[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Fi vs Fe

[Forever]

So I don't know if something was posted like this before but what would you say is the difference between Fi and Fe when it comes to morality?

I also heard people tie Fi to sympathy and Fe to empathy, and then another was like they're both empathetic in different ways.

Also I know as an INFJ I would theoretically have strong Fe, but there are sometimes where I know what I'm feeling because of a certain thing bugged me very much, for example a personal attack on an experience I much shared about with a close friend on my experiences with people and then to mess it all up and it gets me infuriated and I don't need public opinion to tell me that's not something to get upset for.

But yet, there are days where I'll feel others pain without noticing anything like I'll get headache like from a customer having a hard time and actually the part of my head will be pointing or reflecting that where the person is being frustrated with something. Like she will be northwest of me, and the northwestern part of my head will hurt when I'm facing North.

I think I have Ti because I always loved the theory more than the actual process or result of something like for example, Chemistry. I found the theory way more fascinating than seeing the results like in a experiment for a class.

I don't think I have a strong moral compass but I do tend to value women more than men, (I'm a guy) and I have things I would never ever want to do and that is to manipulate others even for selling purposes, I strongly value knowledge that people should always (or most of the time) be fully informed of something before making a decision. I'm highly sensitive to physical touch and I can get hurt by personal attacks.

Although recently, I have been way more easy to put up with people's scoff's or murmurings for little things which I know I have no fault of, rather than the past I used to think almost everything was my fault. But now I also perceive that sometimes I may not care when I should about others, I always remember specific people who put their efforts on me even if I deem them fake and insincere. For example, I bought a pair of expensive noise-cancelling headphones and this lady I could see that she kept stumbling on her words and trying to encourage me to buy it and I could detect lies in it that weren't true about her just trying to connect with me. I came specifically to that store to get the model and my mind was made up, so I didn't care about her persuasion, just wanted to buy the headphones.

Later, she comes to my workplace wearing her store's work shirt and almost gave me an expectant look like I needed to recognize her, but I didn't. I came off cold, and just a few months afterwards this thought came in my head, and I wonder if it really would've mattered to recognize her.

I think I go in and out of these stages of *maybe* Fi and Fe. I never really thought I had to exactly conform myself, except in certain situations just to preserve the peace but never really changing what really were my ideas about things.

For most of all what I feel is anxiousness and tenseness and nothingness so I can't really say I have Fi, but I also really like when people have manners and say hello and smile. I do like a bit of small talk and that can annoy some of my thinking friends, I like short small talk and then transition to deep things. It's kind of weird.

 

[Southern Kross]

I also heard people tie Fi to sympathy and Fe to empathy, and then another was like they're both empathetic in different ways.

It's the other way round: Fi=empathy (ie. understand) and Fe=sympathy (ie. emulate). Of course this is totally oversimplifying it and all types use empathy, yada yada yada.

You sort of hit on it to near the beginning: Fe relates more through shared experience and mirroring - "I see that you are in pain or hear that you have experienced painful things and this is reflected in me". It's not necessarily anything to do with conformity. Fe users just like to be on the same page as others, communication-wise, and prefer to use a common yardstick of human behaviour to measure and figure people out (eg. if they're lying or not).

Fi relates by inferring and sensing the internal state of another person; evaluating people on a case-by-case basis, using a different yardstick for each person. Fi-users have to get inside another person's head to grasp their emotional experience and way of thinking. They are interested in the way outward displays of feeling and internal states compare and contrast, and feed into and undermine one another. Fi can fail miserably in the mirroring and establishing rapport part of interaction because it tends to look straight past this stuff - it's not directed towards creating solid communication channels.

 

[Forever]

It's the other way round: Fi=empathy (ie. understand) and Fe=sympathy (ie. emulate). Of course this is totally oversimplifying it and all types use empathy, yada yada yada.

You sort of hit on it to near the beginning: Fe relates more through shared experience and mirroring - "I see that you are in pain or hear that you have experienced painful things and this is reflected in me". It's not necessarily anything to do with conformity. Fe users just like to be on the same page as others, communication-wise, and prefer to use a common yardstick of human behaviour to measure and figure people out (eg. if they're lying or not).

Fi relates by inferring and sensing the internal state of another person; evaluating people on a case-by-case basis, using a different yardstick for each person. Fi-users have to get inside another person's head to grasp their emotional experience and way of thinking. They are interested in the way outward displays of feeling and internal states compare and contrast, and feed into and undermine one another. Fi can fail miserably in the mirroring and establishing rapport part of interaction because it tends to look straight past this stuff - it's not directed towards creating solid communication channels.

