[ESTP] A problem I can't solve ISTP or ESTP

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

You guys definitely have me leaning towards Estp. I just need a bit more information for me to make sense of it all. When I say i talk to cashier it doesnt mean every time. Ive read extrovert posses enthusiasm and high energy, something I cant say i relate to.

There's a lot of general bullshit stereotypes surrounding extraverts. I.e. they're all bubbly, shallow, chatty smiley all the time. That's just not true in many cases. I could see how ESTPs might have a tendency to appear calm and reserved much of the time. It has less to do with how socially outgoing you are then it does with the attitude (introverted vs extraverted) of your primary function.

If you are an ESTP then it means you are first and foremost a perceiver, gathering information via sensation. If you come off as detached, reserved, or calm, it's probably because you are in the process of using your secondary introverted thinking to make sense and order out of all the sensory stimuli you've taken in through your primary sensing function. That's a good thing--ESTPs in particular (and ExxPs in general) need to make good use of their introverted judgement or their primary perceiving function is more or less worthless.

ISTPs, on the other hand, are going to operate in the other order--that is, judge and order their thoughts first via their primary introverted judging, then seek out hands-on sensory stimuli to test and verify their subjective logic (Ti is primarily subjective, as opposed to Te, which is objective logic). The IxxP's introverted judging will be useless and aimless without the stimulation of auxiliary extraverted perceiving.

 

[infinite]

Hello there my fellow SP brothers and sisters, long time lurker here. Been reading about MBTI for a couple of years but still have issues when it comes to what I'm. Maybe its that whole not being happy with a conclusion thing. For a long time I thought I was an ISTP yet for some reason I can't help but see things that suggest ESTP. For one every time I hear my voice when my friend records footage I sound very extroverted. Even my INTJ friend who I met on the forum along time ago was surprised by my voice. Didn't sound as monotone as he expected. I read up on the inferior functions of ISTP and ESTP. Its very hard for me to determine if I experience inferior Ni or Fe during stress. Still trying to figure out if I'm a dominant Ti or Se user

Hehh I used to have that problem myself. I went with ISTP in MBTI and SLE/ESTp in socionics (Ti subtype though). Seems to work well enough so far... I just can't relate to the MBTI ESTP stereotypes as much. ESTp in socionics is subtly different... I relate more to that one Well I didn't decide this based on stereotypes of course. It's just what jumps out the most when looking at this issue. But yeah, I did examine functions as well. Inferior Fe causes me more problems than inferior Ni though I've certainly experienced something like the latter too.

How are your Fe and Ni? Write a bit more about yourself during stress? Do you ever have Fe issues? Or just Ni? (What you mentioned below about becoming more introverted and worry about what might happen sounds like inferior Ni more than inferior Fe)

Things that make me consider ESTP

Hmm you sound really ESTP from this list but why did you say later in this thread that you are not a high energy and/or enthusiastic type? Stuff you list here under ESTP label sounds like you've got quite some energy. Is that not so then? Why do you think it's not so?

Why I thought you came off as someone with high energy is the stuff you said about being impatient and chatting with friends everyday. Btw, I'm also very impatient in the fashion you described and even more than that and I do like to msg friends everyday but I'm perfectly capable of going without talking to friends for weeks. I don't really notice much missing when I go without speaking to people. But sometimes I do feel like it's missing a bit, and then it feels like a bit.. like having a too low energy state if that makes sense. Because, msg'ing people - not just friends, really anyone, not choosy - does boost that energy. Do you relate to that? How do you feel if you skip a day of talking to friends/people? Do you feel energized when texting them to converse etc?

When you said you don't self reflect a lot, do you mean you don't analyse yourself or you just in general don't reflect about much stuff? I do like to think about my goals in a similar fashion to you. Otoh I do reflect on some other things too. It's usually things that are related to my goals, things that are necessary to understand to get my goals, but I'm actually analysing those things a bit on the side too. Sometimes I get a bit further in "introverted land" and just think about math logic or something like that without a concrete goal. This is in short bursts though.. not really a heavy daily activity. Anyway, overall it seems like you analyse on your own less than me, right? I can also ask other people for information/opinions but just as often I don't do that. I may just read up on the topic and think about it on my own or observe something and think about it on my own.

The blueprint thingie, I do have that myself. It can simplify analysis. I like it. Do like to ask the right questions to complete a logical analysis of a problem or of some other topic but I prefer to not have to verbalize these questions to someone else. I prefer being able to just read up on the subject and/or observe/experiment myself. All questions that would ever need to come up will be answered through that process by achieving a complete coverage of the logic, leaving no holes in it; without bothering to actually make up questions and then convey them to other people and then wait for the answer and then ask another question generated by that answer and so on and so on... until the logic is completely drawn up/out.

As for your language use, heh.. I'm also not sophisticated with it by default. Not sure if this is just a S/N difference though. I can easily call up a larger vocabulary when I'm going to write about something more complex. If I'm writing a fictional story then the words flow easily. If I write about analysis heavy technical stuff, it's a bit more effort to get all the right words but I like trying to find them. If it's not a paper for e.g. university class, I might just ditch the effort sometimes and simply use basic words like "thing" in place of a sophisticated noun lol.

