Video: INFJ Communication Style

[PeaceBaby]

I don't think this is the right way to look at it. As much as it might not seem l like it, of all people, us Ni-doms realize just how much we don't know. We seek depth of understanding and insight however. It's just how we're built. Yes, we have a great deal of confidence in our perceptions, but they are just that - perceptions. Those perceptions can be changed with new evidence.

Ah, but in the realm of people it is the only way it can be looked at. See, Te vs Ti gets the benefit of referencing the "real world" to a much higher degree. Tell me, where exactly does one get invisible Fi evidence from to prove Fe assertions incorrect? How does one prove an Fe deception? Very difficult, and there's a high degree of obfuscation that can make anything look at least a bit innocent.

Can you imagine living life like this - to have this constant quest for evolving your insights about things and realize that there is no possible way you can ever come close to knowing enough? That's what it is like.

Well, I believe that INFPs tend to be pretty much on the idealistic side. When you combine that with dominant Fi, it can lead to what can be perceived by others as an ivory tower mentality. Maybe that is where the Fi elitist reference comes from? Again, there is the analogy I can provide that INTJs can feel the same way about INTPs. The difference is that it is about thinking and intellectual perspective rather than values. Then again, ESTJs probably think that about INTJs so...

I know where the reference comes from. It comes from me first, actually. I was the first person to say that out loud in reference to the current dynamic. I know my words can be heard as holier-than-thou, but that's my frame of reference interpreted through other lenses and not how I feel inside about these things. Why does the expression of that truth not matter here? Why can someone insult another person in this way and not be infracted for that? It's so sly and so very well done.

Sometimes, I think this forum is like a laboratory. People get upset about things and then actually talk about why they are upset because of the type of forum it is. We know what type they are so we get a chance to see how the interaction works. It's unfortunate that some INFJs feel driven away by certain types of interaction. I also feel badly that you seem upset.

No, people do not talk about them. Not openly and not freely and not to any type of resolution. Ironically, I am the e9 here! I do appreciate you expressing something about my feelings, but I don't feel like you see what's going on either so that is a bit frustrating to me. But thanks for that.

 

[Ene]

[MENTION=7040]Forever_Jung[/MENTION] I love this.

I think Miss INFJ just needs to know why in order to motivate herself to do the task. I bet a lot of tension would be eliminated if the boss just relaxed a little and showed her some of the big picture. Also, the INFJ would probably be more motivated and feel better about her work.

I DO ask why, all of the time. If something seems exceptionally pointless, I really need to see the validity of it before I can buy into it. According to the video on INTJ communication style, this is a characteristic that we share in common. We ask "why". I suppose then, that it may be Ni fueled. Also, I think that for the INFJ, at least for me, there is an insatiable need to constantly learn and understand. We must know why, so we ask and ask and ask. I not only ask why, I ask how, and when and where and what. I have exasperated more than one boss, but not intentionally.

[MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION] and [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] I think you are onto something, but I would like to take it a step further. I don't think it is ONLY that Fi and Fe are different. I think that it is the entire alignment of functions that is different and responsible for gap. The reason I say that is that Fe is an auxiliary function, not a dominant one in INFJs. The very placement of it means that its role in an INFJ is not as prominent as the role of Fi in an INFP. Then our secondary functions are also flipped in order so that it is fair to say that Ne in an INFP is not as dominant as Ni in an INFJ. Therefore, I think it's safe to say that perhaps isn't so much as Fi vs. Fe as it is Ni vs. Fi and Ne vs. Fe. Then comes the Ti vs. Te and Se vs. Si. Do you see what I'm driving at? Our entire cognitive matrix is a mismatch! We "almost" communicate. We feel a kinship but are basically from different cognitive worlds. I keep thinking of the old cliché "two ships passing in the night." It's as [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] said, there is something lost in the translation. I do think that Ne and Ni really balance each other out when they share the same place in the functional order. That is probably why I communicate more easily with ENFPs and ENTPs but sometimes struggle to understand INFPs and INTPs, even though I may really like them as people.

I think part of the breakdown on forums comes when people [of all and any functions] begin to take things personally and somehow feel "targeted" as opposed to objectively looking at the function and not the individual person (I'm not referring to anyone one person here but speaking in generalities.) We can't take another's perception as an attack on our type and even if it is, should we allow that to stop us from seeking to understand?

In other words, if a member talks about a tendency that she's noticed in INFJs, she isn't personally attaching me. She's stating what she's observed. She's letting me see through her eyes. I can either be offended because I don't like what she sees or I can say, "Okay, so that's what you see? Go on. Maybe I can figure out why you see that." If I become irritated by her views I have ceased to be objective and somehow taken it to mean that she is attacking the essence of who I am, which is not usually the case. However, a retaliatory comment only causes verbal hostility and dams up the flow of communication. If we want to really learn about each other then we must remain objective about ourselves. For me that means stepping back and attempting to listen, trying to understand, gathering all the Intel I can gather and then comparing it, analyzing it and finally making some sort of sense of it in a way that helps people in some tangible way. For other types, it may mean something different.

