The PoLR Thread

[Alea_iacta_est]

My understanding is that Lead - Hero, Creative - Good Parent, Role - Child, Vulnerable - Anima, Suggestive - Trickster (this is clearly the trickster, even the names match), Mobilizing - Demon, Ignoring - Antihero, Demonstrative - Critical Parent.

Explain this. Now. No personal relation. Explain it with properties and similarities.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

[MENTION=20531]yeghor[/MENTION], if this is the case:

Function 3 – role function, is a weak but conscious function. One generally tries to be at least adequate in areas where use of the role function is necessary. Moreover, one generally uses it in situations of social adaptation (e.g. introducing themselves to an unknown person). However, generally one has very little control or confidence over the role function, and criticism is painfully acknowledged with respect to it. Tactful assistance is required from someone else's strong function to overcome the problems associated with the role function. According to Bukalov, this function is 2D (Ex, No), or situation invariant, because it cannot adapt to the unusual situation beyond social norms.

Ti

Why do you value Ti so much, as it is clearly obvious that you prefer Ti over Te. You are suspicious of any kind of facts or external structures that don't make sense according to your own worldview of personal relation. There is no way you aren't Ti Mobilizing. It's painfully obvious. You don't accept being adequate with Ti, I've seen you, you need to be confident with it, that's why you designed those Pet Theories, based on How you Feel the systems should be working (Fe) and how you can achieve that under the guise of rationalism (Fe/Ti axis).

Function 6 – mobilizing function. This is a weak and unconscious function which one often understands poorly. Nonetheless, this function has a strong influence over one's actions. Individuals requires assistance from someone who uses it confidently in order to understand it. Often an individual is only aware that they are totally unaware of how to use this function. At the same time, it's 2D function, so it's capable of collecting a number of easy receipts for daily needs. Being successful in aspects of this function makes one happy and motivated. (That's why it's called mobilizing.) - Si

Except the function description didn't tell you that the Mobilizing function both inflates and is surrounded by an air of confidence (remember the spread-your-wings thing from early?) You will think that you are actually really good at this function but actually be rather bad at it, you are unaware of how well you use this function and are prone to believing that you can use this function better than you actually can. It's called Mobilizing because it inflates readily to meet information received, it's essentially what you try really hard to be good at, but really aren't. (This is definitely Ti for you)

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

Didn't notice before, but your own typing of yourself in Model A is impossible.

NiFe
TiSe
TeSi
NeFi

Because Model A is actually organized by the Jungian function names, and must therefore follow certain rules. This is why the entire side of your claim is now destroyed.

You cannot be Ni Lead and Ti Role in Socionics, there is no type for that. (Go look it up, trust me, there isn't)
You cannot be Fe Creative and Se Vulnerable in Socionics, there is no type for that.
You cannot be Te Suggestive and Ne Ignoring in Socionics, there is no type for that.
You cannot be Si Mobilizing and Fi Demonstrative in Socionics, there is no type for that.

Here is Model A for an Extroverted Judging type in the very system.

JePi
JePi
JiPe
JiPe

Here is Model A for an Introverted Judging type in the very system.

JiPe
JiPe
JePi
JePi

Here is Model A for an Extroverted Perception type in the very system.

PeJi
PeJi
PiJe
PiJe

Here is Model A for an Introverted Perception type in the very system.

PiJe
PiJe
PeJi
PeJi

Not only does this prove you have absolutely no clue what you are doing, it also proves that your Beebe Model associations are wrong based on the foundation of the entire system of Socionics.

Let's take the INFp (NiFe)

NiFe
SiTe
SeTi
NeFi

This is the exact Model A for an INFp, this is defined by the creators of the entire system of Socionics.

Beebe's Model fits specific functions into its framework and operates under the Jungian System.

Ergo, an INFJ is

Hero Ni
Parent Fe
Child Ti
Anima Se
Antihero Ne
Senex Fi
Trickster Te
Demon Si.

Assuming that the functions in Socionics are equal to that of what was meant to be the base functions of the Jungian Anarchic System, then in Socionics, each function should have a counter-perspective on top of it, as the Role function in Socionics completely cuts you off from the Lead function, signifying that the same temperament function is in use (Pi, for instance, Ni being cut off by Si Role), then the two systems meld perfectly together. The only problem is that you have to rearrange the bottom 3 rows into their places in Socionics.

Ni-Fe
Si-Te
Se-Ti
Ne-Fi

So, the system must produce:

Hero-Parent
Demon-Trickster
Anima-Child
Antihero-Senex

Or else it is not correct, as the Functions 1 and 3 must be of the same function perspective (Ji, Je, Pi, or Pe), Functions 2 and 4, Functions 5 and 7, and Functions 6 and 8; otherwise, Model A can't work, and neither can the Beebe Model.

In Beebe's Model, if you have a Perception type like the ENTP, then Hero and Demon must be the same perspective, Parent and Trickster must be the same perspective, Child and Senex must be the same perspective, and Anima and Antihero must be the same perspective.

ENTP in Beebe's Model is specifically laid out to be: Hero Ne, Parent Ti, Child Fe, Inferior Si, Antihero Ni, Senex Te, Trickster Fi, and Demon Se.

Therefore, your claim violates both systems.

 

[yeghor]

[MENTION=20531]yeghor[/MENTION] What the absolute fuck is telling you that the Vulnerable function is the Inferior function? Is it literally the name? Because that is the only thing in common with it.

Why would the inferior, something which is only negative in the smaller sense and positive in the larger view of the self, be branded as something that is the anathema of the type? Why does type theory tell you to get into touch with your less conscious functions, then, if it correlated with a function that is meant to never be understood, trusted, or revered?

