't buying Harlow_Jem's story:

I have to say I don't wonder at the ESFJ reacting as if you willingly slept with his friend when your focus seems to be on winning the ESFJ back rather than on reacting to the rape. This discrepancy between your behavior and expected/normal behavior steals verisimilitude from your version of events.

I'm thinking that most women would either concede that the sex was somehow consensual (which H_J doesn't) or feel at least a little bit traumatized (which H_J doesn't). It's a rare woman who will react completely dispassionately to a non-consensual act of sex, like it was a car accident that was no one's fault, and so I don't blame the ESFJ for thinking she's lying about her part in inviting, or rather, in not inviting the event.

And if there were mitigating circumstances that we haven't heard about, maybe it's best if he thinks that way; I'm not sure the odds are good that an ESFJ man would react equally dispassionately to 'a car accident that was no one's fault'.

 

[proteanmix]

This is such a tangent, and not asked for by the OP, but I felt that your response deserved a reply, pm.

Can two people rape each other simultaneously and without a struggle by either party? So do they both get jail time, then, or what? Why is it only ever the male who's accused of date rape when two drunk people have drunken sex?

I've never in my entire life been asked for permission to have sex with me, drunk or sober, and I'd laugh hysterically if I was. Do I need to start asking permission before sex too? It's only fair. Assuming no force/coercion etc is involved, women are just as capable as men are of making wise or foolish decisions, whether drunk/high or sober. Taking responsibility for your own actions = way cool (and it seems like you've gone this route, Harlow, for which I applaud you). Blaming others = lame. Especially when criminal charges are involved.

OK, Harlow has not yet answered the question of if the guy that she had sex with was drunk himself. Two drunk people having sex is different from one person who is drunk and the other who is sober taking advantage of the other's drunken state.

But either way Harlow has stated emphatically that it WAS NOT CONSENSUAL. Rape is defined as forced, non-consensual sex. Here are definitions and scenarios:

Rape is forced, unwanted sexual intercourse. Rape, sometimes also called sexual assault, can happen to both men and women of any age.

Source

Here are five hypothetical situations that may help clarify just what is and what is not sexual assault :

1. Peter and Sue are at a party and Sue becomes very drunk. They go back to Sue's room. Sue passes out. Peter has sex with her. Is this rape?

Analysis: Because Sue is unconscious, she is unable to consent to having sex with Peter. When someone has sex with a person who is incapable of giving consent, it is rape. If your partner is so drunk that he or she does not comprehend what is happening, he or she cannot give consent.

2. Peter and Sue are at a party and Peter becomes very drunk. They go back to Sue's room. Peter makes sexual advances and Sue protests. Peter is drunk and feels that he cannot control his desires. He ignores her resistance and has sex with her. Is this rape?

Analysis: Rape does not depend on the perpetrator's state of mind. It depends on what is objectively reasonable in the situation. Peter's incapacity or insensitivity due to drinking is not an excuse for forcing another person to have sex. Drunk or not, it is rape.

3. Peter and Paul have been involved in a sexual relationship for several months. Paul decides to end the relationship and goes to Peter's room to tell him. When he tries to tell Peter, Peter embraces him. Paul protests and resists, but Peter forces him on the bed and has sex with him. Is this rape?

Analysis: Forced sex without a partne's consent is rape, regardless of any pre-existing sexual relationship.

4. Sarah and Sue are alone. Sarah kisses Sue and makes other sexual advances. Sue goes along with it by removing Sarah's shorts. Sue doesn't want to have sex with Sarah but she is not comfortable telling her. Sarah thinks Sue is willing to have sex because she does not protest or resist. They have sex, but the whole time Sue is thinking that she does not want to be having sex. Is this rape?

Analysis: In this situation it appears that Sue has consented to having sex. Although she has not verbally granted Sarah permission to proceed, her act of removing Sarah's shorts would likely be considered consent by a reasonable person. The alleged victim's state of mind is not relevant to the offence if she does not otherwise communicate her feelings or if she acts in a manner that can reasonably be interpreted as consent in light of the surrounding circumstances. As always, if threat or intimidation were present in the situation then Sarah would have reason to believe that Sue's cooperation was not voluntary. In the absence of such circumstances, if Sue is responsive to Sarah's advances and does not communicate her unwillingness, it is not rape.

5. Peter and Sue leave a party together. Peter walks Sue back to her room. While alone with Sue in her room, Peter kisses Sue and makes other sexual advances. Sue doesn't like Peter and doesn’t want to have sex with him. Peter thinks Sue is willing to have sex because she does not protest or resist. He has sex with her. Is it rape?

