The beta quadra

[Zarathustra]

I don't get bad logic you're right.

Nice "proof"

 

[Jaguar]

That's cuz Jaguar's dad is most likely an LSI and jixmixfix is most likely and SLI duh.

No kidding. Really?

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

[MENTION=20385]Alea_iacta_est[/MENTION] This is a reply to your posts in general to this thread. Look it’s obvious that you’ve read wikisocion’s Model A backwards and forwards so perhaps you have merely omitted it, but you appear to be missing two important points. Firstly comparing Se and Si is a false dichotomy; Pe is external motivation, Pi is internal motivation, secondly duality is the keystone that socionics rests on everything gets drawn back to it. So when looking for a SLIs external motivation we check for Ne not Si. IXXps portrayals are lazy because they are innately incompetent with external motivations and vice versa with EXXps. That is why ENXps are scattered and undisciplined, and ESXps are volatile and short sighted. Which is to say that it is not because every IXXp they met was lazy, but because every IXXp they met they expected to be lazy.

I see what you are saying, but my assertion for Si was that it is, indeed, internal motivation rather than external motivation. My description of it showed how the Si type has a subjective idea of the power of his own self (looking internally at one's own power and limitations of the body/mind (not of one's externalized resources, as I think that might have caused the problem here) rather than externally at resources available (Se) or resources that could be available (Ne). I agree that due to the fact that valued Pe is in the unconscious that ISTps would not readily assert themselves and thus might appear inactive, but this does not necessarily mean that the ISTp will be doomed from the start to be lazy (to not achieve) and have to work past that, due to the fact that the ISTp's second function allows the ISTp to communicate his physical (of the body, such as strength) and mental power that he has seen in himself into efficient, logical systems (Si-Te).

The ISTp, in this case, still possesses the seeming inertia of Ixxp types, but also possesses the self-discipline characteristic of Si along with the Te mindset of applying Si logically and efficiently in the real world, meaning that their overall presence would seem fairly laid back, but when they are mobilized and doing something (SLI, are, after all, of the Judicious fold in the Reinen Dichotomies, and thus their natural state is relaxation),
they are able to achieve easily. It simply depends on the strength of the internal motivation of Si in particular individuals, for SLI are not, as you implied, focused on their resources in the environment and what they can achieve with those resources, but are focused on themselves and what they can achieve in their own physical state and mindset.

 

[jixmixfix]

I see what you are saying, but my assertion for Si was that it is, indeed, internal motivation rather than external motivation. My description of it showed how the Si type has a subjective idea of the power of his own self (looking internally at one's own power and limitations of the body/mind (not of one's externalized resources, as I think that might have caused the problem here) rather than externally at resources available (Se)

Actually what you are describing here is socionics SLI the external resource use of the SLI is Te not Se. This is why socionics SLI is perceived as an operator (Si, Te) then the way MBTI perceives it as an analyzer. Si Harmonizes oneself with the environment while Te looks for external opportunities in resources.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

Actually what you are describing here is socionics SLI the external resource use of the SLI is Te not Se. This is why socionics SLI is perceived as an operator (Si, Te) then the way MBTI perceives it as an analyzer. Si Harmonizes oneself with the environment while Te looks for external opportunities in resources.

I was juxtaposing it against Se's "power-in-the-environment" mantra. If I recall, I actually talked about the SLI's Te in contrast with Se-valuing types, with Te being the dynamic potential of the environment and Se being the static power invested in the environment.