The liking to look nice and not being great at self-analysis is just a SP (and STP for the latter) thing IMO. I've actually improved at the latter through a Ti understanding of things.

ISTP elements

I relate Scarily well

Except this thing about being "own worst critic". Gut feelings also no problem. Maybe that's an enneagram thing though.

Random facts that may help-
Even when I'm quiet I'm always in tune with my surroundings. Such as people talking, or whats on the television.

Uhh you're more ESTP than I am. If nothing interesting is going on - and I am picky as hell - I'll retreat, into thoughts or whatever. Thinking about goals, doing some analysis, think up story, reading nice easy fiction or even reading technical non-fiction, etc...

I have conversations with Cashiers if they seem friendly or attractive

Do you initiate those? I wouldn't. If you do, you sound more ESTP again...

When I'm depress I do think of terrible outcomes for myself and I also have a hard time controlling my emotions. I lock myself up in my room and cry. More introverted and a loner than I normally am.

Sounds like an extraverted person saying "more introverted"...

ESTP. Your writing style.

"Have a more dark personality compare to light and warm." According to the socionics model that I use (which nobody else in this forum uses, sorry - everything I say will make no sense to most of the people here), you will tend to express negative emotions (-Fe), which is in your 4th function. An ISTP is the opposite - they have +Fe as part of their 4th function, and they will tend to express happy-smiley feelings by default, and will suppress any expressions of darkness and negative emotions. Both ISTJs and ESTPs (Beta Quadra) will tend to express negative emotions and gloominess and have a different pattern of emotional expression than ISTPs and ESTJs do (Delta Quadra).

"my fellow SP brothers and sisters" - This is -Se, global extraverted sensing. Everyone together, everyone brothers and sisters, the individual people are not emphasized, the whole group is emphasized, all people. An ISTP uses +Se, local extraverted sensing - individual people and individual objects are unique, people are not seen as a group, group isn't emphasized, individual desires are emphasized instead of the group needs and group desires.

Interesting, I relate to -Fe It just feels more intense to me than +Fe and I like intensity... But, how do I decide if I see people as a group or not? My individual desires are definitely more important than the group's desires.

I can't picture ISTPs having many conversations with cashiers unless they are regulars at a particular store, although it happens. In my case, I'm not usually the one to initiate conversation unless I am feeling particularly extraverted that day; sometimes female cashiers flirt with me, which always comes as a surprise, but I will gladly firt back and can't say I don't mind the attention. Your love of food could also indicate enneatype 7, although I love food too and I'm a 5.

Heh heh, I'm a regular at a small store nearby and I still have a hard time bothering to even say "hi" consistently when I enter. Let alone entire convos, what?

Though if they initiated the convo, I would readily engage. Sometimes a bit of spontaneous interaction spices things up, makes me feel higher energy etc. I like it.

ISTPs will feign the shit out of Fe, to the point that they can occasionally be mistaken for feelers by novice typologists.

Really? I can smile nicely, sure, but I'm really *not* good at consistent Fe use.

Would you say your hot and cold? What makes you a dominant Ti over Se?

You weren't asking me but maybe it helps I'm cold and calm by default. Hot when angry or have other intense negative emotion Hot when I'm into a physically really intense activity.

Are you hot or cold yourself?

I decided to go for ISTP because I don't give enough attention to Se stuff to be ESTP in the MBTI sense and I have a special relationship with Ti hehehe .

Also I will admit I sometimes feel like I should work on having more attention on Se. It can pay off sometimes.. and then sometimes I dunno, I just don't care. There's pages online that talk about how ISTP needs to get more Se to extend attention etc.. I relate to that. The ESTP on the other hand gets the advice that they should rein in the Se by using more Ti, be more selective about shit, think more about consequences, etc. ESTP = crazy party hard type, ISTP = too introverted almost autistic with narrow attention

Now, I will also admit that I can still be convinced that I was wrong going for ISTP over ESTP. Thus my close interest in your thread lol Note I don't really believe in stereotypes but they're still annoying, especially at the times when I considered ESTP. No I don't actually fit ISTP stereotypes much better but overall I can relate a bit more.

There's a lot of general bullshit stereotypes surrounding extraverts. I.e. they're all bubbly, shallow, chatty smiley all the time. That's just not true in many cases. I could see how ESTPs might have a tendency to appear calm and reserved much of the time. It has less to do with how socially outgoing you are then it does with the attitude (introverted vs extraverted) of your primary function.

If you are an ESTP then it means you are first and foremost a perceiver, gathering information via sensation. If you come off as detached, reserved, or calm, it's probably because you are in the process of using your secondary introverted thinking to make sense and order out of all the sensory stimuli you've taken in through your primary sensing function. That's a good thing--ESTPs in particular (and ExxPs in general) need to make good use of their introverted judgement or their primary perceiving function is more or less worthless.

ISTPs, on the other hand, are going to operate in the other order--that is, judge and order their thoughts first via their primary introverted judging, then seek out hands-on sensory stimuli to test and verify their subjective logic (Ti is primarily subjective, as opposed to Te, which is objective logic). The IxxP's introverted judging will be useless and aimless without the stimulation of auxiliary extraverted perceiving.