The anima or "soul" is shadowed by a "demon" which interprets situations through the opposite orientation of the inferior. (This is basically a "negative anima", and it appears a "double negative" principle leads to it being the same gender as the person). Since that was already the most suppressed area, then its shadow manifests in a particularly destructive fashion. It can also become an "angel" or "transformer" in bad situations.

Anima/Animus: Jung uses this term to refer variously to the Soul-Image and also to the part of the personality that is “complementary to the character of the persona,” and that “contains all those fallible human qualities [the] persona lacks.” He says we project these qualities in a love-hate relationship onto the opposite sex, the Anima for men, Animus for women. Marie-Louise von Franz elaborates on the typological meaning as follows: “Our conscious realm is like a room with four doors, and it is the fourth door by which the Shadow, the Animus and Anima, and the personification of the Self come in.” For this reason, the inferior function is said to carry the archetypal energy of the Anima or Animus.

These say that anima = inferior and demon = shadow of inferior. In the example you gave about ILI and SLI below, it's talking about how MBTI INTPs and ISTPs are irritated by Fe because that's their inferior function in MBTI. And that's a function position that each type uses consciously.

That passage is not talking about MBTI INTJs and ISTJs, it's talking about INTPs and ISTPs. I've been around ISTPs and seen this action. Anyway, so, becuase inferior in MBTI being in the conscious position and inferior position, in that sense, inferior in socionics cannot be one of the socionics that's unconsciously used. It cannot be the suggestive function which the description says is unconsciously used.

A type with PoLR Fe (ILI and SLI) does not see the point of activities revolving around excessive displays of emotion or behavior that does not reach a concrete or tangible outcome. They would rather keep conversations serious and to the point, for he/she is overwhelmed by such emotional expression, making it quite difficult to express themselves. In social interactions they will make a serious effort to reduce their level of emotive expressiveness such as being too joyful or sad, believing that showing these signs will make them vulnerable to be influenced by others. They don't hold quite a high standard for how people as a group feel about something (even if outnumbered by many when making a personal decision), and instead value situations where they can speak their own subjective opinions and feelings freely. (Does this sound like Fucking Fe inferior and valued?)

Don't you see this is talking about susceptibility to yet inability to handle Fe, which corresponds with being inferior in Fe, which corresponds to IxTP types in MBTI? They hate Fe in the same sex yet if the model holds they must crave it in the opposite (desired) sex. IxTP men should be susceptible to ExFJ women.

So inferior = vulnerable function. Demon = reverse of vulnerable function, which is the mobilizing function.

For SLI:

Vulnerable = Fe = inferior = anima
Demon = reverse anima = Fi = 6th function of SLI = Mobilizing function.

A type with PoLR (SEI and IEI) tends to reject facts given from a source which they are personally unfamiliar with, firmly believing they can make their own decisions that are solely based on their own perspective and reasoning about it. They will tend to become defensive when questioned about their rationale or efficiency, pointing out that there is no such thing as objective "fact". Also, these types experience a significant level of stress in tending to day-to-day must do's and responsibilities in life (like routine maintenance or working productively), manifesting itself as a general laziness or hyper-diligence. (Oh, look, it's you. This doesn't sound like a valued inferior either, I'm afraid)

This is talking about IxFps being irritated by Te isn't it? Which means SEI and IEI are actually MBTI IxFPs. Yeah it sounds like talking about me yet, I know what objective fact is and isn't and will give weight to it.

All this problem is stemming from the misconception that socionics types and MBTI types need to switch (for introverts?) j and p for conversion.,

j-p conversion is not necessary.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

Vulnerable = Fe = inferior = anima
Demon = reverse anima = Fi = 6th function of SLI = Mobilizing function.

You've made an error.

The Demon must be the same perspective as the Hero.

Ji is not Pi. (You claim Ji Demon = Fi for SLI, when SLI's Hero is Si, Demon must be Ni)

Your model is flawed.

The only way this can happen is through Lead and Role in Socionics, as they are of the same perspective.

See my post above this one to realize your egregious errors.

 

[yeghor]

[MENTION=20531]yeghor[/MENTION], if this is the case:

Why do you value Ti so much, as it is clearly obvious that you prefer Ti over Te. You are suspicious of any kind of facts or external structures that don't make sense according to your own worldview of personal relation. There is no way you aren't Ti Mobilizing. It's painfully obvious. You don't accept being adequate with Ti, I've seen you, you need to be confident with it, that's why you designed those Pet Theories, based on How you Feel the systems should be working (Fe) and how you can achieve that under the guise of rationalism (Fe/Ti axis).

I think I value it cause it helps me make sense of my perceptions coming from the dominant function and provides a rationale for them, thereby allowing me soothe my fears that I am perceiving things that are not there. It helps me form Ni deductions into tangible forms.

Except the function description didn't tell you that the Mobilizing function both inflates and is surrounded by an air of confidence (remember the spread-your-wings thing from early?) You will think that you are actually really good at this function but actually be rather bad at it, you are unaware of how well you use this function and are prone to believing that you can use this function better than you actually can. It's called Mobilizing because it inflates readily to meet information received, it's essentially what you try really hard to be good at, but really aren't. (This is definitely Ti for you)

Yeah I flaunt Ti. That description might fit Ti. I am aware that I am bad at Si.

I've already used the descriptions under vulnerable function to show inferior function and it's relation to anima and how demon relates to anima and how that corresponds to mobilizing function in socioics.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

I've already used the descriptions under vulnerable function to show inferior function and it's relation to anima and how demon relates to anima and how that corresponds to mobilizing function in socioics.

It's a shame it violates both systems.

 

[yeghor]

You've made an error.

The Demon must be the same perspective as the Hero.

Ji is not Pi. (You claim Ji Demon = Fi for SLI, when SLI's Hero is Si, Demon must be Ni)

Your model is flawed.

The only way this can happen is through Lead and Role in Socionics, as they are of the same perspective.

See my post above this one to realize your egregious errors.