 

[Dr Mobius]

Oh dear this is why I don’t bother with JCF/ socionics cross overs the cognitive dissonance is headache inducing. [MENTION=20385]Alea_iacta_est[/MENTION] Sorry this was my mistake I didn’t release that you were actively trying to integrate JCF and Socionics. The part about duality and Ne was to do with how you were speculating as to why the SLI was sluggish, which is not just some antiquated stereotype, but an important part of duality. The SLI is the opposite perspective of IEE, but the same values; slow to the IEEs fast.I’ll leave you to Tantalus’s Torment.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

Oh dear this is why I don’t bother with JCF/ socionics cross overs the cognitive dissonance is headache inducing. [MENTION=20385]Alea_iacta_est[/MENTION] Sorry this was my mistake I didn’t release that you were actively trying to integrate JCF and Socionics. The part about duality and Ne was to do with how you were speculating as to why the SLI was sluggish, which is not just some antiquated stereotype, but an important part of duality. The SLI is the opposite perspective of IEE, but the same values; slow to the IEEs fast.I’ll leave you to Tantalus’s Torment.

I think it can be done, but it wouldn't be entirely seamless.

As for the SLI duality statement, I would assert that since under Reinen Dichotomies the SLI is a Judicious type, meaning that while some SLI aren't lazy and inactive due to the pressure to achieve based on the internal motivation of Si positively, their natural state would be one of inactivity and relaxation until they mobilize, covering the stereotype as to why they would be lazy but also preserving the idea that some SLI aren't actually lazy and do strive for self-improvement/achievement. It's all a matter of what the ego sees with Si, whether or not they believe they are mentally or physically apt for challenge.

 

[infinite]

Lol beta quadra thread ==> fighting all the time

If you're Beta then what type do you think you are ISTJ? you don't remind me of an ISTJ you could very well still be an MBTI ISTP but a socionics ESTP Ti subtype. Since Ti would be your subtype it would be your strongest function in MBTI.

Beta ST yeah. Ti subtype, hmm how does that make that function strongest in MBTI? Elaborate?

You can check out my type thread if you want more details

(...I responded to this before but it accidentally got moved to off topic. So putting it back here in case you missed it.)

Oh dear this is why I don’t bother with JCF/ socionics cross overs the cognitive dissonance is headache inducing. [MENTION=20385]Alea_iacta_est[/MENTION] Sorry this was my mistake I didn’t release that you were actively trying to integrate JCF and Socionics. The part about duality and Ne was to do with how you were speculating as to why the SLI was sluggish, which is not just some antiquated stereotype, but an important part of duality. The SLI is the opposite perspective of IEE, but the same values; slow to the IEEs fast.I’ll leave you to Tantalus’s Torment.

Hahahah @ the bolded, Tantalus' Torment, I like your way of putting it.

 

[jixmixfix]

Beta ST yeah. Ti subtype, hmm how does that make that function strongest in MBTI? Elaborate?

You can check out my type thread if you want more details

(...I responded to this before but it accidentally got moved to off topic. So putting it back here in case you missed it.)




Hahahah @ the bolded, Tantalus' Torment, I like your way of putting it.

Since socionics views types from the third person perspective and MBTI views it from the inner "motivational" perspective your socionics subtype is much more emphasized in MBTI. Many people fail to identify with their sociotype compared to their mbti type because it's hard to envision ones traits objectively from the third person perspective. Your ego blinds you from stereotyping yourself into a certain "niche" ( I suppose we all think we are too special for this). This is why MBTI has become so much more popular or "mainstream" we all like to believe we are identified by our inner motivations. I believe that your socionics subtype has more to do more with your inner motivations than your actual sociotype. Anyways I wouldn't take my subtype theory too seriously but it's up for a debate. Until someone comes up with a better unified theory a lot of it is still up for debate.

 

[Coriolis]

Get a clue, folks.

Posts are going to the graveyard by the dozen, and the subject of thread bans has been raised in the modbox. We'd rather spend our time coming up with additional forum embellishments and applying tags to threads people haven't viewed since 2009.

Rein it in already.

 

[infinite]

Since socionics views types from the third person perspective and MBTI views it from the inner "motivational" perspective your socionics subtype is much more emphasized in MBTI. Many people fail to identify with their sociotype compared to their mbti type because it's hard to envision ones traits objectively from the third person perspective. Your ego blinds you from stereotyping yourself into a certain "niche" ( I suppose we all think we are too special for this). This is why MBTI has become so much more popular or "mainstream" we all like to believe we are identified by our inner motivations. I believe that your socionics subtype has more to do more with your inner motivations than your actual sociotype. Anyways I wouldn't take my subtype theory too seriously but it's up for a debate. Until someone comes up with a better unified theory a lot of it is still up for debate.