That's interesting. I agree that the stereotypes are all bullshit. What you say about looking reserved, or calm is pretty strange to me though. When I look like that, it's often not due to explicit analysing of whatever. It can just be a readiness when not actually doing anything, or when actually doing stuff it's just me being not really emotional about the task. It's just me being focused instead. It's possible that I don't notice myself making sense of shit while in the middle of action, though.

The way you describe ESTP vs ISTP here, I'm split between the two Thanks anyway, nice summary.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Really? I can smile nicely, sure, but I'm really *not* good at consistent Fe use.

I don't use it consistently. I recognize its presence and influence in my psyche. I'd say that everyone who has a job and interacts with society on a daily basis is required to use it at least part of the time, whether it is genuine usage by a strong Fe dom or Fe aux or by someone with weak Fe feigning its usage.

That's interesting. I agree that the stereotypes are all bullshit. What you say about looking reserved, or calm is pretty strange to me though. When I look like that, it's often not due to explicit analysing of whatever. It can just be a readiness when not actually doing anything, or when actually doing stuff it's just me being not really emotional about the task. It's just me being focused instead. It's possible that I don't notice myself making sense of shit while in the middle of action, though.

The way you describe ESTP vs ISTP here, I'm split between the two Thanks anyway, nice summary.

You've got to remember that I'm no expert on this stuff and am probably talking out of my ass at least half the time

 

[ZombieKiller]

Hehh I used to have that problem myself. I went with ISTP in MBTI and SLE/ESTp in socionics (Ti subtype though). Seems to work well enough so far... I just can't relate to the MBTI ESTP stereotypes as much. ESTp in socionics is subtly different... I relate more to that one Well I didn't decide this based on stereotypes of course. It's just what jumps out the most when looking at this issue. But yeah, I did examine functions as well. Inferior Fe causes me more problems than inferior Ni though I've certainly experienced something like the latter too.

How are your Fe and Ni? Write a bit more about yourself during stress? Do you ever have Fe issues? Or just Ni? (What you mentioned below about becoming more introverted and worry about what might happen sounds like inferior Ni more than inferior Fe)

I appreciate your time to write and ask me specific questions. Judging from your post you come off as more of a Ti Dominant. When I'm stress I am more distance than usual, which does not mean Im generally not distance. I'm more distance more quiet, I go to my room and try to focus on solve the issue that is causing me harm. I may only ask my closest friends who their advice and feedback. During these times I may be more negative


Hmm you sound really ESTP from this list but why did you say later in this thread that you are not a high energy and/or enthusiastic type? Stuff you list here under ESTP label sounds like you've got quite some energy. Is that not so then? Why do you think it's not so?
Because I'm not normally high energy and lack enthusiasm. I don't radiate energy or happiness like many extroverts I observe. That positive upbeat energy.

Why I thought you came off as someone with high energy is the stuff you said about being impatient and chatting with friends everyday. Btw, I'm also very impatient in the fashion you described and even more than that and I do like to msg friends everyday but I'm perfectly capable of going without talking to friends for weeks. I don't really notice much missing when I go without speaking to people. But sometimes I do feel like it's missing a bit, and then it feels like a bit.. like having a too low energy state if that makes sense. Because, msg'ing people - not just friends, really anyone, not choosy - does boost that energy. Do you relate to that? How do you feel if you skip a day of talking to friends/people? Do you feel energized when texting them to converse etc?
I wouldn't say I'm impatient all the time, just when it comes to things I want. I can't say I relate unless an interesting conversation or topic comes up that excites me. I'm not sure how I would feel if I skip a day of non communication because I'm message every single day.

When you said you don't self reflect a lot, do you mean you don't analyse yourself or you just in general don't reflect about much stuff? I do like to think about my goals in a similar fashion to you. Otoh I do reflect on some other things too. It's usually things that are related to my goals, things that are necessary to understand to get my goals, but I'm actually analysing those things a bit on the side too. Sometimes I get a bit further in "introverted land" and just think about math logic or something like that without a concrete goal. This is in short bursts though.. not really a heavy daily activity. Anyway, overall it seems like you analyse on your own less than me, right? I can also ask other people for information/opinions but just as often I don't do that. I may just read up on the topic and think about it on my own or observe something and think about it on my own.
I do the same thing you do except up until you mention thinking about math for no reason. I think about the present and the future. When I think about math its for calculations for work, or managing my bills expenses.

