[INTJ] INTJs as idealists

[INTP]

I have noticed quite a while ago that INTJs are deep down pure idealists. Its weird that this side of the type is usually left out(and i have noticed in some INTJs that they dont even realize themselves how big of idealists they are) in all discussion about the type. Instead people focus on the Te side of the type, which is weird because often the idealist side is running harder than the practical side of the personality.

From what it seems to me, its the idealism that makes the type goal oriented, they want to fill some ideal that they have envisioned and even when Te is much used in this regard(to achieve a goal), the idealist side still seems to be the ultimate drive behind all.

So feel free to argue against(just try to make it a good argument ) or discuss INTJs idealist side, which is sadly often left out.

 

[Nicodemus]

Did you miss all the Ni-vision-goal talk?

 

[INTP]

Did you miss all the Ni-vision-goal talk?

vision is different from idealism and yes i did miss that once in a lifetime chance

 

[Amargith]

It's usually referred to as the gooey center

 

[INTP]

It's usually referred to as the gooey center

Maybe some goo is connected to that idealism if you look it from some perspective alien to me, but the idealism isnt all goo.

 

[Nicodemus]

vision is different from idealism

O Sherlock... One breeds the other. How things should be is determined by values.

 

[WhoCares]

Yes INTJ is idealistic to a fault. Its just what is.

 

[Kullervo]

I have noticed quite a while ago that INTJs are deep down pure idealists. Its weird that this side of the type is usually left out(and i have noticed in some INTJs that they dont even realize themselves how big of idealists they are) in all discussion about the type. Instead people focus on the Te side of the type, which is weird because often the idealist side is running harder than the practical side of the personality.

From what it seems to me, its the idealism that makes the type goal oriented, they want to fill some ideal that they have envisioned and even when Te is much used in this regard(to achieve a goal), the idealist side still seems to be the ultimate drive behind all.

So feel free to argue against(just try to make it a good argument ) or discuss INTJs idealist side, which is sadly often left out.

This is a great thread topic and observation. I don't think INTJ personality profiles on the net really do this side of our personality justice; we are often made out to be very "mechanical". I have only come across a few INTJs like that, and they tend to be 5w6 INTJs.

I dislike the word "idealist" though. While I have very distinct visions and ideas about how the world should be, they are really mental theoretical models, just naturally created from information - stuff I've read and my own observations of reality. That is how Ni works with a Thinking function. INFJs by contrast try and make sense of the world with their emotions, and this is the reason the conclusions they tend to come are usually quite different. It is true that if I didn't have strong views about things, there wouldn't really be that much driving me, but what I would emphasize is how those views are arrived at.

 

[Elocute]

I'd say it'd be hard to find a true INTJ who isn't an idealist to some form. The second a long-term, long-ranging goal is envisioned, many of them will undertake a lot of work to realize a prospect. Te is an odd function for a perciever; I've had people (who I believe to be ISTJ) tell me to think only about today. I can do this to an extent, but if I see no long-term purpose when such is desired, my motivation dwindles rapidly.

When I have a goal in mind, I can forget time, and in worst cases, food--solely because the realization of something is crucial. I'd say INTJs are fundamentally idealists. The down-side to this, im my experience, is that the real world doesn't function as smoothly as Ni may envision. I've had times where I thought something would play as I had forseen only to totally change to my chagrin. It's not uncommon to find an INTJ in a lazy haze after a goal has been blocked or severely stymied until another--this time more of a marriage with absolute reality via Te/Se--is put into motion.

 

[Coriolis]

I have noticed quite a while ago that INTJs are deep down pure idealists. Its weird that this side of the type is usually left out(and i have noticed in some INTJs that they dont even realize themselves how big of idealists they are) in all discussion about the type. Instead people focus on the Te side of the type, which is weird because often the idealist side is running harder than the practical side of the personality.

From what it seems to me, its the idealism that makes the type goal oriented, they want to fill some ideal that they have envisioned and even when Te is much used in this regard(to achieve a goal), the idealist side still seems to be the ultimate drive behind all.

I agree, but like [MENTION=10757]Nicodemus[/MENTION], find the ideal strongly tied to our vision. Even you post speaks of an ideal envisioned.

It's usually referred to as the gooey center

That is a mythical place, equated in fantasy realms more properly with Fi.

 

[INTP]

Yes INTJ is idealistic to a fault. Its just what is.

I dont think its a fault or negative thing. However it might manifest negatively if the person doesent see it in him/herself and makes up rationalizations for the ideals and then thinks he/she is driven by logic/rationality, even tho the real drive is idealism and there is some situation where true motivations must be brought out.

I agree, but like Nicodemus, find the ideal strongly tied to our vision. Even you post speaks of an ideal envisioned.

Yes Ni and Fi are strongly connected in INTJ because the type is introverted and these are INTJs introverted functions. Also idealism comes most strongly from N and F, thats why NF types are being called idealists and INTJs are NiFi inside.

I would argue that while Ni is the function that creates the vision, dreams and hopes of Fi is what creates the drive for the vision.

 

[Amargith]

...the coffee emoticon was there for a reason - to indicate a playful tone.

 

[yeghor]

I dont think its a fault or negative thing. However it might manifest negatively if the person doesent see it in him/herself and makes up rationalizations for the ideals and then thinks he/she is driven by logic/rationality, even tho the real drive is idealism and there is some situation where true motivations must be brought out.