Actually SLI's hero should be Ti which would fit with Fi, if what you mean by having the same perspective as lead is that they should be of the same type and direction. It's the socionics system that is garbled.

INFJs lead is Ni and it's demon is Si. In socionics though somehow, INFjs' lead becomes Fi.

I am giving up with socionics. Here's what I understand in MBTI for INFJ:

Hero : Ni
Good parent : Fe
Child : Ti
Anima : Se

Antihero : Ne
Critical parent : Fi
Trickster : Te
Demon : Si

For INTP

Hero : Ti
Good parent : Ne
Child : Si
Anima : Fe

Antihero : Te
Critical parent : Ni
Trickster : Se
Demon : Fi

This makes sense so far. In this model, internal feelings are what torments INTP and has a potential to destroy the individual. Also INTP is irritated by displays of Fe yet craves it in the opposite sex.

INTJ OTOH would have a Si demon, which would mean INTJs would be haunted by past failures causing them to destroy their ego. THey also would be Se inferior which would mean they would be clumsy in body language and would not be able to handle high doses of Se yet crave it in the opposite sex.

If that's what you are irritated with yet crave in opposite sex, you are an INTJ, if not, look for another type. You said not being aware of how you come across to others. That's not inferior Si of INTJ. THat's inferior Fe of IxTP.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

Actually SLI's hero should be Ti which would fit with Fi, if what you mean by having the same perspective as lead is that they should be of the same type and direction. It's the socionics system that is garbled.

INFJs lead is Ni and it's demon is Si. In socionics though somehow, INFjs' lead becomes Fi.

I am giving up with socionics. Here's what I understand in MBTI for INFJ:

Hero : Ni
Good parent : Fe
Child : Ti
Anima : Se

Antihero : Ne
Critical parent : Fi
Trickster : Te
Demon : Si

For INTP

Hero : Ti
Good parent : Ne
Child : Si
Anima : Fe

Antihero : Te
Critical parent : Ni
Trickster : Se
Demon : Fi

This makes sense so far. In this model, internal feelings are what torments INTP and has a potential to destroy the individual. Also INTP is irritated by displays of Fe yet craves it in the opposite sex.

INTJ OTOH would have a Si demon, which would mean INTJs would be haunted by past failures causing them to destroy their ego. THey also would be Se inferior which would mean they would be clumsy in body language and would not be able to handle high doses of Se yet crave it in the opposite sex.

If that's what you are irritated with yet crave in opposite sex, you are an INTJ, if not, look for another type. You said not being aware of how you come across to others. That's not inferior Si of INTJ. THat's inferior Fe of IxTP.

Actually SLI in Socionics is

SiTe
NiFe
NeFi
SeTi

So you just went from acclaiming the Hero function as the Lead function to acclaiming the Hero function as the Demonstrative, thus making the type's most valued and trusted function one that is unconscious and unvalued. Contradiction.

 

[yeghor]

Actually SLI in Socionics is

SiTe
NiFe
NeFi
SeTi

So you just went from acclaiming the Hero function as the Lead function to acclaiming the Hero function as the Demonstrative, thus making the type's most valued and trusted function one that is unconscious and unvalued. Contradiction.

your correlations for arcehtypes for instance makes SLI ISTp fit with MBTI ISTJ. Yet, function descriptions under ISTp is defining MBTI ISTP rather than ISTJ.

Does what I put forward as INFJ archetype functions fit with your mapping of archetypes for IEI INFp?

The thing is though they may seem to fit funcriın order-wise, they don't fit description-wise.

So we have two packaged products and the labels on each package talk about the same product and list the same ingredients yet, when we open both packages and ask others describe how they see/sense the product, they start describing two different products. So one of the prıducts is ckearly mispacked and mislabeled.

I believe it's the socionics one. I am trying to understand why.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

your correlations for arcehtypes for instance makes SLI ISTp fit with MBTI ISTJ. Yet, function descriptions under ISTp is defining MBTI ISTP rather than ISTJ.

Does what I put forward as INFJ archetype functions fit with your mapping of archetypes for IEI INFp?

The thing is though they may seem to fit funcriın order-wise, they don't fit description-wise.

So we have two packaged products and the labels on each package talk about the same product and list the same ingredients yet, when we open both packages and ask others describe how they see/sense the product, they start describing two different products. So one of the prıducts is ckearly mispacked and mislabeled.

I believe it's the socionics one. I am trying to understand why.

The function descriptions do not define the MBTI ISTP, they define the Socionics ISTp, as it is a description of the Socionics ISTp.

Yes, the INFJ archetype functions fit the mapping of archetypes for the IEI INFp.

One is BIC Pen, the other is a Papermate Pen. They look different on the outside, but are used for the same purpose, do the same things, and have similar properties.

 

[yeghor]

The function descriptions do not define the MBTI ISTP, they define the Socionics ISTp, as it is a description of the Socionics ISTp.

Yes, the INFJ archetype functions fit the mapping of archetypes for the IEI INFp.

One is BIC Pen, the other is a Papermate Pen. They look different on the outside, but are used for the same purpose, do the same things, and have similar properties.

OK here's the function descriptions on Socionics Information Elements site. I've bolded and underlined parts that I think doesn't fit with the MBTI version of the respective function:

Information Elements

The information elements (also IM elements, elements of information metabolism, or, confusingly, "functions") are eight mental categories that play a key role in interpersonal interaction. They are denoted using the same symbols and names as the information aspects. The difference between them is that information elements are subjective properties of the psyche, whereas information aspects are objective properties of reality independent from psyche.