Thank you [MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION]!
I understand a little bit better now, but not really to know if I am really using Fe or Fi. I don't think I give empathy to everyone and some times sympathy to others. I really do like hearing minority groups or that some deem taboo and hearing their stories and some of them when hearing their stories or way quite way I actually begin to respect them even though my parents will think their nuts for thinking to be like that. So that could give an Fi vibe. I don't think I am an expert into connecting with everyone smoothly and effortlessly since I don't know about people's lives as much especially just first time ever meeting the person, being the cashier I am.

Thanks for not judging.

 

[Andy]

The difference between Fi and Fe is nothing to do with empathy or sympathy. User of both can display either or neither. The difference is in how they react to these feelings.

Fi is the urge to create opinions based upon ideas of moral, emotional or social worth or value. Fe is the urge to act upon social, moral or emotional needs or opportunities. Fi is introverted and focused inwards, towards the world of contemplation or thought. Fe is extroverted and focused outwards into the world around us. Fi leads to thought, Fe to action.

 

[Forever]

The difference between Fi and Fe is nothing to do with empathy or sympathy. User of both can display either or neither. The difference is in how they react to these feelings.

Fi is the urge to create opinions based upon ideas of moral, emotional or social worth or value. Fe is the urge to act upon social, moral or emotional needs or opportunities. Fi is introverted and focused inwards, towards the world of contemplation or thought. Fe is extroverted and focused outwards into the world around us. Fi leads to thought, Fe to action.

Are you sure about that [MENTION=8554]Andy[/MENTION]? They're both judging functions, I could see action regardless and maybe Fi could be more towards the self than others or on selective groups. I would think both would produce thought and action.

Unless now I could see it as Fi's process for doing needs to be Te? as Ti's process for Fe?

 

[Southern Kross]

Thank you [MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION]!
I understand a little bit better now, but not really to know if I am really using Fe or Fi. I don't think I give empathy to everyone and some times sympathy to others. I really do like hearing minority groups or that some deem taboo and hearing their stories and some of them when hearing their stories or way quite way I actually begin to respect them even though my parents will think their nuts for thinking to be like that. So that could give an Fi vibe. I don't think I am an expert into connecting with everyone smoothly and effortlessly since I don't know about people's lives as much especially just first time ever meeting the person, being the cashier I am.

Thanks for not judging.

You're getting hung up on the concept and not focussing enough on the process itself. Both Fe and Fi can result in behaviour that is outwardly very similar (if not identical), however they use very different routes to get to that same point. The empathy vs sympathy dichotomy is more analogous to the way each go about relating to other people. Fe is more outside-in and Fi is more inside-out. Fe focuses on external data and Fi focuses on internal data. Fe evaluates with broad strokes and Fi evaluates with greater depth. Fe has more immediacy and is action-oriented (because it is broad) and Fi is more questioning, probing, and analytical (because it is deep).

The important thing is not to confuse these qualities with your Perceiving functions. If you are a INFJ then you lead with Ni, which seeks a convergence of ideas and unpacks and explores reality to a great depth. This at first glance seem like Fi, which also is focused on depth, but it isn't the same thing at all.

Are you sure about that [MENTION=8554]Andy[/MENTION]? They're both judging functions, I could see action regardless and maybe Fi could be more towards the self than others or on selective groups. I would think both would produce thought and action.

Unless now I could see it as Fi's process for doing needs to be Te? as Ti's process for Fe?

Fe is action-oriented in a way Fi is not. Look at the Keirsey's descriptors for NF types: he says NFJs are mentors and NFPs are advocates. This reflects the difference between Fe-dom/aux and Fi-dom/aux in terms of how they demonstrate their skills in interpersonal matters. NFJs seek more direct impact on the world and people around them though guiding and assisting others to be the best they can be. NFPs however, aren't as driven to affect the world (and people) that directly - they seek to be more supportive of and defensive about values and ideas to create an environment that is best for others.

 

[Forever]

You're getting hung up on the concept and not focussing enough on the process itself. Both Fe and Fi can result in behaviour that is outwardly very similar (if not identical), however they use very different routes to get to that same point. The empathy vs sympathy dichotomy is more analogous to the way each go about relating to other people. Fe is more outside-in and Fi is more inside-out. Fe focuses on external data and Fi focuses on internal data. Fe evaluates with broad strokes and Fi evaluates with greater depth. Fe has more immediacy and is action-oriented (because it is broad) and Fi is more questioning, probing, and analytical (because it is deep).