The blueprint thingie, I do have that myself. It can simplify analysis. I like it. Do like to ask the right questions to complete a logical analysis of a problem or of some other topic but I prefer to not have to verbalize these questions to someone else. I prefer being able to just read up on the subject and/or observe/experiment myself. All questions that would ever need to come up will be answered through that process by achieving a complete coverage of the logic, leaving no holes in it; without bothering to actually make up questions and then convey them to other people and then wait for the answer and then ask another question generated by that answer and so on and so on... until the logic is completely drawn up/out.
Very interesting, no I don't think in terms of blue prints. But I do keep asking questions to figure out a solution. Its very interesting how you break down your thought process. I don't believe I could of articulated something like that even tho its similar to how I solve things. Another point towards me being an ESTP and you an ISTP,

As for your language use, heh.. I'm also not sophisticated with it by default. Not sure if this is just a S/N difference though. I can easily call up a larger vocabulary when I'm going to write about something more complex. If I'm writing a fictional story then the words flow easily. If I write about analysis heavy technical stuff, it's a bit more effort to get all the right words but I like trying to find them. If it's not a paper for e.g. university class, I might just ditch the effort sometimes and simply use basic words like "thing" in place of a sophisticated noun lol.
I like the rule of keeping it simple. However most of my school life was spent moving or transferring to new schools so I miss out on improving such form of writing or speech. There are quiet a few words I used offline that I can't even spell.

The liking to look nice and not being great at self-analysis is just a SP (and STP for the latter) thing IMO. I've actually improved at the latter through a Ti understanding of things.
Good, I believe your appearance can reflect who you are to some degree. Whether we like it or not society as a whole judges you on how you look and make false assumptions. Plus if you're the wrong color it can be worst.



I relate Scarily well

Except this thing about being "own worst critic". Gut feelings also no problem. Maybe that's an enneagram thing though.

I'm not sure, all I know is I'm very very hard on myself. I'm someone of strong convictions and set the bar very high for myself. The gut feeling thing is hard for me to trust because I lack evidence or understanding why that feeling is accurate. However the more I tap into my gut feeling the better life has gotten.



Uhh you're more ESTP than I am. If nothing interesting is going on - and I am picky as hell - I'll retreat, into thoughts or whatever. Thinking about goals, doing some analysis, think up story, reading nice easy fiction or even reading technical non-fiction, etc...
For me I can't completely zone out, I can get into the zone but I'm fully aware of things circling my personal space. For the most part but not always. I can be so focus that someone can throw a paper ball and hit me. My focus gets so intense minutes and hours can go by



Do you initiate those? I wouldn't. If you do, you sound more ESTP again...
It depends, don't get the impression I talk to every cashier. Im friendly with females or most cashiers because I now how terrible it is to be underpaid and work in shitty retail/sales.



Sounds like an extraverted person saying "more introverted"...
To my friends I'm more of a loner or different even among the group. To explain what I mean is imagine a distant and reserve person being even more quiet and reserve. Not that I all of sudden become introverted.




Interesting, I relate to -Fe It just feels more intense to me than +Fe and I like intensity... But, how do I decide if I see people as a group or not? My individual desires are definitely more important than the group's desires.




Heh heh, I'm a regular at a small store nearby and I still have a hard time bothering to even say "hi" consistently when I enter. Let alone entire convos, what?

Though if they initiated the convo, I would readily engage. Sometimes a bit of spontaneous interaction spices things up, makes me feel higher energy etc. I like it.




Really? I can smile nicely, sure, but I'm really *not* good at consistent Fe use.





You weren't asking me but maybe it helps I'm cold and calm by default. Hot when angry or have other intense negative emotion Hot when I'm into a physically really intense activity.

Are you hot or cold yourself?

I decided to go for ISTP because I don't give enough attention to Se stuff to be ESTP in the MBTI sense and I have a special relationship with Ti hehehe .

Also I will admit I sometimes feel like I should work on having more attention on Se. It can pay off sometimes.. and then sometimes I dunno, I just don't care. There's pages online that talk about how ISTP needs to get more Se to extend attention etc.. I relate to that. The ESTP on the other hand gets the advice that they should rein in the Se by using more Ti, be more selective about shit, think more about consequences, etc. ESTP = crazy party hard type, ISTP = too introverted almost autistic with narrow attention

Now, I will also admit that I can still be convinced that I was wrong going for ISTP over ESTP. Thus my close interest in your thread lol Note I don't really believe in stereotypes but they're still annoying, especially at the times when I considered ESTP. No I don't actually fit ISTP stereotypes much better but overall I can relate a bit more.
I'm glad you answer even if I wasn't directly asking you.This question for more so for everyone. How you describe your levels of energy is just like mine. My facial expressions consist of stoneface, grin,laughing and pissed off and sad. Regardless of type one needs to become more well rounded and balance. I promise you it can only improve your life and outlook. I always strive for self improvement and typology has help me learn and grow.



That's interesting. I agree that the stereotypes are all bullshit. What you say about looking reserved, or calm is pretty strange to me though. When I look like that, it's often not due to explicit analysing of whatever. It can just be a readiness when not actually doing anything, or when actually doing stuff it's just me being not really emotional about the task. It's just me being focused instead. It's possible that I don't notice myself making sense of shit while in the middle of action, though.

The way you describe ESTP vs ISTP here, I'm split between the two Thanks anyway, nice summary.

I replied in bold. One more thing I'm more laid-back most of the time, but when its time to focus on my craft my energy picks up.

 

[infinite]

I don't use it consistently. I recognize its presence and influence in my psyche. I'd say that everyone who has a job and interacts with society on a daily basis is required to use it at least part of the time, whether it is genuine usage by a strong Fe dom or Fe aux or by someone with weak Fe feigning its usage.