Cool, I just now read this post from [MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION]which seems to be saying sort of the same thing.

Sometimes, I think this forum is like a laboratory. People get upset about things and then actually talk about why they are upset because of the type of forum it is. We know what type they are so we get a chance to see how the interaction works.

I know some people don't really like conflict but we can learn from it. It's useful at times. It can be a good thing.

Yes, it can and it doesn't have to be "personal." If we can discuss ideas and not take offense to opposing viewpoints, there may be few limits to what we can learn.

[MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION] that list is excellent.

 

[highlander]

I do appreciate you expressing something about my feelings, but I don't feel like you see what's going on either so that is a bit frustrating to me. But thanks for that.

I admit that I do not understand a lot of it. It's a little bit like this NF Jiu-Jitsu thing. I'm just not nuanced enough to follow the machinations.

 

[highlander]

[MENTION=7040]Forever_Jung[/MENTION]
[MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION] and [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] I think you are onto something, but I would like to take it a step further. I don't think it is ONLY that Fi and Fe are different. I think that it is the entire alignment of functions that is different and responsible for gap. The reason I say that is that Fe is an auxiliary function, not a dominant one in INFJs. The very placement of it means that its role in an INFJ is not as prominent as the role of Fi in an INFP. Then our secondary functions are also flipped in order so that it is fair to say that Ne in an INFP is not as dominant as Ni in an INFJ. Therefore, I think it's safe to say that perhaps isn't so much as Fi vs. Fe as it is Ni vs. Fi and Ne vs. Fe. Then comes the Ti vs. Te and Se vs. Si. Do you see what I'm driving at? Our entire cognitive matrix is a mismatch! We "almost" communicate. We feel a kinship but are basically from different cognitive worlds. I keep thinking of the old cliché "two ships passing in the night." It's as [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] said, there is something lost in the translation. I do think that Ne and Ni really balance each other out when they share the same place in the functional order. That is probably why I communicate more easily with ENFPs and ENTPs but sometimes struggle to understand INFPs and INTPs, even though I may really like them as people.

Ok, so INFP is Fi>Ne>Si>Te and INFJ is Ni>Fe>Ti>Se - no shared functions whatsoever. Makes you wonder what validity there is to Keirsey's idealist temperament. INFJs seem more like ISFJs to me than INFPs. INFPs and ENFPs seem to have some things in common though.

 

[PeaceBaby]

[MENTION=7040][MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION] and [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] I think you are onto something, but I would like to take it a step further. I don't think it is ONLY that Fi and Fe are different. I think that it is the entire alignment of functions that is different and responsible for gap.

Here are links to some brainstorming I did a while back on that (there's more but I can't think where it is atm):

Part 1: http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...48-infps-infjs-drives-nuts-8.html#post2025312

Part 2: http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...48-infps-infjs-drives-nuts-8.html#post2025411

Part 3: http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...48-infps-infjs-drives-nuts-8.html#post2025443

From your thread, actually. I never did finish Part 4, it's half done somewhere on this compy. Maybe I should revisit it, and all of these.

Edited: I have my posts set to 100 per page. These links won't work if you have yours different. Here they are spoilered instead

PART 1:

Brainstorming out loud, to see if anything catches:

I've touched on this before, but looking to expand on it. Apologies for Ne'ing out loud, dear Ni'ers:

Ni dom vs Ne aux ... Fi dom vs Fe aux. Both of us have the opposite function of each other's dominant in the auxiliary position, the "problem-solver" position. To me, this means we tend to look at that function as our salvation to a certain extent, and this makes it challenging for us to see the downsides of the function overall. We tend to feel positive when engaging it. We don't see the problems it creates as clearly, because although it is essential for us to lean on that function, the very act of leaning on it means we trust it more.

(And yes, I also see the irony of Ne'ing right here in this post. No need to point it out Mane!)

That said, Fe is there working in the problem-solving role to discern and adjust to the needs of others, even to the point of getting the feelings of others mixed up with one's own. (Note to self: Could it be that OA's grumpy tone was just 'catchy'?) Other characteristics that grow out of Fe are the values of being polite, considerate and socially appropriate in one's behavior. It seems to me that most of what the INFJ's are saying here falls within that catchment area, that they need this protocol of interaction to be established before they can even entertain to engage in a more trust-oriented, two-way relationship.

Additionally, Fe'ers tend to need to feel appreciated. They are sensitive to what others think of them. They are easily hurt within that purview. When someone falls out of the bounds of good behaviour, it's natural to turn to the problem-solver to 'bite back', deploying it with intention and an element of self-protection. It's about ... connecting and disconnecting, it connects warmly and faithfully, and disconnects readily when negativity is encountered.