The important thing is not to confuse these qualities with your Perceiving functions. If you are a INFJ then you lead with Ni, which seeks a convergence of ideas and unpacks and explores reality to a great depth. This at first glance seem like Fi, which also is focused on depth, but it isn't the same thing at all.


Fe is action-oriented in a way Fi is not. Look at the Keirsey's descriptors for NF types: he says NFJs are mentors and NFPs are advocates. This reflects the difference between Fe-dom/aux and Fi-dom/aux in terms of how they demonstrate their skills in interpersonal matters. NFJs seek more direct impact on the world and people around them though guiding and assisting others to be the best they can be. NFPs however, aren't as driven to affect the world (and people) that directly - they seek to be more supportive of and defensive about values and ideas to create an environment that is best for others.

I see then by that description, I am very much more an Fe user. Thanks [MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION] again.

 

[Andy]

Are you sure about that [MENTION=8554]Andy[/MENTION]? They're both judging functions, I could see action regardless and maybe Fi could be more towards the self than others or on selective groups. I would think both would produce thought and action.

Unless now I could see it as Fi's process for doing needs to be Te? as Ti's process for Fe?

Yes, I'm sure about that. Fi acts mostly through Pe, which is the urge to explore, experiment and act spontaneously. Fi acts as a filter for Pe, sorting desirable options from the near endless possibilities. Fi relegates Te to the inferior possition because Fi is based in jugements of value and worth, whereas Te is about practical or logistical need or opportunity. It is difficult to both seek higher values while being completely pragmatic at the same time. Fi relegates Fe to the shadow functions because they are fundamentally exculsive - both concern social matters, but do so from opposite ends of the spectrum, one pragmatic, the other value based. Te manages to occupy a place amongst the concious functions because while it is pragmatic, it is not directly concerned with social issues, allowing it to squeeze into the inferior position.

Fe mostly thinks through Pi, the urge to contemplate the way things work and to plan ahead. The contemplations of Pi shape how Fe judges what is necessary.

Through these considerations it is possible to see why Pe acts as the auxillary for dominant Fi and Pi acts as the auxillary for dominant Fe. To achieve balance within the mind there must be a mixture of urges pushing towards both action and contemplation. If only introverted urges exist, as in an IFP stuck in the tertiory temptation, only the urge to contemplation is exists and the person thinks, worries and dithers but never actually does anything. A double extroversion leads to endless action without learning learning from past mistakes or sitting down to think of a better way of doing things. However for Fi, this balance can only come from Pe, because Je is incompatible with Fi. For Fe it was to be Pi because Fiis incompatible.

 

[cacaia]

Yes, I'm sure about that. Fi acts mostly through Pe, which is the urge to explore, experiment and act spontaneously. Fi acts as a filter for Pe, sorting desirable options from the near endless possibilities. Fi relegates Te to the inferior possition because Fi is based in jugements of value and worth, whereas Te is about practical or logistical need or opportunity. It is difficult to both seek higher values while being completely pragmatic at the same time. Fi relegates Fe to the shadow functions because they are fundamentally exculsive - both concern social matters, but do so from opposite ends of the spectrum, one pragmatic, the other value based. Te manages to occupy a place amongst the concious functions because while it is pragmatic, it is not directly concerned with social issues, allowing it to squeeze into the inferior position.

Fe mostly thinks through Pi, the urge to contemplate the way things work and to plan ahead. The contemplations of Pi shape how Fe judges what is necessary.

Through these considerations it is possible to see why Pe acts as the auxillary for dominant Fi and Pi acts as the auxillary for dominant Fe. To achieve balance within the mind there must be a mixture of urges pushing towards both action and contemplation. If only introverted urges exist, as in an IFP stuck in the tertiory temptation, only the urge to contemplation is exists and the person thinks, worries and dithers but never actually does anything. A double extroversion leads to endless action without learning learning from past mistakes or sitting down to think of a better way of doing things. However for Fi, this balance can only come from Pe, because Je is incompatible with Fi. For Fe it was to be Pi because Fiis incompatible.

Mmm. Interesting. So, I have a question for you.
When my first daughter was born and my sister held her in her arms, she said, "This is nice. But it's not as nice as MY baby."
I am currently trying to type my sister. I associate this to be Fi. Would I be correct??
She also seems to think that everyone should think like her. Another example would be: "You like Gryffindor better than Ravenclaw? Why????" I also associated this with Fi.
Am I correct? Please shed a light.

 

[Cellmold]

Fe sucks.

Fi sucks dick.

 

[1487610420]

Fe sucks.