You've got to remember that I'm no expert on this stuff and am probably talking out of my ass at least half the time

Yeah don't worry

Curious; when did you start recognizing Fe (presence, influence of it etc)? At what age? Did you ever have a period in your life (as a kid) when you were completely unaware?

I replied in bold.

Interesting you see me as Ti-dom Is that because of the math thingie?

One more thing I'm more laid-back most of the time, but when its time to focus on my craft my energy picks up.

Uhmm, that can be true for both STPs. I'm like this myself. The part where you talked about distance, I relate to that too. You could still be ESTP more than me, though

The upbeat blahblah stuff, are you never like that? I can actually be, when in the mood. But not my default, no.

You were saying that you don't get energy from simply interacting, only when it's some interesting convo? I do get energy from interesting convos myself but it's a different kind of energy, it's a bit more.. mental energy. When it's just about interaction itself with someone in a physical sense, that's not this kind of mental energy. It might be my enneagram type but the non-mental version of the energy feels better for me in a sense, it's more grounded.

As for me being able to articulate my thought processes, it's just a result of observation over time. That fact that I've spent time on observing them doesn't have to be type related. It would help you too, IMO, if you did that. Do you relate to wanting to have the complete picture in a logical sense?

What do you call a "gut feeling"? I get them in specific topics only. For example, math related tasks and navigation (in physical space). I trust them there as they work well. I do prefer to be able to find or recall supporting data or flesh out the logical steps. I'm usually able to do this and I do spend the time on doing so, just because I feel better that way. I have had "hunches" in other life areas that were totally irrational and I always know that logically. And they didn't turn out to be correct, in about 99% of the time. Luckily these irrational flashes of gut feeling are relatively rare. I certainly don't care to trust those even if 1% of the time they happen to work out.

The zoning out thing, I don't completely zone out either. I always stay aware of space, where I am, stuff like that. But I'm not always following what is happening, I mean I won't follow everything closely if I'm bored with the situation.

Intense focus, well, I got that too.. ESTPs are often described as having short span of attention. I don't think it's got to be 100% type related though.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Yeah don't worry

Curious; when did you start recognizing Fe (presence, influence of it etc)? At what age? Did you ever have a period in your life (as a kid) when you were completely unaware?

I wasn't too familiar with cognitive function theory in my early to mid twenties, but looking back , I'd say that's when it probably began to influence me. I wonder if knowing about Jungian typology back then might've helped me get through that stage easier.

 

[infinite]

I wasn't too familiar with cognitive function theory in my early to mid twenties, but looking back , I'd say that's when it probably began to influence me. I wonder if knowing about Jungian typology back then might've helped me get through that stage easier.

But were you totally unaware of Fe, positive or negative, before your early twenties?

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

But were you totally unaware of Fe, positive or negative, before your early twenties?

I don't know. Maybe earlier, like in my mid to late teens. I was rather oblivious to other people's feelings as a kid, so it usually came as a surprise to me when something I said or did hurt someone's feelings. As a young kid, especially, I was very blunt and called things exactly as I saw them, not realizing at the time that doing so wasn't always socially acceptable. It was often difficult as kid to be yelled at or punished when I wasn't intentionally being naughty; I was just being observant about the world around me, oh oops, better be careful with that, some people get all bent out of shape about being told THE OBVIOUS.

Also, I remember when my sister was driving my car and got into an accident. It turned out she was fine so I asked, "how is the car?" Apparently, that's a cold and insensitive thing to do, even if I JUST saw my sister and it was pretty obvious she wasn't hurt too badly.

You know, honestly, I don't know if I'll ever have a true grasp on Fe. I still find myself occasionally asking my wife, "did I say something wrong?" or "was I acting like a tool at that party?" Of course I've read Ti dominates will be very concerned with what others think of them. Would you say this is true in your case, [MENTION=21718]infinite[/MENTION] and [MENTION=10569]ZombieKiller[/MENTION]?

Is it messed up we're talking about me so much in Zombie Killer's thread? Perhaps we should move this discussion to another thread.

 

[ZombieKiller]

Nope not at all. Your experience is very helpful to illustrate what makes an Istp think.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I just found this thread about recognizing the inferior in ISTPs (and INTPs) at personalitycafe: [ISTP] Recognizing the Inferior Function in ISTP

I related to a lot of it, especially the part concerning the INTP father first asking his son how bad his bike was damaged after an accident.

Then I found this thread about how inferior Ni affects ESTPs: [ESTP] What is inferior Ni like?

Lately I've been wondering if my dad wasn't initially mistyped (I'd thought he was ESTJ or ESFJ) and is in fact ESTP. He can be ridiculously negative and pessimistic about the future.

 

[infinite]

I don't know. Maybe earlier, like in my mid to late teens. I was rather oblivious to other people's feelings as a kid, so it usually came as a surprise to me when something I said or did hurt someone's feelings. As a young kid, especially, I was very blunt and called things exactly as I saw them, not realizing at the time that doing so wasn't always socially acceptable. It was often difficult as kid to be yelled at or punished when I wasn't intentionally being naughty; I was just being observant about the world around me, oh oops, better be careful with that, some people get all bent out of shape about being told THE OBVIOUS.