So, speaking broadly in terms of the N function, Ni-dom sees more readily the "dark side" of Ne in the aux, the problem with chasing the bunny down every rabbit hole, and sees that each hole does not have an equal probability of being worth searching. Ne wastes time, is inefficient and annoying. This ties into Z's metaphor of taking each spaghetti-string-bikini, size 2 to 26, into the dressing room, and how aggravating that is to watch. The problem for INFP's is that if we don't investigate each rabbit hole at least a little bit, we don't have an internal radar built-in to hone in on which has a more likely probability of being useful. We just think using it is useful, because we need to explore, out loud, to see how in the "real world" we can realistically enact our values.

Next, speaking broadly in terms of the F function, Fi-dom sees more readily the "dark side" of Fe in the aux, how it shuts down people before giving them a chance to speak, how it contains elements of what seems to look like bullying and prejudice. How it judges quickly and readily, and the inherent concerns of that. This ties into my metaphor on needing each voice to comprise a part of my knowledge-web, how hearing each voice ensures equality to create a web of strength and utility. The problem for INFJ's, if they don't use Fe at all in the 'negative' position, they risk having their boundaries violated again and again. Using it keeps them safe from those who would exploit the social contract.

More to come ... eta, I just made myself lost lol ... will add more as it arrives? If it arrives? I know I was going somewhere ...

PART 2:

So, the way we each use our aux to "problem-solve" sets off each of our uniquely and particularly wired "alarm bells". Ne aux's are looking at every possibility without pre-judging or inherently seeing any problems associated with that exploration; everything is on the table, every idea, every feeling, every judgement. We need Si data, the more the better. Fe aux's are looking at how everything that's said falls into their construct of the social landscape and chooses to accept or reject that information based on what appears pertinent within the broader context and based on their comfort levels with the other members of that group. They need Ti's logic to craft that into a workable framework. At this point, we each appear to need the tertiary function's help. BUT, the Fe aux tends to look like it's blocking the intention of the Ne aux, whilst the Ne aux appears to be breaking the rules of the social sphere. Each of us needs to do what we need to do to solve "people" conundrums, even though we do it in radically different ways. But we never get to a solid use of the tertiary because we get stuck in this dom-aux loop together. I don't get the Si data, you don't get the Ti structure accurately worked out. So how can we solve this for each other, together?

INFJ's - to continue, the factors you need to be able to connect with someone and share are:

1.) Goodwill: A demonstration of goodwill is important to open communication and proceed. (Why am I engaging in discussion; the statement of good intentions.)

2.) Commonalities: An attempt to define shared commonalities is helpful prior to the exploration of diversity. (What do we have in common vs how we are different.)

3.) Behaviour: A pattern of good behaviour enables the INFJ to maintain an openness along the way, as the expressed intention is acted out in words and proven by those actions. (How you treat me is a reflection of how you feel about our interaction together.)

4.) Goal: A statement of the goal enables the INFJ to pull the appropriate data from their file folders. (Why do you need this, how will it help us reach the goal?)

INFJ's - look at my list above, see if I've hit the major factors.

Part 3 comes after I feed my brain with dinner, and a bit more cogitating.

PART 3:

It's kind of like a search party made up of people that loosely fall into two groups ... the first group believes the best way to find the lost person is to use a map and figure out where to go based on the last known location. The second group believes that the best way to find the lost person is by trying to put themselves in the shoes of the lost person and guess what they might do. Ne-aux grabs the map and Fe-aux protests it was rude to do that. Fi-dom says, "I need to see where we need to go, there's new terrain I've yet to explore" and Ni-dom says, "I've already narrowed it down so let's go where I've decided you need to go." Fi-Ne says, "You don't have a right to pre-select, the lost person could be ANYWHERE!" and Ni-Fe says, "You need to follow the protocol of chain of command here, mister." We . get . stuck.

If an INFP wants to engage an INFJ, this protocol has the potential to positively start the process and helps to ensure communication can ensue. The process has to start somewhere, and since Fe-aux puts up the first protest, the Fi-Ne person is in the best position to help communications reach the next level.

Assuming the INFP can use the list above, at this point, we look to the INFJ:

INFP's - the factors we need to connect with someone and share are:

1.) Compassion: A demonstration of compassion towards the emotions we are trying to process. (Why are you hurting, your hurting matters to me.)

2.) Acceptance and Tolerance: An attempt to accommodate that fact that emotions and logic may be intermingled, especially in emotional moments. (This has been difficult for you, how can I help? Asking questions to clarify emotion.)

3.) Suspension of Judgement: An effort to listen without placing information within the larger context; the suspension of offering solutions. (The suspension of judgement shows you believe I can figure this out.)