Fi sucks dick.

can confirm

 

[Non_xsense]

We need both ... It's almost imposible for inferior being like us reaching the completed self by just using one perspective.
Both are fucking smart and fucking idiots at the same time...

 

[notmyapples]

Mmm. Interesting. So, I have a question for you.
When my first daughter was born and my sister held her in her arms, she said, "This is nice. But it's not as nice as MY baby."
I am currently trying to type my sister. I associate this to be Fi. Would I be correct??
She also seems to think that everyone should think like her. Another example would be: "You like Gryffindor better than Ravenclaw? Why????" I also associated this with Fi.
Am I correct? Please shed a light.

This doesn't sound like Fi at all. It sounds like some kind of ESXJ, either way with bad Fi.

 

[Earl Grey]

Mmm. Interesting. So, I have a question for you.
When my first daughter was born and my sister held her in her arms, she said, "This is nice. But it's not as nice as MY baby."
I am currently trying to type my sister. I associate this to be Fi. Would I be correct??
She also seems to think that everyone should think like her. Another example would be: "You like Gryffindor better than Ravenclaw? Why????" I also associated this with Fi.
Am I correct? Please shed a light.

I'd throw in bad Fe, too.

 

[cacaia]

This doesn't sound like Fi at all. It sounds like some kind of ESXJ, either way with bad Fi.

I've been trying to type that girl for so long. She took the 16 personalities test and got a INFJ. I thought to myself, "If she's INFJ, I definitely am not!!!!" She seems to favor Fi over Fe, for sure. With that said, she cares about climate change and has gone on a crusade to try to convince as many people as possible to do something about it and take drastic measures in their lives to make it stop.
One time, she asked me how she would be able to convince people to do as she does. My answer to her was, "Lead by example. You won't be able to make people change their minds. The only thing you can do is tell people about what you are doing to ease your own carbon print. Maybe people will be inspired and do the same."
But that wasn't good enough of an answer. She does catastrophize when stressed, and she also over-plans. Everything.
I was thinking she might definitely be an ESFJ, but was not sure....so thanks, notmyapples, for confirming my hunch....

 

[Andy]

Mmm. Interesting. So, I have a question for you.
When my first daughter was born and my sister held her in her arms, she said, "This is nice. But it's not as nice as MY baby."
I am currently trying to type my sister. I associate this to be Fi. Would I be correct??
She also seems to think that everyone should think like her. Another example would be: "You like Gryffindor better than Ravenclaw? Why????" I also associated this with Fi.
Am I correct? Please shed a light.

Well Fi represents the urge to form opinions based on ideals of moral, emotional, or social worth, so I guess what you are describing could be Fi, although it is a little hard to tell from such isolated snippets. I shouldn't put too much weight on her believing people should think like her - pretty much any type can do that, it's more to do with experience and maturity than anything else.

 

[cacaia]

Well Fi represents the urge to form opinions based on ideals of moral, emotional, or social worth, so I guess what you are describing could be Fi, although it is a little hard to tell from such isolated snippets. I shouldn't put too much weight on her believing people should think like her - pretty much any type can do that, it's more to do with experience and maturity than anything else.

The other thing that really truly baffles me is this:
My sister gives so much devotion to her younger child.Her eldest, however, has clashed in ideals with her mother- The eldest is questioning gender roles and is asking your typical teenage questions- why does the world have to be this way? Why do I have to live like a girl? Why can't I try out a male persona, etc
These questions shake my sister up to a point where she imagines her daughter will go off and have an operation ("with what money will she do that?" I ask her. "She can't. She's a kid"). Then my sister promptly dismisses anything her eldest says or does, and doesn't give the kid enough credit. it's all about the youngest one.
I once point blank asked her, "it seems you have a preference over your children."
She replied. 'Yes. So what?"
And the thing is, the eldest kid is in every single AP class available at her school, always studying, super bright kid. I just don't get it. I feel that my sister prefers fi because, if you don't agree with her, you are against her. She seems to struggle to see all sides of a situation and place herself in other people's shoes.....

 

[cascadeco]

The other thing that really truly baffles me is this:
My sister gives so much devotion to her younger child.Her eldest, however, has clashed in ideals with her mother- The eldest is questioning gender roles and is asking your typical teenage questions- why does the world have to be this way? Why do I have to live like a girl? Why can't I try out a male persona, etc
These questions shake my sister up to a point where she imagines her daughter will go off and have an operation ("with what money will she do that?" I ask her. "She can't. She's a kid"). Then my sister promptly dismisses anything her eldest says or does, and doesn't give the kid enough credit. it's all about the youngest one.
I once point blank asked her, "it seems you have a preference over your children."
She replied. 'Yes. So what?"
And the thing is, the eldest kid is in every single AP class available at her school, always studying, super bright kid. I just don't get it. I feel that my sister prefers fi because, if you don't agree with her, you are against her. She seems to struggle to see all sides of a situation and place herself in other people's shoes.....