Also, I remember when my sister was driving my car and got into an accident. It turned out she was fine so I asked, "how is the car?" Apparently, that's a cold and insensitive thing to do, even if I JUST saw my sister and it was pretty obvious she wasn't hurt too badly.

You know, honestly, I don't know if I'll ever have a true grasp on Fe. I still find myself occasionally asking my wife, "did I say something wrong?" or "was I acting like a tool at that party?" Of course I've read Ti dominates will be very concerned with what others think of them. Would you say this is true in your case, [MENTION=21718]infinite[/MENTION] and [MENTION=10569]ZombieKiller[/MENTION]?

Interesting. I can't say I relate to all of it. I'm going to try and respond to points in one go, sorry if it seems randomly ordered

My Fe issues as a kid were usually due to my behaviour, mainly not taking other people into account when I wanted something; or if I did take them into account, I still expected people to do some things for me that I thought was pretty reasonable (logically reasonable too). Also because of the insensitive jokes I made (verbal or physical jokes). Sometimes physical fights as well. Overall I was completely unaware of Fe things. It would not at all register or register only unconsciously 99% of the time if people had a problem with my stuff, how people viewed me, etc. I recall a case where it was conscious temporarily but meh.. I forgot that fast though I'm pretty sure it still affected me unconsciously. Basically, I would be pretty hostile in my attitude to most other kids and I saw that as natural. Idk but some of this might be enneagram too...

The car example, I suppose people ask about feelings when they ask "how are you" when you are physically unhurt. I might not explicitly ask how the person is but I would probably make some facial expression half consciously.

I don't really ask others if my behaviour was/is okay.. I can obsess over it a bit at times but I don't usually ask others about it. So it usually stays unresolved. Yes, I can sometimes get worried about how others see me but I'm usually not thinking of this and I'm definitely better off not worrying about this. I feel more like myself that way.

Is it messed up we're talking about me so much in Zombie Killer's thread? Perhaps we should move this discussion to another thread.

You've just displayed some Fe here

I just found this thread about recognizing the inferior in ISTPs (and INTPs) at personalitycafe: [ISTP] Recognizing the Inferior Function in ISTP

I related to a lot of it, especially the part concerning the INTP father first asking his son how bad his bike was damaged after an accident.

Then I found this thread about how inferior Ni affects ESTPs: [ESTP] What is inferior Ni like?

Lately I've been wondering if my dad wasn't initially mistyped (I'd thought he was ESTJ or ESFJ) and is in fact ESTP. He can be ridiculously negative and pessimistic about the future.

Nice threads. Unfortunately, I relate to both inferior Ni and inferior Fe.

Though, if ESTP means I must be "ridiculously negative and pessimistic about the future" then I'm no ESTP I usually don't think a lot about the future. Or if I do think something negative, I rarely express it.

Anyway, the difference for me is that the inferior Fe thingies are more common and I'm pretty used to it so it's no big deal I guess . Well it's annoying and shit, sure. The inferior Ni thingies are much harder to deal with but that stuff happened only like a couple of times in my life. It was extremely bad until I learned to gain some control over it. Otherwise, I certainly don't relate to habitually fucking up interpretation of shit through negative Ni. Well, or maybe I do get little irrational worries about the future more regularly than that but it's a lot more vague than the examples given and I have an outlet for such stress that works fine and so I don't even notice most of the time. (This isn't the same as the other control thingie that I talked about above. The control over the bigger Ni related issues is more volatile.) The Fe problems I certainly notice much more and I don't have any nice method for fixing the Fe-related stress. Sorry if this didn't make much sense, I'm not being very concrete here I know.

Overall, the small Ni things are easily controlled. The big ones are not easily controlled, achieving control over it seemed entirely hopeless sometimes & usually made worse by Fe acting up as well. The Fe things - without Ni - are not really controlled, at all. I still conclude ISTP from this but...

 

[infinite]

Nope not at all. Your experience is very helpful to illustrate what makes an Istp think.

I'm curious if you relate to what I've just said about inferior functions.

Also, mind responding to this post of mine?

I wanted to add to that post, if your answer is yes to "do you relate to wanting to have the complete picture in a logical sense" then I would also ask, how strong is that desire to have it? Would you ditch it - the desire for the understanding - for some other goals? What kind of goals, if so?

 

[infinite]

Then I found this thread about how inferior Ni affects ESTPs: [ESTP] What is inferior Ni like?

Oh and about that thread... [MENTION=10569]ZombieKiller[/MENTION] I'm curious to see how well you relate to the inf Ni examples given in that thread.


Also, I'm going to quote something relevant:

"Just looking at how much trouble some ENFJs and ESFJs have with their inferior Ti compared to my tertiary Ti but how much less trouble they have with Se I would say there is a pretty big difference between tertiary and inferior. To me it looks like tertiary works in conjunction with the dominant function to refine its output, while inferior function simply gets squished by the dominant one so to say."

Well, in my case Ni can certainly work in conjunction with Ti in this fashion though I can't say it's very easy to do, it's quite the mental work but rewarding. I don't have to first find the right mood to get to work with them. Fe - surprise surprise! - can also work in conjunction with Se, in certain situations, it's not hard at all but it's pretty hard to be in the mood for it in the first place. Once the situation/mood is right, it can work okay temporarily. Also.. Fe gets squished easily by Ti and so can Ni by Se.