4.) Open-mindedness: Believing that although the path appears obscure, we will get to our destination. (We can get there together; I can help remind you of our goal. We are ok.)

This hopefully leads to mutual trust. And this trust can be the fundament I believe of some excellent discussions together. Most importantly, we can't jump immediately to our aux to problem-solve, or we end up in the stuck place again. When Fi-Ne hears their "alarm bells" we need to stop and ask ourselves, "Am I presenting too many options, mixed messages, emotions mixed with data?" Fi-Ne can then state out loud what is venting vs what is not to help reduce "white noise". When Ni-Fe hears their "alarm bells", it's important to declare out loud that the "alarm bells" are ringing, and that you are overwhelmed with mixed messages and need time to process. Ask for clarification. Ask if this is venting or theorizing, or if there's an agenda or goal. Ask for time-out.

Now, the hinge point: The Ti tert and the Si tert can also be tripping points. This part, I need to work on further, further than I can suss out of my heart and brain tonight. But suffice it to say, we need to be able to tolerate from each other, respectively and to a certain degree, Si's need for copious amounts of data and Ti's need to nit-pick into the details and nitty-gritty of interaction.

This IS a work in progress. Add, subtract, pick apart. It might be the start of some sort of explanation of why INFJ's and INFP's have trouble interacting in a mutually desirable way? I mean, we WANT to, each of us, yet it hits these bumps in the road that I believe might be navigable.

PART 4 to follow .....

 

[FemMecha]

Ok, so INFP is Fi>Ne>Si>Te and INFJ is Ni>Fe>Ti>Se - no shared functions whatsoever. Makes you wonder what validity there is to Keirsey's idealist temperament. INFJs seem more like ISFJs to me than INFPs. INFPs and ENFPs seem to have some things in common though.

There are so many possible factors to make people (dis)similar. I've gone through this time and again, and I think that the stereotypes of INFJs lean towards ISFJ, but they would think most like an INTJ. Realize that an ISFJ's dominant function is the single most baffling thing to an INFJ and vice versa. Both are introverted and tend to have a strong need to connect, so that's similar.

Strangely enough i've lately noticed difficulty in telling INFJ and ENFPs apart (even though I know the stereotypes for the two are extremely different). I'm actually dating a guy right now who I think is an INFJ E9 like me, but it's not impossible that he is an ENFP. Even in discussions online I've found myself thinking a lot like ENFPs.

I do think that INFJs and INFP have some notable differences, but my impression is that the actual reality of it is quite intertwined and tangled and not nearly as clear and categorical as these discussion assume. Even the question of people assuming inner motivations can happen from either type. I've also had the opportunity to grow up with an INFP and it is really interesting how much we share in common - in part because we have the same culture and ideals, but it also goes deeper than that.

This isn't a formal MBTI idea as far as I know, but based on experience and observation, it seems like people who have extremely strong dominant functions can demonstrate both the introverted and extroverted forms of it. What do you think?

 

[Seymour]

Ok, so INFP is Fi>Ne>Si>Te and INFJ is Ni>Fe>Ti>Se - no shared functions whatsoever. Makes you wonder what validity there is to Keirsey's idealist temperament. INFJs seem more like ISFJs to me than INFPs. INFPs and ENFPs seem to have some things in common though.

Well, just to take the contrarian position... I think INFs have a lot in common in many ways (they are about depth, the abstract, and the importance of values and harmonizing). I think it's more of a difference of means than of ends. We all tend to want to maximize positive relations, harmonize with the self and others, and defend positions with are easily discounted by the larger culture. We both tend to care too much, regardless of context.

From a preferences point of view, I think the teasing apart FP vs FJ (vs the associated EF and IF, which tend to be dragged in when "Fe" is translated as EFJ, and "Fi" is translated as "IFP") can help illuminate some things that a "functions" point of view tends to obscure.

For example, I don't think it's fair to call INFJs' Feeling "shallow", because I think their introversion gives a depth and intensiveness that calling their feeling function "extraverted" tends to belie. I think it's helpful to think of FPs as optimizing Feeling in the present and for the specifics, and FJs as optimizing Feeing across time and cross-contextually. FJs have a much better sense of both "momentum" (that is, change over time) and of consistency across interpersonal contexts. In a sense, it is "shallower" as far as being less invested in the current moment and context, but in another sense it goes deeper as far as awareness of long term and cross-contextual trends. An IFJ's focus tends to be narrower and deeper than an EFJ's (just as an IFP's tends to be narrower and deeper than an EFP's).

So INFJs are, it seems, less aware of their feelings in the moment, and less invested into moment to moment (and even individual to individual) variations being significant. That means they have a higher bar in certain respects... another must show a consistent pattern to be worth investing in... their own emotions have to show repetition and patterning to be worth analyzing and granting worth to. However, they have unique strengths at being aware of subtle cross-individual and cross-time patterns that many FPs tend to be blind to.