The 8 Information Elements:

Introverted Logic (Ti)
Extroverted Intuition (Ne)
Introverted Ethics (Fi)
Extroverted Sensing (Se)
Extroverted Ethics (Fe)
Introverted Sensing (Si)
Extroverted Logic (Te)
Introverted Intuition (Ni)

Themes

Ti: analysis, hierarchy, classification, understanding, order, system, structure, formal logic

Ne: potential/possibility, the unique and unusual, ability, essence, perception of the whole, uncertainty, the unknown, search, internal makeup, suddenness, chance, being, permanence, impermanence

Fi: like/dislike, decency and niceness, morals, good/bad, etiquette, humanism, attraction/repulsion, empathy, compassion, attitude towards other human beings, how others are treated, think about other's humanity "let's hear his side," judgements determined by people doing things

Se: authority, influence, desire, political interest/personal investment, competition/struggle, willpower, impact, force, appearance, readiness, tactics, territory

Fe: emotions and emotional expression, passion, mood, excitation, exuberance, romanticism, imitation, acting, not a moral arbiter of good/evil, how they are treated as opposed to how others are treated, sympathy, at certain instances disregards other people's humanity in certain situations, judgements are determined by the situation - at things being done

Si: harmony, pleasure, health, comfort, pleasantness, satisfaction, convenience, quality, cosiness, aesthetics

Te: benefit, efficiency, action, knowledge, method, mechanism, act, work, motion, reason, technology, fact, expediency, economy, asks "why" to get information, facts, analysis collected data to make logical conclusions, law, legal right, generally accepted knowledge and rules/laws is more the realm of Te

Ni: development over time (processes), cause and effect, history, planning, forecasting, past/future, rhythm, speed, urgency, fantasy

States of Mind

Ti: clarity and exactitude of thought, a sense of order and regularity in different levels of structure; a sense of building a complete system from simple and well-understood parts.

Ne: a state of trying to see novel connections between or combinations of previously disparate things; a continual searching for change and newness, including things unexpected and random

Fi: endearment, closeness, moral satisfaction, and emotional sensitivity; deep personal conviction that may produce moral firmness and resolve; love, hatred, or disgust for others.

Se: a mobilized state full of vitality and energy or implied strength; the desire to make strong, bold, and powerful movements

Fe: passions; the desire to express one's feelings and experiences through expressive gestures such as dance or song

Si: a physically relaxed and comfortable state free of irritants; enjoying the pleasure of the moment

Te: an active, but steady and purposeful state conducive to performing goal-oriented activitie

Ni: a dreamy, mysterious, wistful, melancholic, or reflective state of inner discovery and searching; reflecting upon the future or the past

OK for starters, I strongly feel that Fi and Fe in socionics are clearly mislabeled when compared to their MBTI counterparts.

Edit: I also have suspicions around Ni and Ne.

 

[yeghor]

[MENTION=20385]Alea_iacta_est[/MENTION]

Check these two descriptions of ISTp and INFj, I don't know if they are from credible sources however, when I read them, I can clearly see that they are describing MBTI ISTP and INFJ. I don't understand why this pattern keeps repeating.

Socionics Description: The Best ISTP Guide Ever Written

Excerpt^:

One problem for the ISTps is that they can be emotionally irritated; and sometimes even be unstable. They might not take teasing or any form of deprecation well. When ISTps feel hurt, or their ethics are judged, they push away and withdraw from others. They can show rude or tactless behavior towards people, sometimes flat out ignoring them. When they either feel harmed or frustrated, their generally placid appearance quickly turns fiery and aggressive. In their aggression, they might hit or throw something to let their energy out. ISTps may also become pushy when they run out of patience.

ISTps might have some odd behavior around friends or family. Too much emotional drama can be strenuous to an ISTp. Their unsociability may arise from people not being trustworthy and polite to them, and it increases when others start to question them about their poor social skills. When an ISTp does feel welcome in a group of people, they might even be talkative and friendly. Only the fear of not being accepted will restrain them. When an ISTp feels like he is out of the loop, or that others are verbally hurting him in some way, he might say some insensitive, blunt, things, often without thinking about it. This is because it is a programmed defense mechanism they have, and cannot control it. Unexpectedly, the ISTp’s mood will shoot up when they realize that the other people around them weren’t either offended or left the ISTp behind. It may look cruel to people around them, but this is how an ISTp lets people get closer to them. After the initial contact, the ISTp will try to keep you as a friend as long as they can, secretly valuing deep relationships with people.

Socionics Description: The Best INFJ Guide Ever Written

Excerpt^:

INFjs have difficulty refusing the needs and demands of others, and usually comply without taking much thought to their own needs. However, they may bottle up those emotions until some breaking point, where an INFj may flee from a pressuring situation leaving others bewildered. They have difficulty breaking unwanted relations, and may comply with the desires of those by which they have no personal interest; over people may not be truly made aware to their feelings in result.

INFjs may often lack awareness of their surroundings, and have a poor concept of time; usually they are not very inclined to participate in sporting or outdoor activities.

As lovers of routine, INFjs love orderly surroundings; they find peace in structured environments, and seek to keep their lives well on track. But, they may have difficulty realizing their dreams and desires.

Oversensitive and self-conscious, they are vulnerable to physical discomforts, small headaches, messy hair, and unclean clothes mostly resulting from the immense pressure they place upon themselves to live a happy life in a nice comfortable atmosphere. However much time they spend to provide these things for themselves and others, they are not always very good at achieving them, but they depend on it for their own survival and well-being.

So, how to find a credible source for socionics type descriptions and type test?

If you can point out both, I wanna give a try to the test and the description of the resulting type.

 

[yeghor]

[MENTION=20385]Alea_iacta_est[/MENTION]

http://personalitycafe.com/socionic...description-best-infj-guide-ever-written.html

This^ description gives the following function descriptions as well. Do they fit socionics function descriptions?