Analysis: While this situation may seem ambiguous, Sue did not make any statements or gestures that Peter could reasonably have interpreted as an affirmative expression of consent. In such cases, the perpetrator must take reasonable steps to ascertain that the victim was consenting. Lack of objection by someone is not evidence of consent, and consent is essential because sex without it is rape.

Source

The bolded part seems like Harlow's situation. Maybe we're working off different definitions of what rape is.

Harlow says she's OK with what happened. If she wasn't would you still be saying the same things? Just because she's not upset by what happened doesn't mean that what happened to her wasn't a violation.

It seems to me that you and Alicia think this is more like the fourth scenario than the first. Is this correct?

 

[Randomnity]

So, Randomnity, since I find myself on the PC side this time shock, how many times do you think I've been involved in a formal exchange of permission?

It seems to me that you and alicia91 are assuming more than we've been told. (Oh, the delicious irony of an INTJ saying this to two ISTPs! ) Or do you really think that the following positively does not describe a rape?



I'm not saying she needs to press charges or otherwise ruin the guy's life. Maybe there is just a little more to the story that counts as mitigating circumstances. (Although if not, I'd be concerned as to whether the guy would take advantage of other girls in the future.) My purpose in bringing up the 'r' word was to shed light upon why the ESFJ isn't buying Harlow_Jem's story:



I'm thinking that most women would either concede that the sex was somehow consensual (which H_J doesn't) or feel at least a little bit traumatized (which H_J doesn't). It's a rare woman who will react completely dispassionately to a non-consensual act of sex, like it was a car accident that was no one's fault, and so I don't blame the ESFJ for thinking she's lying about her part in inviting, or rather, in not inviting the event.

And if there were mitigating circumstances that we haven't heard about, maybe it's best if he thinks that way; I'm not sure the odds are good that an ESFJ man would react equally dispassionately to 'a car accident that was no one's fault'.

I didn't say it wasn't rape necessarily in this situation, I was protesting about throwing around such emotionally-loaded terms when we don't know all the facts. All we know is that she doesn't remember (and therefore she thinks it was non-consensual). Anything could have happened. I was mainly protesting the overuse of the word in general.

OK, Harlow has not yet answered the question of if the guy that she had sex with was drunk himself. Two drunk people having sex is different from one person who is drunk and the other who is sober taking advantage of the other's drunken state.

But either way Harlow has stated emphatically that it WAS NOT CONSENSUAL. Rape is defined as forced, non-consensual sex. Here are definitions and scenarios:
Source

Here are five hypothetical situations that may help clarify just what is and what is not sexual assault :

Source

The bolded part seems like Harlow's situation. Maybe we're working off different definitions of what rape is.

Harlow says she's OK with what happened. If she wasn't would you still be saying the same things? Just because she's not upset by what happened doesn't mean that what happened to her wasn't a violation.

It seems to me that you and Alicia think this is more like the fourth scenario than the first. Is this correct?

I definitely did not assume she passed out, since I didn't read anything along those lines...she just didn't remember. If she was actually unconscious that is a very different matter and in that case I completely agree with you....because it is obvious to any potential partner that consent is impossible.

Even "too drunk to consent" is a shaky thing to judge even from an internal POV, let alone an external one.

Yes, I would say the same thing regardless of her emotional reaction. If you can't remember anything about an event you can't say anything about the circumstances. She may have been consensual at the time until the memory was lost. She may not have been. We can't know, so I object to making accusations when we don't know the story.

 

[heart]

5. Peter and Sue leave a party together. Peter walks Sue back to her room. While alone with Sue in her room, Peter kisses Sue and makes other sexual advances. Sue doesn't like Peter and doesn’t want to have sex with him. Peter thinks Sue is willing to have sex because she does not protest or resist. He has sex with her. Is it rape?

Analysis: While this situation may seem ambiguous, Sue did not make any statements or gestures that Peter could reasonably have interpreted as an affirmative expression of consent. In such cases, the perpetrator must take reasonable steps to ascertain that the victim was consenting. Lack of objection by someone is not evidence of consent, and consent is essential because sex without it is rape.

Wow. If Sue is not able to say at the very least "no thanks" in situations like this, or to even just put her hand up over her mouth to prevent a kiss, she needs intensive help. She should not be going out alone at all. The only time I could see this being realistic for a person of normal intelligence is with a minor teen with an authority figure, but that's not the senario given. Still it is pretty creepy that a guy wouldn't ask or want some sort of compliance for his own reassurance or gratification.