The weakness of FPs is that we tend to be a bit future blind (I'd say more so those with a strong perceiving preference, like me), and tend to assume that THIS time (with all its unique features) will be different. We can tend to disregard the wisdom of others because others are not (and it's true!) aware of all the specifics that make THIS time and this person different. That can sometimes lead us down the primrose path into a bad situation. Sometimes we seem to have to learn the hard way, even when others warn us of avoidable dangers. FPs mostly learn from personal experience, or from the experience of those they are closest to: the warnings and advice of others are too-often disregarded.

So, I'd disagree that IFPs have little in common. Unfortunately where we differ is where the rubber tends to meet the road. This difference seems to be exacerbated online, even if I do perceive such differences in person as well. Usually in person, though, I can feel the good intent of my INFJ friend or coworker, and they are (mostly) aware of mine and the efficacy as my approach. More typically in person we are able to respect one another's gifts, even if how we go about things differs a great deal. It seems regrettable that online differences are exacerbated, and that INFP/INFJ threads (however well intentioned) tend to go down in flames, with each side feeling unfairly judged.

 

[EJCC]

[MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION]

In response to that last question that you asked Hard: What you do is you show value in a way that you know will help the other person. You understand the MBTI, so you should know what INFJs want and need. You know from reading posts by INFJs in this thread and others, exactly what INFJs want and don't want in these situations. So what you can do is use that knowledge, and the sensitivity and caring that comes with being Fi-dom, to help them in a way that focuses on THEM. When Fi-users try to help people in a way that would help another Fi-dom, only for it to backfire, the reaction can often be "How DARE you be so ungrateful when I just bared my soul to you" -- which makes the focus about YOU, when it was never supposed to be about you. It's the opposite of active listening, almost.

I can fall victim to this, too. But at the same time, I am all too familiar with the reaction that behavior consistently gets in Fe-users. So you have two options: Blame, or adapt. I've chosen to adapt.

 

[Ene]

Here are links to some brainstorming I did a while back on that (there's more but I can't think where it is atm):

Part 1: http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...48-infps-infjs-drives-nuts-8.html#post2025312

Part 2: http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...48-infps-infjs-drives-nuts-8.html#post2025411

Part 3: http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...48-infps-infjs-drives-nuts-8.html#post2025443

From your thread, actually. I never did finish Part 4, it's half done somewhere on this compy. Maybe I should revisit it, and all of these.

Thank you, I'll follow these links and read up on what you said. I've learned a lot since that thread. I admit that the enormous amount of responses began to overwhelm me after awhile. Maybe it's time I did revisit it.

[MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] ISFJs do share a couple of functions with INFJs and we work well together, and they share some common values. However, due to Si being their dominant and Ni being ours, there is the occasional knowing that I've been heard but not comprehended and I'm sure they feel that some deeply valued Si details have been dismissed as irrelevant by me, especially if I'm in a particularly contrary state of mind. For the most part, though, we do okay. My mom was ISFJ and I always felt that even though she didn't understand my mind, she knew my heart and that was always enough.

I agree with fia in that we most likely think more like INTJs. At least communication with them feels most natural.

 

[highlander]

Thank you, I'll follow these links and read up on what you said. I've learned a lot since that thread. I admit that the enormous amount of responses began to overwhelm me after awhile. Maybe it's time I did revisit it.

[MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] ISFJs do share a couple of functions with INFJs and we work well together, and they share some common values. However, due to Si being their dominant and Ni being ours, there is the occasional knowing that I've been heard but not comprehended and I'm sure they feel that some deeply valued Si details have been dismissed as irrelevant by me, especially if I'm in a particularly contrary state of mind. For the most part, though, we do okay. My mom was ISFJ and I always felt that even though she didn't understand my mind, she knew my heart and that was always enough.

That's a good way of explaining it. I think the aux Fe + tert Ti causes some similarities in the way they interact with others. This being fueled by a powerful internal perception process (Si vs Ni), makes them seem rather alike in many ways on the outside. Of course what is going on inside is vastly different because of Ni and Si. In summary, I think INFJs and ISFJs can look similar on the outside in many ways even if they are very different internally.

 

[Ene]

That's a good way of explaining it. I think the aux Fe + tert Ti causes some similarities in the way they interact with others. This being fueled by a powerful internal perception process (Si vs Ni), makes them seem rather alike in many ways on the outside. Of course what is going on inside is vastly different because of Ni and Si. In summary, I think INFJs and ISFJs can look similar on the outside in many ways even if they are very different internally.

Absolutely. Unless you get to know an INFJ you may think you're dealing with an ISFJ. We sometimes look like ISFJs on the surface.