So I dunno how it is for you guys but that post, while sounding pretty logical, didn't clarify it at all for me lol

Possibly an outside observer would have more insight into which function (Fe vs Ni) I'm using *less* naturally, less refined, or whatever (and same for Ti/Se, but that I guess is hard to tell online)

 

[ZombieKiller]

I haven't replied because the keyboard on my tablet is terrible for long messages. Don't want to type up long responses via phone either. Because the length of my messages or whatever may be falsely gauge as something it's not by someone.

Will post a response later when I can connect my keyboard.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Interesting. I can't say I relate to all of it. I'm going to try and respond to points in one go, sorry if it seems randomly ordered

My Fe issues as a kid were usually due to my behaviour, mainly not taking other people into account when I wanted something; or if I did take them into account, I still expected people to do some things for me that I thought was pretty reasonable (logically reasonable too). Also because of the insensitive jokes I made (verbal or physical jokes). Sometimes physical fights as well. Overall I was completely unaware of Fe things. It would not at all register or register only unconsciously 99% of the time if people had a problem with my stuff, how people viewed me, etc. I recall a case where it was conscious temporarily but meh.. I forgot that fast though I'm pretty sure it still affected me unconsciously. Basically, I would be pretty hostile in my attitude to most other kids and I saw that as natural. Idk but some of this might be enneagram too...

The car example, I suppose people ask about feelings when they ask "how are you" when you are physically unhurt. I might not explicitly ask how the person is but I would probably make some facial expression half consciously.

I don't really ask others if my behaviour was/is okay.. I can obsess over it a bit at times but I don't usually ask others about it. So it usually stays unresolved. Yes, I can sometimes get worried about how others see me but I'm usually not thinking of this and I'm definitely better off not worrying about this. I feel more like myself that way.




You've just displayed some Fe here




Nice threads. Unfortunately, I relate to both inferior Ni and inferior Fe.

Though, if ESTP means I must be "ridiculously negative and pessimistic about the future" then I'm no ESTP I usually don't think a lot about the future. Or if I do think something negative, I rarely express it.

Anyway, the difference for me is that the inferior Fe thingies are more common and I'm pretty used to it so it's no big deal I guess . Well it's annoying and shit, sure. The inferior Ni thingies are much harder to deal with but that stuff happened only like a couple of times in my life. It was extremely bad until I learned to gain some control over it. Otherwise, I certainly don't relate to habitually fucking up interpretation of shit through negative Ni. Well, or maybe I do get little irrational worries about the future more regularly than that but it's a lot more vague than the examples given and I have an outlet for such stress that works fine and so I don't even notice most of the time. (This isn't the same as the other control thingie that I talked about above. The control over the bigger Ni related issues is more volatile.) The Fe problems I certainly notice much more and I don't have any nice method for fixing the Fe-related stress. Sorry if this didn't make much sense, I'm not being very concrete here I know.

Overall, the small Ni things are easily controlled. The big ones are not easily controlled, achieving control over it seemed entirely hopeless sometimes & usually made worse by Fe acting up as well. The Fe things - without Ni - are not really controlled, at all. I still conclude ISTP from this but...

You seem more ISTP to me but I am no expert

 

[infinite]

I haven't replied because the keyboard on my tablet is terrible for long messages. Don't want to type up long responses via phone either. Because the length of my messages or whatever may be falsely gauge as something it's not by someone.

Will post a response later when I can connect my keyboard.

OK no worries

You seem more ISTP to me but I am no expert

Yeah & thanks. Got a question about that inferior function topic... Do you ever have Ni issues as ISTP? If yes, what are they like?

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

OK no worries




Yeah & thanks. Got a question about that inferior function topic... Do you ever have Ni issues as ISTP? If yes, what are they like?

I think it affects me when I am particularly stressed or worn down. Images and thoughts of future disasters (personal) will cycle through my head repeatedly. I will become more paranoid and read negative signs in people's behavior, actions, etc, which aren't necessarily accurate. Lenore Thomson writes that ISTPs who are subject to negative influence of Ni will become obsessed with conspiracy theories--this might be true to a certain extent, although in my case, it might not be widespread conspiracy theories regarding the gov't or aliens so much as falsely believing people in my life or at work are conspiring against myself or others.

 

[ZombieKiller]

Yeah don't worry

Curious; when did you start recognizing Fe (presence, influence of it etc)? At what age? Did you ever have a period in your life (as a kid) when you were completely unaware?

For me when I was younger I do recall being misunderstood by feelers often.


Interesting you see me as Ti-dom Is that because of the math thingie?

Yes but that's not the only reason. How you were able to break down your thought process so clearly. At least my impression is you know your internal workings and the odds and end quite well


Uhmm, that can be true for both STPs. I'm like this myself. The part where you talked about distance, I relate to that too. You could still be ESTP more than me, though

The upbeat blahblah stuff, are you never like that? I can actually be, when in the mood. But not my default, no.
Not really, unless I am starting a relationship with a special female.