Well I mean all of this can totally be just judging-dom -- so imo has little to do with Fi/Fe -- or rather, everything you mention doesn't even strike me as Fi; it could easily be Fe too. I do agree with others that ExFJ seems super possible. Fe-dom can totally assert/try to impose their own views and perceptions onto everyone else. From what you describe her 'flavor' of it seems more authoritarian/ asserting/trying to change everyone elses' mind -- so seems more extroverted in nature. (this is the negative side of what is encompassed by 'Fe' -- not the warm nurturing side). It seems to me your other option would be ExTJ with bad Fi - they'll be more assertive in imposing selves/views as well -- all of the ExxJ's share that in common.

I guess my main point is -- the bolded can apply to Fe or Fi.

 

[Andy]

The other thing that really truly baffles me is this:
My sister gives so much devotion to her younger child.Her eldest, however, has clashed in ideals with her mother- The eldest is questioning gender roles and is asking your typical teenage questions- why does the world have to be this way? Why do I have to live like a girl? Why can't I try out a male persona, etc
These questions shake my sister up to a point where she imagines her daughter will go off and have an operation ("with what money will she do that?" I ask her. "She can't. She's a kid"). Then my sister promptly dismisses anything her eldest says or does, and doesn't give the kid enough credit. it's all about the youngest one.
I once point blank asked her, "it seems you have a preference over your children."
She replied. 'Yes. So what?"
And the thing is, the eldest kid is in every single AP class available at her school, always studying, super bright kid. I just don't get it. I feel that my sister prefers fi because, if you don't agree with her, you are against her. She seems to struggle to see all sides of a situation and place herself in other people's shoes.....

What I'm seeing here is that your sister seems to have a lack of empathy, and that's not a type issue, despite what many people will try to tell you. Functions aren't abilities (or lack there of). An un-empathic person could have a high Fi, with well developed and thought out ideas on morality and social issues who nevertheless struggles to see when they are upsetting someone. They'd probably feel quite guilty about it once they found out.

It's also important to note that a frequently expressed function is not necessarily a highly placed one in the function order. The function order is more to do with how much effort goes into the function. Lower placed functions tend to be expressed in less sophisticated ways, but can still be very influential. Often entire facets that are seen in a more developed function are missing. For example, your sister seems to have clear sense of what matters to her, but little though is given to the feelings of others.

From what you are telling me, I suspect Fi is a poorly developed function in your sister and she is unlikely to be an FP type.

 

[LucieCat]

The other thing that really truly baffles me is this: My sister gives so much devotion to her younger child.Her eldest, however, has clashed in ideals with her mother- The eldest is questioning gender roles and is asking your typical teenage questions- why does the world have to be this way? Why do I have to live like a girl? Why can't I try out a male persona, etc These questions shake my sister up to a point where she imagines her daughter will go off and have an operation ("with what money will she do that?" I ask her. "She can't. She's a kid"). Then my sister promptly dismisses anything her eldest says or does, and doesn't give the kid enough credit. it's all about the youngest one. I once point blank asked her, "it seems you have a preference over your children." She replied. 'Yes. So what?" And the thing is, the eldest kid is in every single AP class available at her school, always studying, super bright kid. I just don't get it. I feel that my sister prefers fi because, if you don't agree with her, you are against her. She seems to struggle to see all sides of a situation and place herself in other people's shoes.....

She sounds like an unhealthy Fe user to me. I can't explain it exactly, but she demonstrates a lot of qualities I find tend to emerge in unhealthy Fe.

She also seems to have a problem with empathy, which isn't tied into the personality type. Fe users can be extremely empathetic. I've also encountered many who are not.

I think her inability to see all sides of the situation could be due to an extremely dysfunctional Si/Ne combo. Si when unhealthy can get stuck in a rut of "This works it's the right way, nothing else will ever come close." Coupled with Fe, this can mean tightly clinging onto specific social values and constructs and becoming harshly critical of anyone does not comply.

So, that's why I'd say she is an unhealthy ESFJ most likely. I feel ESFJs get a lot of slack in typology communities. Which I think is unfair because there are some amazing ESFJs out there. I tend to find the unhealthy, toxic ones can be complete pieces of work though. There's also a difference between just unhealthy ones and toxic ones.

Based on your description, your sister also seems that she may have narcissistic personallty traits.