 

[á´…eparted]

Hard, of course I won't kill you. I appreciate you, your whole post and your insight to realize how invalidating it is to Fe-shut-people up. The extroverted judging function does feel it is in the right! But here's the difference, you and I could battle it out, I would take you on and we could go toe-to-toe (although I am at a natural disadvantage). But if it was important enough to us both, we would sort it out! From your vantage point, why can't it get sorted out in INFP-INFJ-land?

(And as an aside, how Fi sounds to you just makes me want to cry lol. First, because I think I expressed myself sincerely and eloquently, and second, because "me, me, me" is not the locus of my life. Being in second, third, fourth place is very familiar in caring for my family and friends and giving to other concerns. So, to articulate that out loud, putting me "first" is so huge to me, to speak to my individuality is such a big deal, for it to be called a lack of tact is pretty horrible to read actually.)

Well, here's how I look at this. Everyone has a variety of motives for expression at any given time. It's not that I don't see them, but I don't place much faith in motives, because I see a whole bunch that just have higher and lower probabilities and some that are in conflict or alignment with each other. (eta: this could be partly a social-dominant thing, I'm not sure all INFPs would agree with seeing that stuff.) To me, it's not necessary to hard-boil it to one because there's a bunch of possibilities, so I orient myself to a certain action both taking them into account and regardless of their existence. I place more faith in the internal read I guess. Which leads me to this:

I do see your point and I think you've likely hit this straight, and I myself have freely admitted I can sound holier-than-thou. But here's the rub: how do you show value when what value you have is internal and kind of hidden? I tried opening all that up, showing the inside (which isn't that pretty really at times) and it didn't help? I can just choose to live my life as an expression of my values and remain silent. (Actions speak louder than words and all.) But we're here on the forum and all we have is words. So how do I even build a tower when those blocks are invisible to the other party? I have no interest in knocking down INFJ blocks either, but I see some of the issues in what they are building and I can't help but point them out. Don't people want to know? I sure want to know when I'm building something inefficiently, even if having it pointed out smarts.

So if you can help me cut to the chase, throw out these stumbling blocks when dealing with INFJs, I'd appreciate it. And I've tried just doing Fe speak, it doesn't work because I can't keep it up forever, the Fi pokes out.

From what I have observed two introverts in an argument of some sort persists for much longer than it would with a I/E paring, and even longer than a E/E paring. This might sound sorta rude, but extroverts generally are better communicators, are faster at it, and hold back less. Because of INFP's need for privacy and guarding, and the INFJ's need for tact and careful wording, there ends up being a lot left unsaid, and when it is said it is said at the wrong moments. It's sort of like a communication breakdown. While INFJ's have a "let's get to the point" mentality, they're easily distracted. INFP's don't often need a point of sorts (discussion is enough). It can just keep going endlessly. Often resulting in either party going "Ok, I'm done..." Then one later coming up and saying "Wait, I thought about something, now I have this to say".

AWW! Please don't cry! I really need to make the distinctions here. I know when you open up like that (or Fi's in general) it's very vulnerable and raw. I don't think I was careful enough with how I explained that. You didn't use tact, but that's ok, and in fact using it would be improper. Doing so would completely defeat the purpose and reasons behind your actions. And tact; well that's a beast of its own. It can be a double edged sword because it requires a lot of self-censoring (and is the reason for a great deal of my emotional suppression). At it's worst it can make someone a bald faced liar.

(I'm gonna be referencing motives here a lot which I know you don't put a premium on, I will get to those in a bit) Here's why I reacted the way I did, and this could be used as a sort of example for Fe/Ni and Ni/Fe reaction to this sort of thing. It's actually stemming from the fact that you never put yourself first. That's actually assumed before even reading the full post and is just gathered from the person (and I have sensed that about you). As you said, it's the reason and why behind it all. For once, you want to and have to put yourself first and take a stand. Fe will say "well, what's better is if you put yourself first more often, then this wouldn't have to happen period! Stop being a pushover/pincushion and be selfish!". Is that fair/right to you? No. Fe reacts that way because it wants personal efficiency. It takes issue with the behavior only slightly because of the perceived "me" aspect. The big issue it takes is with the reasons/events that caused it in the first place. If that could be "fixed" then it would solve the whole situation. I see this sort of thing happen a lot when I see INFP/INFJ spats happen. The INFJ will get pricked because it's seeing the INFP as "screwing up" beforehand, and not doing anything about it. Not taking into account that this is how they opperate. Further, that they're getting shut down over and over form being able to put themselves first.

Ultimately though, I was aware of the fact that how I reacted initially is not fair. Under normal circumstances I flat out don't mention it as it's not important and would just upset the other party. The reason I brought it up now is because it's highly relevant for the discussion. Fe is judgemental of motives, but also does not run off internal reactions. If it feels an internal reaction, and it doesn't align with motive or intent, then it's disregarded. Anyway I'm starting to digress from the topic at hand. I will close this part by saying: I had an reaction, dismissed it as wrong/unfair, sought to understand the intent and drive, determined it to be very respectable and honest and thus it is to be valued, and ultimately good. Under normal circumstances pre-processing does not come out. I understand, and would not for a second dismiss you for doing so, if anything, that's something I'd hug the person over for what they've done and where they're coming from. I know for Fi this can feel very icky and dishonest, but remember that Fe works on the external.