EDIT: Thinking about this rape issue with the two drunk people. We don't let drunk drivers off when they harm others. So I suppose that has implications for people who get drunk and ingage in sexual acts with each other, but Random brings up a good point about the lack of memory being a problem here. Cannot know if consent was given or not.

 

[proteanmix]

Wow. If Sue is not able to say at the very least "no thanks" in situations like this, or to even just put her hand up over her mouth to prevent a kiss, she needs intensive help. She should not be going out alone at all. The only time I could see this being realistic for a person of normal intelligence is with a minor teen with an authority figure, but that's not the senario given. Still it is pretty creepy that a guy wouldn't ask or want some sort of compliance for his own reassurance or gratification.

Yeah, this scenario was questionable to me as well. I don't think Peter is guilty of anything. If Sue didn't muster up at least a yelp she needs to chill on the dating thing for a minute until she learns the power of no.

 

[heart]

Yeah, this scenario was questionable to me as well. I don't think Peter is guilty of anything. If Sue didn't muster up at least a yelp she needs to chill on the dating thing for a minute until she learns the power of no.

Like maybe live in a group home or something with an "older sister" to go around with her for a while.

 

[lastrailway]

5. Peter and Sue leave a party together. Peter walks Sue back to her room. While alone with Sue in her room, Peter kisses Sue and makes other sexual advances. Sue doesn't like Peter and doesn’t want to have sex with him. Peter thinks Sue is willing to have sex because she does not protest or resist. He has sex with her. Is it rape?

Analysis: While this situation may seem ambiguous, Sue did not make any statements or gestures that Peter could reasonably have interpreted as an affirmative expression of consent. In such cases, the perpetrator must take reasonable steps to ascertain that the victim was consenting. Lack of objection by someone is not evidence of consent, and consent is essential because sex without it is rape.

I understand the concept of consent in all the other examples, but in this one, I think I'm missing the point. Sue maybe doesn't want to have sex with Jim, but if she doesn't express at all her objection and doesn't resist at all, then why shouldn't he assume she does want to have sex with him? Actually if she doesn't resist or protest at all, the guy should have either read her mind or ask her "Hey, do you want to have sex with me?" to know she might have an objection.

 

[Randomnity]

Yeah, this scenario was questionable to me as well. I don't think Peter is guilty of anything. If Sue didn't muster up at least a yelp she needs to chill on the dating thing for a minute until she learns the power of no.

Completely agree. This is kinda what I meant by stretching the definition of rape too far (IMO). Guys aren't mindreaders (luckily, haha).

 

[Economica]

Quick response as I'm running late for a picnic:

I didn't say it wasn't rape necessarily in this situation, I was protesting about throwing around such emotionally-loaded terms when we don't know all the facts. All we know is that she doesn't remember (and therefore she thinks it was non-consensual). (...) I definitely did not assume she passed out, since I didn't read anything along those lines...she just didn't remember. If she was actually unconscious that is a very different matter and in that case I completely agree with you....because it is obvious to any potential partner that consent is impossible. (...) If you can't remember anything about an event you can't say anything about the circumstances. She may have been consensual at the time until the memory was lost. She may not have been. We can't know, so I object to making accusations when we don't know the story.

Point taken. I hereby take your position.

Note to self...:

It seems to me that you and alicia91 are assuming more than we've been told. (Oh, the delicious irony of an INTJ saying this to two ISTPs! )

... Think twice before challenging the ISTPs!

 

[Mondo]

5. Peter and Sue leave a party together. Peter walks Sue back to her room. While alone with Sue in her room, Peter kisses Sue and makes other sexual advances. Sue doesn't like Peter and doesn’t want to have sex with him. Peter thinks Sue is willing to have sex because she does not protest or resist. He has sex with her. Is it rape?

Analysis: While this situation may seem ambiguous, Sue did not make any statements or gestures that Peter could reasonably have interpreted as an affirmative expression of consent. In such cases, the perpetrator must take reasonable steps to ascertain that the victim was consenting. Lack of objection by someone is not evidence of consent, and consent is essential because sex without it is rape.

As heart said, I don't think this is realistic for a person with normal intelligence unless were drugs were involved.
However, from looking at the situation- this would be considered rape.
On the other hand, who knows what happened here? Peter could have drugged Sue up before they had sex to make her more 'mellow' and unable to object even though she would have done so in a non-drugged up situation. "Peter walks Sue back to her room"- that could have been because Sue wasn't feeling well enough to walk back there herself.

 

[Harlow_Jem]

Putting all the "rape" discussions aside, I've updated my situation in my original post, so please help me encode this ESFJ!