Ne: The second function of the INFj is Ne, by which the essence of ideas arrive and insights into their development arise. With this function, it is possible to collect multiple perspectives, concepts, ideas, and beliefs in order to register into a readily available databank their entirety and the various conscious considerations concerning them as they stand in the abstract theoretical world and in order to derive a global picture of them. However, Ne also maintains an active neutral stance on all of the whole of its inputs, even if the whole of the input of one core belief, concept, or idea, conflicts with any of the other core beliefs, concepts, or ideas it remains non-biased and registers them all as equals. Probably the most powerful aspect of Ne is an ability to see potential in the most obscure forms and to believe in them. Being an extroverted function, Ne cannot derive data from within and must amass information from outside of itself and in the here and now to survive as a function or at all.

The bolded part^ sounds eerily like MBTI Ni function.

Ni: The eigth function of the this type is Ni. Strong and lacking, it remains to the INFj something to be loathed. Though some use may come from this function in the tracking of time, patterns, and simple predictions, this function remains the vehicle by which the old becomes abandoned and the new comes about. For the INFj, Ni truly represents all that inferiority is and the uselessness of false potential, and so long as new beliefs emerge and there remains something to be considered, out with the old and in with the new! Loyalty to a strong qualified belief system will never interest an INFj!

May be MBTI Ne. Will check best INFp description to see how it is described in lead position:

Ni: The first function of the INFp is Ni, by which the essence of ideas arrive and insights into their development arise. With this function, it is possible index from within ones self an active belief system developed and derived through time, experience, knowledge, and the patterns of ones own personal life as entered through what could be considered a living journal. Every day and every hour and every minute of a person’s life is catalogued within this journal for future considerations and also for review of past successes and mistakes in order to make stunning predictions into the development of various concepts. Being an introverted function, Ni has an active ability to self-sustain itself and moves actively between an abstract theoretical world located in the future and past in order to sustain itself as an active function.

My personal understanding of MBTI Ni = cruncher\condenser and MBTI Ne = generator.

MBTI Ni reduces things down to their essence and recognizes patterns, whereas MBTI Ne expands into new ideas and generates possibilities. The bolded part might be MBTI Ne. The description is too ambiguous.

 

[yeghor]

[MENTION=20385]Alea_iacta_est[/MENTION]

Socionics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fi is responsible for understanding the quality, nature, and proper maintenance of personal relations; makes moral judgments; and aspires to humanism and kindness. Fi has a strong understanding of the social hierarchy and how people feel about each other, their attitudes of like or dislike, enthrallment or disgust, repulsion or attraction, enmity or friendship.

This^ is MBTI Fe.

Fe is responsible for the perception of an emotional state in an individual and the bodily and linguistic expression of emotions. Fe is able to influence others' emotional condition and to communicate its own, "infecting" others. Fe is used especially in generating and recognizing excitement and enthusiasm.

This^ is MBTI Fi.

Ne is responsible for understanding the essence (permanent but not obvious traits) of a thing, estimating the potential and latent capabilities for people and things, and visualizing the likely outcome of events. It is responsible for the sense of interest or boredom. Ne will speculate as to why an event occurs, but sees the specific event as static and unalterable.

This^ is MBTI Ni.

Ni is responsible for the estimation of the passage of time, the understanding of a course of processes in time, and forecasting. Ni understand how things may change and evolve over time and throughout history. Ni is acutely aware of events that are occurring outside of the immediate perception of the moment, and sees events as part of a continuous flow. Ni perceives the possible ramifications of future events and notices ties to the past. Ni observes behavioral patterns and can assess a person's character.

This^ is MBTI Ne.

I think this difference in function labeling is the reason why type descriptions and the function order does not match. This is like cold war all over again US giving one label and USSR giving another to the same thing.

 

[yeghor]

White (Introverted) Intuition
shorthand designation: Ni

When this element is in the leading position, the individual possesses innate strategic abilities and is able to choose the most optimal moments for different activities: when to give battle, if necessary, and when to avoid battle, when that would be more appropriate. Interaction in time might be interpreted as the ability to avoid collisions with objects and hence avoid objects' reflection within oneself.

This^ is MBTI Ne.

Black (Extraverted) Intuition
shorthand designation: Ne

Perceives information about objects' potential energy — for example, information about the physical and mental abilities and potential of a person. This perception implies the ability to understand the structure of objects and phenomena and grasp their inner substance. This element determines a person's ability or inability to see the real potential energy of one's surroundings.

When this element is in the leading position, the individual has pronounced cognitive interests. He is constantly studying underlying phenomena, which he is able to communicate to others quite successfully by making complicated things simple [!! not all are able to explain things well]. Likes to explain to others his understanding of things. In favorable conditions becomes a scientist or writer [!! not necessarily true]. Is able to find optimal ways of increasing objects' potential energy. "Energizes" others with his understanding of the potential energy of surrounding objects.

This^ is MBTI Ni. MBTI Ni simplifies things into analogies or the sort as I said earlier.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

The bolded part you indicated in is undoubtedly Fe. Fi users don't express enthusiasm or any strong emotions to others, instead choosing to internally experience them and treasure them.

Fe is responsible for the perception of an emotional state in an individual and the bodily and linguistic expression of emotions. Fe is able to influence others' emotional condition and to communicate its own, "infecting" others. Fe is used especially in generating and recognizing excitement and enthusiasm.

The fact that this sound like Fi indicates your lack of understanding involving both the IM elements and the JCF functions.

Fi is responsible for understanding the quality, nature, and proper maintenance of personal relations; makes moral judgments; and aspires to humanism and kindness. Fi has a strong understanding of the social hierarchy and how people feel about each other, their attitudes of like or dislike, enthrallment or disgust, repulsion or attraction, enmity or friendship.