As for how to speak to others better... I sadly do not have an answer. What I could offer would be meerly what I have learned to do and how I manage, which most don't understand or flat out dislike. I'd also venture to guess it would be completely counter to how you would operate and would actually be detrimental. That said, [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] offers fantastic insight into how to go about this. Generally speaking, if you are helping someone, it's best to adapt to them so they can best absorb what is being taught. If you help another, indeed the focus has to be on the other, and the self needs to be avoided. Going into a "you're so ungreatful!" mode will completely push away the Fe user as it does not tollerate guilt triping at all.

I wouldn't worry so much of doing Fe-speak. That's not fair to ask yourself to do that anyway. I somewhat disagree with EJCC's assertion that it's either blame or adapt as I don't think it's so much binary. In particular for an INFP that could lead to them going way too far to one extreme or the other. I think something that would be helpful is for either side to consider how they deal with information. For INFP's, try and view things from a motives and purpose standpoint. For them it's not important, but INFJ's use this a good amount, if that's thought about some, it could aid in more mutual ground. For INFJ's to recognize that sometimes, there is no between-the-lines reading, and to realize that an INFP is going to self and internal reference. Don't disregard it or them. I know that might not be as substanting as you'd like, but I don't think there is as clear cut of an answer. I'm also not the best at generalizing in this sort of manner. I'm more case-by-case.

 

[PeaceBaby]

[MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION]

In response to that last question that you asked Hard: What you do is you show value in a way that you know will help the other person. You understand the MBTI, so you should know what INFJs want and need. You know from reading posts by INFJs in this thread and others, exactly what INFJs want and don't want in these situations. So what you can do is use that knowledge, and the sensitivity and caring that comes with being Fi-dom, to help them in a way that focuses on THEM. When Fi-users try to help people in a way that would help another Fi-dom, only for it to backfire, the reaction can often be "How DARE you be so ungrateful when I just bared my soul to you" -- which makes the focus about YOU, when it was never supposed to be about you. It's the opposite of active listening, almost.

I can fall victim to this, too. But at the same time, I am all too familiar with the reaction that behavior consistently gets in Fe-users. So you have two options: Blame, or adapt. I've chosen to adapt.

And your comment is what's known as Te invalidation. ok, I hear what you are saying. But God knows, I adapt all the time to other people, so telling me to adapt isn't too helpful. Some INFP descriptions call us the chameleons, and that is certainly what I do. I tailor my interactions to what other people need. But what I am saying is that here, in this forum, with an ideal that all types are allowed to be whatever type we are, why is an INFP the one expected to leave their native cognitive space?

When, in all the time you've been here, have you seen an INFJ reach out and try to do that? And I don't mean reaching out to try to understand, I mean leave their cognitive preference behind and try to talk Fi. Does not happen. So why are you telling me to leave mine? Because I have thousands of posts behind me that exemplify just that, leaving my space and adapting to the preference of others yet the favor is unrecognized and unreturned.

I have an inkling of what you'll say back. But I am appealing to your sense of what's fair - is it fair for certain cognitive languages to take precedence over others? You too are trying to shut me up in the Te rather than the Fe way.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Thanks for your whole post. You speak very well and explain things clearly - even though it's more like confirmation rather than new stuff, it is both very helpful and so sad to be reminded that Fe will always see Fi in this type of way.

I wouldn't worry so much of doing Fe-speak. That's not fair to ask yourself to do that anyway. I somewhat disagree with EJCC's assertion that it's either blame or adapt as I don't think it's so much binary. In particular for an INFP that could lead to them going way too far to one extreme or the other. I think something that would be helpful is for either side to consider how they deal with information. For INFP's, try and view things from a motives and purpose standpoint. For them it's not important, but INFJ's use this a good amount, if that's thought about some, it could aid in more mutual ground. For INFJ's to recognize that sometimes, there is no between-the-lines reading, and to realize that an INFP is going to self and internal reference. Don't disregard it or them. I know that might not be as substanting as you'd like, but I don't think there is as clear cut of an answer. I'm also not the best at generalizing in this sort of manner. I'm more case-by-case.

Well, here's the thing about motive that is difficult. For almost any action a person takes you could assign them a directional motive of binary choice, either positive or negative. Here's a quick example: in an older thread I did a Ti-style analysis of the situation at hand (changed focus and looked at T-data and emulated that Ji space.) So, I do that trying to be helpful, positive intent, again leaving my cognitive preference to reach out, and I'm accused of bad intent. Why? My intent was determined to be deceptive, trying to get closer via pretending to be Ti in order to be some sort of emo-vampire. Every good thing can be flipped over and viewed from the opposite perspective and then evidence gathered to prove that unreality.