Yes Ni and Fi are strongly connected in INTJ because the type is introverted and these are INTJs introverted functions. Also idealism comes most strongly from N and F, thats why NF types are being called idealists and INTJs are NiFi inside.

I would argue that while Ni is the function that creates the vision, dreams and hopes of Fi is what creates the drive for the vision.

I have noticed quite a while ago that INTJs are deep down pure idealists. Its weird that this side of the type is usually left out(and i have noticed in some INTJs that they dont even realize themselves how big of idealists they are) in all discussion about the type. Instead people focus on the Te side of the type, which is weird because often the idealist side is running harder than the practical side of the personality.

From what it seems to me, its the idealism that makes the type goal oriented, they want to fill some ideal that they have envisioned and even when Te is much used in this regard(to achieve a goal), the idealist side still seems to be the ultimate drive behind all.

So feel free to argue against(just try to make it a good argument ) or discuss INTJs idealist side, which is sadly often left out.

Ni scans the Te strata and envisions an optimized version of it. That's where their idealism comes from.

I think they apply the same mechanism to themselves as well. They try to become the perfect embodiment of the optimized model in their performance an deeds.

 

[Misty_Mountain_Rose]

It's not uncommon to find an INTJ in a lazy haze after a goal has been blocked or severely stymied until another--this time more of a marriage with absolute reality via Te/Se--is put into motion.

I would have phrased it differently...


"It's not uncommon to find an INTJ in a lazy haze after a goal has been accomplished, blocked or severely stymied until another is put into motion."

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I agree. The most common stereotype I have in mind for INTJ (which is usually true) is the cynical idealist who has learned to repress their idealism beneath a cold exterior.

 

[Elocute]

I would have phrased it differently...


"It's not uncommon to find an INTJ in a lazy haze after a goal has been accomplished, blocked or severely stymied until another is put into motion."

Nicely reworded and equally truthful, though I guess it depends on how big the foal was. It could just be part A, but by the time part Z is done, lazy mode I think Socionics captures this in the ILI descriptions. "ILI inertia" or something of the sort.

 

[entropie]

INTJs are one of the biggest idealists there are. Thats due to the sheer fact that most goals brainful idealism is reaching out to, is the best for everyone, so logical.

Some grumpy german INTJs tho still need some time to find that out

 

[Coriolis]

I would argue that while Ni is the function that creates the vision, dreams and hopes of Fi is what creates the drive for the vision.

I see Fi as responsible more for why we want to do something than what we want to do. This is the big, underlying values-based "why", not the why that is answered by showing how doing A is a means to achieving B. Yes, it is a key component of motivation.

...the coffee emoticon was there for a reason - to indicate a playful tone.

I never did understand what that one was supposed to mean. I suppose, part of why I avoid them.

I agree. The most common stereotype I have in mind for INTJ (which is usually true) is the cynical idealist who has learned to repress their idealism beneath a cold exterior.

I often feel this way myself. Supervisors have told me I am too cynical, while my SO and close friends often tell me I am too idealistic. I am constantly working to improve the environment, to bring it closer to my (and others') vision of what it could and should be. In this sense, I think we don't so much repress our idealism as conceal it. It is still there, motivating our choices and actions, but exposing it directly leaves it open to direct attack. The cynicism shows us how we can play the game and be more cagey in how we work toward the ideals.

 

[WhoCares]

I dont think its a fault or negative thing. However it might manifest negatively if the person doesent see it in him/herself and makes up rationalizations for the ideals and then thinks he/she is driven by logic/rationality, even tho the real drive is idealism and there is some situation where true motivations must be brought out.
.

Well I cant do MBTI speak on the subject, all I can do is speak for myself. I dont think I've ever really seen myself as either logical or rational. I've always known I am a dreamer, largely unrealistic in my expectations and chronically wishing the world was different to how it is. In all honesty I was kind of disappointed to type so strongly INTJ because I imagined I would be something like an INFP with my incessant emo ranting and sore spots. But there you go, INTJ sore spots is what I actually have.

I have my ideals god dammit and no amount if reality is going to get in the way of it. I cant let go of my idealism because its what buffers me from the comparative crapness which is how things are. I have no idea at all how to put any if it into action but it matters little to me because my imagination creates a safe haven for rest and respite from that which I willfully do not wish to participate in. Call me unhealthy....go on you know you want to.
[MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION], I guess it goes to show that even emoticons are not universally understood. Like Coriolis I was always confused by that one. I never knew what you meant and to be honest I kind of saw it like condescension.

 

[Amargith]

It was meant to playfully mock fun of the fact that yes, it often gets referred to as the gooey center of an INTJ - a subject that has been discussed many a time around here. I agree, the term 'gooey center' usually only gets used to tease an intj with the fact that they do have feewings. The thing is, there is a core of truth to it - and that core is the Fi idealism here discussed.

Personally, I use the emoticon when I'm trying to tease someone by sounding too casual - it's meant to playfully ruffle some feathers. In this case, I paired it with the irony that the only time INTJ idealism is really discussed, is when they're being teased about it or it gets the 'd'awwww' -reaction from people.

I also rarely do condescension - I prefer to respect people's right to their own opinion and way of being, even if I vehemently disagree with it. I may resort to it in frustration after a heated debate on something that matters to me though but I actually try to monitor myself on that, and rarely mean it if it does slip through.

Edit: The thing might be a Ne thing

For instance:

I think mentioning that your cats ate ur dog is also kind of relevant

Eck's using it the same way I do, to playfully ruffle my feathers coz he knows Im passionate about cats.


Right, bear?