This quote is more indicative of Fi than Fe, though I can see how you could have chosen Fe, merely on the basis that the word "social hierarchy" is mentioned. The first bolded represents how users have a deeper understanding of relationships and the value in objects. Furthermore this leads to a deeper understanding of not only what you like or dislike but what others might like or dislike (on a deeper yet less broad degree)

Ne is responsible for understanding the essence (permanent but not obvious traits) of a thing, estimating the potential and latent capabilities for people and things, and visualizing the likely outcome of events. It is responsible for the sense of interest or boredom. Ne will speculate as to why an event occurs, but sees the specific event as static and unalterable.

Except for the fact that is the assessment of static possibilities, i.e. being able to see the possible potential of others instead. For the questioning of why an event occurs, :Ne does not produce a probable analysis but weighs all of the possible causes of an event, i.e. brainstorming the myriad of reasons an object got to the way it is (breadth over depth).

Ni is responsible for the estimation of the passage of time, the understanding of a course of processes in time, and forecasting. Ni understand how things may change and evolve over time and throughout history. Ni is acutely aware of events that are occurring outside of the immediate perception of the moment, and sees events as part of a continuous flow. Ni perceives the possible ramifications of future events and notices ties to the past. Ni observes behavioral patterns and can assess a person's character.

The fact that you can actually read this and think Ne is absolutely mind-boggling. Not only does this accurately lay out the dynamic attitude of the function itself and how it bases its assessments on dynamic patterns not in the physical environment but in the conceptual playground, but it also includes the dissociate attitude of the function itself; instead of focusing how something could possibly have gotten this way in the environment and all of the possibilities that could be achieved in the hypothetical environment, this function is able to detach and see the invisible strings that indicate why things are the way they are and where they are going to be.

Ni also does not simplify things into analogies, that is Ne. In fact, that is basic Jungian Ne (this acts like this, metaphors, similes, anything that conveys conceptual constants through dynamic physical circumstances (Ne/Si axis)).

In short, your analysis is based on what you want to see instead of what actually is, that, or, you have no absolute clue of what the actual Jungian functions's properties are and are merely mistaken.


Also, I've said this about 3 times. Sociotype profiles are wrong. Do we use the MBTI INFJ profiles to type people as INFJs here, or do we use the functions?

ISTps might have some odd behavior around friends or family. Too much emotional drama can be strenuous to an ISTp. Their unsociability may arise from people not being trustworthy and polite to them*, and it increases when others start to question them about their poor social skills. When an ISTp does feel welcome in a group of people, they might even be talkative and friendly. Only the fear of not being accepted will restrain them. When an ISTp feels like he is out of the loop, or that others are verbally hurting him in some way, he might say some insensitive, blunt, things, often without thinking about it. This is because it is a programmed defense mechanism they have, and cannot control it. Unexpectedly, the ISTp’s mood will shoot up when they realize that the other people around them weren’t either offended or left the ISTp behind. It may look cruel to people around them, but this is how an ISTp lets people get closer to them. After the initial contact, the ISTp will try to keep you as a friend as long as they can, secretly valuing deep relationships with people.

Oh, look, Fe PoLR.

*That's Fi-valuing>Fe-valuing, unquestionably in both systems.

Also, you can't claim that Fe Vulnerable is Anima, as that would mean claiming that Demonstrative Ti is Hero, meaning that Lead Si is Critical Parent.

EDIT: Also, both systems use the function perspectives Je, Ji, Pe, and Pi, so it would be wrong to assume that a Pe element in one sounds more like a Pi element in the other, as Pe and Pi are both fundamentally different from each other yet possess similar qualities in both systems.

 

[yeghor]

The bolded part you indicated in is undoubtedly Fe. Fi users don't express enthusiasm or any strong emotions to others, instead choosing to internally experience them and treasure them.

No, MBTI Fe is a construct designed to gauge people's attitudes towards the individual and produce appropriate gestures so as to negotiate with people. MBTI Fe is like a protocol. That's why some MBTI Fi users call MBTI Fe as fake. Genuine intense emotions like enthusiasm are products of MBTI Fi as well as authentic bodily expressions of it. MBTI Fe OTOH is the filtered version of Fi and aims for appropriateness in expression of emotion felt so as to observe proper social etiquette and avoid conflict with others. MBTI Fi OTOH is concerned with raw expression of emotions felt without consideration for how others feel about that pure expression of emotion.

So, MBTI Fi = socionics Fe. Just show these descriptions to some Fi users in the forum and ask for their feedback if you doubt my judgment.

This quote is more indicative of Fi than Fe, though I can see how you could have chosen Fe, merely on the basis that the word "social hierarchy" is mentioned. The first bolded represents how users have a deeper understanding of relationships and the value in objects. Furthermore this leads to a deeper understanding of not only what you like or dislike but what others might like or dislike (on a deeper yet less broad degree)

No, it is as I said above. MBTI Fe is concerned about not offending others and catering to their needs whereas MBTI Fi is more concerned about genuine self expression without concern for others' preferences except for a few intimate friends and people. Just ask xxFPs in the forum.

Except for the fact that is the assessment of static possibilities, i.e. being able to see the possible potential of others instead. For the questioning of why an event occurs, :Ne does not produce a probable analysis but weighs all of the possible causes of an event, i.e. brainstorming the myriad of reasons an object got to the way it is (breadth over depth).

No, assesment of static things is MBTI Ni's job. Reducing things down to a single possible conclusion is MBTI Ni's doing. That's why INxJs appear as single minded. MBTI Ni draws out a single conclusion from an available or given set of data at any given time. Again consult with a confirmed INxJ.

The fact that you can actually read this and think Ne is absolutely mind-boggling. Not only does this accurately lay out the dynamic attitude of the function itself and how it bases its assessments on dynamic patterns not in the physical environment but in the conceptual playground, but it also includes the dissociate attitude of the function itself; instead of focusing how something could possibly have gotten this way in the environment and all of the possibilities that could be achieved in the hypothetical environment, this function is able to detach and see the invisible strings that indicate why things are the way they are and where they are going to be.