So, if anything I do can be interpreted first by choice through a good intent / bad intent filter, and INFJs can be pretty stolid about holding onto what they believe to be that direction of your motive, what can be done about that?

And what is the proper reaction when Fe is trying to shut you up? Mine is to say, I won't shut up! Deal with that. So, in your opinion, how do you bypass Je trying to do that stuff?

 

[EJCC]

[MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION]

Note that I never told you to speak Fe, or to leave your Fi at the door. There's a way to compromise. The INFJs in this thread who've been willing to adapt, have been the ones who didn't get upset with the Fi-users, but instead tried to understand where they were coming from. Some INFPs and folks of other types have done the same thing, and have been having a reasonable conversation about it. That has been because these INFJs and INFPs and others have been focusing less on who wronged whom and hurt whose feelings, and more on what can be done to actually prevent that misunderstanding in the future. That's the adaptation I was referring to.

I see this whole thing as being similar to learning that your SO's love language is different from yours. You can't see how hard they're working to please you, and the reverse is true as well. But you can adapt to one another, as long as you learn each other's languages, accept the validity of their way of doing things, and let go of your resentment.

 

[PeaceBaby]

[MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION]

Note that I never told you to speak Fe, or to leave your Fi at the door. There's a way to compromise. The INFJs in this thread who've been willing to adapt, have been the ones who didn't get upset with the Fi-users, but instead tried to understand where they were coming from. Some INFPs and folks of other types have done the same thing, and have been having a reasonable conversation about it. That has been because these INFJs and INFPs and others have been focusing less on who wronged whom and hurt whose feelings, and more on what can be done to actually prevent that misunderstanding in the future. That's the adaptation I was referring to.

The adaptation of leaving one's emotions out of the equation?

 

[EJCC]

The adaptation of leaving one's emotions out of the equation?

And what is the proper reaction when Fe is trying to shut you up? Mine is to say, I won't shut up! Deal with that. So, in your opinion, how do you bypass Je trying to do that stuff?

Not leave out your emotions entirely, but tone them down, and not use them as a weapon. If the goal is to make the INFJ understand you, then lashing out with 500x more Fi is definitely not going to do the job. As for what you WOULD want to do, others have explained it much better in this thread than I could ever hope to.

 

[skylights]

I am enjoying reading about INFJ processing. It is fascinating.

It is true that learning not to use Fi as a weapon is huge in an FJ-FP relationship. It is hard because it is our natural defense. But learning to "give up", break it open and describe the landscape as a 3rd party observer is the best strategy I have found. It also helps the FJ to see your feelings outside the context of motive. It can feel like stifling ourselves, though, which is particularly hard for us because we feel like the world already asks us to stifle so much of our natural communication in everyday relations. However, I think it is important to understand the FJ still being willing to continue discoursing despite conflict as an acquiescence, them leaving their place of comfort. It requires more energy on their part to persist than it does on ours. And once there is trust on both ends, then there can be real listening and appreciation and freedom of understanding on both ends. It's like a Chinese finger trap... you have to give more up front than you feel like you should have to, but it's worth it in the end.

 

[EJCC]

I am enjoying reading about INFJ processing. It is fascinating.

Agreed! I love that this thread has become so productive.

It is true that learning not to use Fi as a weapon is huge in an FJ-FP relationship. It is hard because it is our natural defense and it is frightening to feel like we have no protection. But learning to break the feelingscape open and describe it like a 3rd party observer helps the FJ to see FP feelings outside the context of motive - it is somewhat magical to see how it removes the "fight" and turns it into discussion. It feels like giving up, but it's also nice because it requires way less energy than defending. Plus, I think it is important to understand the FJ still being willing to continue discoursing with you despite conflict as an acquiescence, them leaving their place of comfort. It requires more energy on their part to persist than it does on ours.

+1

 

[Ene]

I am enjoying reading about INFJ processing. It is fascinating.

It is true that learning not to use Fi as a weapon is huge in an FJ-FP relationship. It is hard because it is our natural defense and it is frightening to feel like we have no protection. But learning to break the feelingscape open and describe it like a 3rd party observer helps the FJ to see FP feelings outside the context of motive - it is somewhat magical to see how it removes the "fight" and turns it into discussion. It feels like giving up, but it's also nice because it requires way less energy than defending. Plus, I think it is important to understand the FJ still being willing to continue discoursing with you despite conflict as an acquiescence, them leaving their place of comfort. It requires more energy on their part to persist than it does on ours.

Wow, that is really insightful! I never even realized that Fi could be used as a defense, but it makes sense.
Thank you for helping me see. Also, [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION]your dedication to learning and understanding really impresses me.