You were saying that you don't get energy from simply interacting, only when it's some interesting convo? I do get energy from interesting convos myself but it's a different kind of energy, it's a bit more.. mental energy. When it's just about interaction itself with someone in a physical sense, that's not this kind of mental energy. It might be my enneagram type but the non-mental version of the energy feels better for me in a sense, it's more grounded.

As for me being able to articulate my thought processes, it's just a result of observation over time. That fact that I've spent time on observing them doesn't have to be type related. It would help you too, IMO, if you did that. Do you relate to wanting to have the complete picture in a logical sense?
I'm not sure if I can explain this more clearer but as a result of my lust for self improvement I do want a complete picture. But I'm starting to notice most of my focus is externally oppose to internally. Which suggest extroversion.

What do you call a "gut feeling"? I get them in specific topics only. For example, math related tasks and navigation (in physical space). I trust them there as they work well. I do prefer to be able to find or recall supporting data or flesh out the logical steps. I'm usually able to do this and I do spend the time on doing so, just because I feel better that way. I have had "hunches" in other life areas that were totally irrational and I always know that logically. And they didn't turn out to be correct, in about 99% of the time. Luckily these irrational flashes of gut feeling are relatively rare. I certainly don't care to trust those even if 1% of the time they happen to work out.
Gut feelings for me, is an irrational voice or feeling that point me towards a direction or choice. For example when I was unemployed I turn down a job because something was telling me it would be a bad fit. That I wouldn't last long, it was a telemarketer sales job. I hate ripping people off and would not make a good sales person in this sense. I can only sell something I would buy or support as a good product.
Another example is when buying an item like say shoes. I spent 30 minutes trying to decide which clearance item to buy within my budget. What I ended up picking was the one that my gut initially told me to get, however I didn't listen. I can recall many many times where my gut was right but since I couldn't back up this logic I dismissed it.

The zoning out thing, I don't completely zone out either. I always stay aware of space, where I am, stuff like that. But I'm not always following what is happening, I mean I won't follow everything closely if I'm bored with the situation.

Intense focus, well, I got that too.. ESTPs are often described as having short span of attention. I don't think it's got to be 100% type related though.

Perhaps not all but I've notice many extroverts having short attention spans and being impatient.

 

[ZombieKiller]

I don't know. Maybe earlier, like in my mid to late teens. I was rather oblivious to other people's feelings as a kid, so it usually came as a surprise to me when something I said or did hurt someone's feelings. As a young kid, especially, I was very blunt and called things exactly as I saw them, not realizing at the time that doing so wasn't always socially acceptable. It was often difficult as kid to be yelled at or punished when I wasn't intentionally being naughty; I was just being observant about the world around me, oh oops, better be careful with that, some people get all bent out of shape about being told THE OBVIOUS.

Also, I remember when my sister was driving my car and got into an accident. It turned out she was fine so I asked, "how is the car?" Apparently, that's a cold and insensitive thing to do, even if I JUST saw my sister and it was pretty obvious she wasn't hurt too badly.

You know, honestly, I don't know if I'll ever have a true grasp on Fe. I still find myself occasionally asking my wife, "did I say something wrong?" or "was I acting like a tool at that party?" Of course I've read Ti dominates will be very concerned with what others think of them. Would you say this is true in your case, [MENTION=21718]infinite[/MENTION] and [MENTION=10569]ZombieKiller[/MENTION]?
I can kind of relate. For me I've always been bad at knowing when someone is attracted to me. Being concern with what others think, it really depends on what. Being number one in my field yes that is a major concern. Caring that people don't like me, not so much
Is it messed up we're talking about me so much in Zombie Killer's thread? Perhaps we should move this discussion to another thread.

I just found this thread about recognizing the inferior in ISTPs (and INTPs) at personalitycafe: [ISTP] Recognizing the Inferior Function in ISTP

I related to a lot of it, especially the part concerning the INTP father first asking his son how bad his bike was damaged after an accident.

Then I found this thread about how inferior Ni affects ESTPs: [ESTP] What is inferior Ni like?

Lately I've been wondering if my dad wasn't initially mistyped (I'd thought he was ESTJ or ESFJ) and is in fact ESTP. He can be ridiculously negative and pessimistic about the future.

I read that thread and I'm still not sure which is my inferior.

 

[ZombieKiller]

I'm curious if you relate to what I've just said about inferior functions.

Also, mind responding to this post of mine?

I wanted to add to that post, if your answer is yes to "do you relate to wanting to have the complete picture in a logical sense" then I would also ask, how strong is that desire to have it? Would you ditch it - the desire for the understanding - for some other goals? What kind of goals, if so?

Very good question, hmm....... I don't have to understand everything tho I have quiet the curiosity. I've learn in life some things can't be fully understood or broken down. I'm a learner and always strive to learn but I only care about learning things relevant to my interest or goals. For example I learn some really interesting info about air planes but I didn't specially seek out this information. It was presented and I asked and learn.

Here is a interesting question for you guys and I may have asked this in one of my replies. Where is most of your energy directed, internally or externally? I asked my friends and I also had a suspicion that my focus is external. I seldom have internal struggles outside of depression or hardship.