Being able to guess dynamic turn of events and able to opportunize possibilities is what ENTPs and ENFPs do all the time. That's MBTI Ne's doing. Ask for feedback from ENxPs if you doubt me. That's how ENTPs get their inventor trait. That's how ENFPs seek out ways to entertain themselves.

Ni also does not simplify things into analogies, that is Ne. In fact, that is basic Jungian Ne (this acts like this, metaphors, similes, anything that conveys conceptual constants through dynamic physical circumstances (Ne/Si axis)).

I do it all the time. That's how I can understand things more easily. By condensing a concept into its bare essence and then overlaying it on a readily available framework thru an analogy, thereby ending up with a simpler model that is much easier to view from different angles and manipulate if need be.

In short, your analysis is based on what you want to see instead of what actually is, that, or, you have no absolute clue of what the actual Jungian functions's properties are and are merely mistaken.

Perhaps, just ask others on the forum.

Yes, we use type descriptions to type people. They serve as templates to understand how a type acts. There are good descriptions and bad descriptions. I don't write them off as incorrect completely, just as better or worse.

How can you claim that those type descriptions are wrong so easily and with so much confidence? Doesn't that undermine the credibility of the entire socionics system?

And how can you so easily write off several socionics type descriptions that doesn't fit with the j-p conversion?

I think the system is built on identifying common patterns/types in people and then building a function model to explain those patterns rather than the other way around.

Is the model configuration built on type descriptions/categories or are type descriptions built on the model configuration? Which comes first?

I think the type descriptions has to come first because without first identifying behavioural patterns in people, you cannot form a model to simulate the pattern. So the model is dependent on type descriptions, therefore you cannot write them off.

How did you decide that type descriptions are wrong?

So, identified patterns in people = Te data. Model to explain Te data = Ti data.

 

[Retmeishka]

Bringing this thread back, but with new stuff.

The Vulnerable Function creates feelings of suspicion, loathing, and annoyance when it receives information specific to it, but due to the fact that the Vulnerable Function is a Producing function, it is a way of looking at the world in a critical light.

This happened to me just today. +Fe is my vulnerable function. I was sitting outside eating some food next to the grocery store before I rode my bike home, and some kids were walking across the parking lot talking loudly to each other. For some reason, they annoyed me. One girl loudly expressed emotions: 'STOP IT! Stop looking at me!' because someone was saying something about her clothing. She was expressing annoyance, and her emotional expressions made *me* feel annoyed whether I liked it or not. I didn't want to feel annoyed along with her. I just wanted to sit there peacefully eating my food. I instantly knew that I disliked this girl, even though I had only overheard one or two sentences that she said. It was this loud, whiny voice. I'm not sure why I was noticing this today. The only way I had to describe it was, 'I don't want to feel annoyed along with you. Stop making me feel your feelings. I want to just feel my own feelings by myself.'

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

No, MBTI Fe is a construct designed to gauge people's attitudes towards the individual and produce appropriate gestures so as to negotiate with people. MBTI Fe is like a protocol. That's why some MBTI Fi users call MBTI Fe as fake. Genuine intense emotions like enthusiasm are products of MBTI Fi as well as authentic bodily expressions of it. MBTI Fe OTOH is the filtered version of Fi and aims for appropriateness in expression of emotion felt so as to observe proper social etiquette and avoid conflict with others. MBTI Fi OTOH is concerned with raw expression of emotions felt without consideration for how others feel about that pure expression of emotion.

So, MBTI Fi = socionics Fe. Just show these descriptions to some Fi users in the forum and ask for their feedback if you doubt my judgment.



No, it is as I said above. MBTI Fe is concerned about not offending others and catering to their needs whereas MBTI Fi is more concerned about genuine self expression without concern for others' preferences except for a few intimate friends and people. Just ask xxFPs in the forum.



No, assesment of static things is MBTI Ni's job. Reducing things down to a single possible conclusion is MBTI Ni's doing. That's why INxJs appear as single minded. MBTI Ni draws out a single conclusion from an available or given set of data at any given time. Again consult with a confirmed INxJ.



Being able to guess dynamic turn of events and able to opportunize possibilities is what ENTPs and ENFPs do all the time. That's MBTI Ne's doing. Ask for feedback from ENxPs if you doubt me. That's how ENTPs get their inventor trait. That's how ENFPs seek out ways to entertain themselves.



I do it all the time. That's how I can understand things more easily. By condensing a concept into its bare essence and then overlaying it on a readily available framework thru an analogy, thereby ending up with a simpler model that is much easier to view from different angles and manipulate if need be.



Perhaps, just ask others on the forum.

Yes, we use type descriptions to type people. They serve as templates to understand how a type acts. There are good descriptions and bad descriptions. I don't write them off as incorrect completely, just as better or worse.

How can you claim that those type descriptions are wrong so easily and with so much confidence? Doesn't that undermine the credibility of the entire socionics system?

And how can you so easily write off several socionics type descriptions that doesn't fit with the j-p conversion?

I think the system is built on identifying common patterns/types in people and then building a function model to explain those patterns rather than the other way around.

Is the model configuration built on type descriptions/categories or are type descriptions built on the model configuration? Which comes first?

I think the type descriptions has to come first because without first identifying behavioural patterns in people, you cannot form a model to simulate the pattern. So the model is dependent on type descriptions, therefore you cannot write them off.

How did you decide that type descriptions are wrong?

So, identified patterns in people = Te data. Model to explain Te data = Ti data.

First off, you didn't read the entire line of expression. It is said they expressed enthusiasm physically and expressed emotions to others in an outward way. Extroverted Feeling is pouring feelings and emotions into the environment (usually aimed at achieving a goal of Pi, Si-Fe would be expressing emotions to make others comfortable and in a comfortable emotional atmosphere) while Introverted Feeling is keeping feelings and emotions in the self while exploring them and deeping them.

MBTI Fi as well as authentic bodily expressions of it.

Nope. That's Fe. Fi turns feelings toward physical expression (as in art, music, etc.) and abstract ideas (as is in the concept of love, the concept of despair, or even ideas in general, an attitude towards them). Fe is readily expressing emotions through body language and being highly open about your emotions and your realistic feeling towards stimuli. The difference is rather easy to tell, when winning a valuable award or reward, the Fe user will usually shout with joy and enthusiasm (pouring emotions outward), while the Fi user will usually feel good internally and remain pleasant and calm on the outside (except in cases where there is an Fi-Se mechanism, where perhaps physical expression will be shared, but not really with emotions, such as an angry xNTJ, who will bottle up emotions internally but end up having their internal emotions manifest into a physical compulsion to impose their will on the environment with, for example, punching something, while keeping their anger internalized*).

So, MBTI Fi = socionics Fe. Just show these descriptions to some Fi users in the forum and ask for their feedback if you doubt my judgment.

Please do. I severely doubt your judgement.

No, assesment of static things is MBTI Ni's job. Reducing things down to a single possible conclusion is MBTI Ni's doing. That's why INxJs appear as single minded. MBTI Ni draws out a single conclusion from an available or given set of data at any given time. Again consult with a confirmed INxJ.

Oh, look at that, you took the bait. Dynamic-Static isn't a quality of the Jungian Functions. You don't know what you are talking about.

Do you remember those shitty "Ah-ha" moment descriptions for Ni? Did you ever think that perhaps there was a reason behind them? It's not because they get the general idea of a concept, it is that they get the general idea of what is happening around them or what they are seeing.

In Socionics, we have Static-Dynamic to explain these things.
, is a static function, meaning that it provides the "Ah-ha" moment for static ideas. Like explaining to them how an engine works. You have to wait for it to all click as they look at it from several different angles mentally, and they just immediately understand how an engine works. They see all of the different parts of the engine in their mind, and they see how they each move to create the whole. This is a static construction. They see hypothetical properties of hypothetical things (Ne) and see how it might work in the dynamics of the environment (Si). This is Ne/Si axis

, is a dynamic function, meaning that it provides the "Ah-ha" moment for dynamic situations and ideas. They will see physical properties of things in the immediate present (Se) and interpret it in the larger scale of things that is hypothetically happening around them (Ni). Seeing a dent on the right side of a car, for instance, can be derived to mean that the car was hit turning left, meaning that the fault was probably the driver's judgement abilities of the car's relative speed coming straight and his window to turn left. Furthermore, it can then be derived that if the person is sensible, then he will most likely be much more cautious when turning left on intersections. Ni weaves a perception for that which has a physical manifestation, explaining it, and explaining what that property will lead to. This is why Ni users are said to be able to grasp at patterns that others can't see (and why they are often denoted as natural strategists), because they are immersed in the immaterial, dynamic patterns that can give them an advantage of seeing what comes next. Thus, they are immersed in these patterns Ni, and piece those patterns together by physical details (static constants in the physical environment). This is / axis.

Reducing static concepts and hypothetical immediate possibilities down to a single general idea is the doing of Ne.
Reducing dynamic concepts and hypothetical circumstances down to a single general idea is the doing of Ni.

This is another reason why xNxJ's are described as being patient, as they can intuitively sense the changing of the winds in the patterns. They know what to wait for, and if they are confident enough, they can act on them easily and strike not with force but with finesse. An example of this would probably be two INTJ's plotting the others' demise, such as the story-line between Walter White and Gus Fring in Breaking Bad, as they both are able to realize the other's plans on an incredible level and avoid danger while simultaneously knowing when to strike.

Being able to guess dynamic turn of events and able to opportunize possibilities is what ENTPs and ENFPs do all the time. That's MBTI Ne's doing. Ask for feedback from ENxPs if you doubt me. That's how ENTPs get their inventor trait. That's how ENFPs seek out ways to entertain themselves.

It may look like dynamic turns of events, but unlike the INxJ casting their pattern sail, the ENxP's see the immediate potential of ideas, and instead of casting a sail, bring a boat with oars to paddle not where the patterns take them, but where they think they should go. This is why ENxP's always have a "let's" attitude toward ideas, as any kind of immediate potential to do something excites them. They want to act on anything with potential, and this is why they are entrepreneurs, they can see the relative worth of an idea as a constant, whereas the INxJ's can see the relative worth of an idea in the long run.

How can you claim that those type descriptions are wrong so easily and with so much confidence? Doesn't that undermine the credibility of the entire socionics system?

Because type descriptions are written by people, and people are terrible judges of character, and are apt at being wrong. The "Descriptions" are based on what the writer thinks a sociotype acts like, preferring to make assumptions about a sociotype's lifestyle instead of sticking to the mechanical model, explaining how they work and not how they probably work. For instance, an LSI description says that LSI's should be hard-working diligent individuals because of how works (the need to be doing something). What they don't realize is that is the motivation to do what the sociotype wants to do, so the sociotype might be rather lazy when dealing with tasks they don't want to do in real life, thus leading them to disbelieve they are an LSI because of that very line. Model A is the system, the descriptions are excess bullshit that can be interpreted to mean anything.

And how can you so easily write off several socionics type descriptions that doesn't fit with the j-p conversion?

I didn't write them off because they don't fit with the j-p conversion (which they can be interpreted to actually fit with j-p conversion, because type descriptions are ambiguous in specificity). I wrote them off because type descriptions in general, suck.

Is the model configuration built on type descriptions/categories or are type descriptions built on the model configuration? Which comes first?

Socionics is a construction of Ti, the type descriptions are a product of the Model and interviews with people who supposedly fit the model at the time Socionics was created.

*The silent angry types, when they are angry, they stop speaking, and immediately try to break something to demonstrate their anger in a creative (Se) fashion.