Hmm it's just me then who tries to see socionics stuff as inner processes too? I don't mean the external traits now of course.

Anyway the subtype stuff is interesting but the way I see it myself, sometimes I'm more like one subtype and then sometimes more like the other subtype. So for me subtype doesn't seem to be as static, just differing emphases depending on circumstances.

 

[sulfit]

sulfit, there's an enormous difference between attacking a system you've concluded is flawed...and solely as a consequence of that doubt the intellect of that system's practitioners (<-which literally happens all the time...everyday...to everyone. Ask any tarot card reader or acupuncturist or Christian or vegan or...) and attacking an individual's character. Perhaps it would be best if you were to separate your ego from socionics...so that you are in a position to present its concepts without becoming defensive and emotional about it.

From your response I've gathered that you have completely misunderstood what has happened in previous discussion. I wasn't defending "the system", it's not of my care or concern, but I was defending what I have said against Zarathustra's slanderous attempt to misinterpret and misrepresent my words.

Here is what's happened. I've composed a reply using words alike "infantile", "children" and "immature", which in socionics are used to refer to specific locations along the quadra-progression cycles. These words carry a different meaning in socionics than they do in their conventional everyday use. Socionics "infantile" is not the same thing as being infantile, and maturity-immaturity scale applies to quadra progression, not to describe individuals. So when I, or anyone else uses these words in discussions of socionics we're not using them as personal qualifiers. Anyone who has studied socionics even for a little while is aware that these words aren't used in offensive sense.

Zarathustra has made literal interpretations to make it look like I'm making slanderous statements and depict me as "the bad guy". This is a very typical Fi attack to skew and misinterpret what someone else is saying to attempt to smear their character and discredit their statements. My reaction was to this foul move Zarathustra's part and his attempts to use other people to man his witch hunt against me, exploiting the fact that his friends are little informed in socionics and its terms, which is exceptionally low by any personal standard. As for "the system" it is not of my concern.

Here is a copy of Zarathustra's post showing that him misinterpreting what is simple socionics terminilogy to make it sound like it was personal slander on my part:

That sounds like some Fe-favoring bullshit if I ever heard any.

[MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION]

Ladies, I believe he just called you "immature children" and FJs and TPs "mature adults" when it comes to ethics...

Are you able to answer for me the question I raised yesterday?

Since the flows go in both directions these age relationships between quadra are inverse. Deltas are immature in matters of Fi and mature when it comes to matter of Te. The reverse is true of Alpha - Fe-mature and Ti-immature. The same it true to some extent of Betas and Gammas, but the relationship is analogous to teenager (Se-Ji) - middle-aged adult (Ni-Je) rather than child (Ne-Ji) - grandparent (Si-Je) that is more pertinent to Si/Ne valuing quadra.

Please tell me how Te and Ti are defined. Thank you.

Definitions by the founder of socionics, A. Augusta, are considered to be the official ones for Te and Ti. Here they are:
http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Extraverted_logic
http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Introverted_logic

 

[Avocado]

True.

But I think one can learn a bit about the actual types from both.

As I said before: the truth lies somewhere in between.

Wrt ESFPs/SEEs: consider the effect growing up in the communist Soviet Union vs free market America would have on what characteristics of the type manifest more prominently, and thus what is observed more readily in each environment (it's almost like typological epigenetics).

In the Soviet bloc, you're gunna see their hard-scrapping, cut-throat, try-to-get-by in this corrupt, under-producing society. Kind of a "how does an ESFP look when you throw them into a bleak, rigid environment, with strong social rules, and not much income or economic vibrancy".

Versus throwing them into a free-wheeling capitalistic society that encourages them to work hard and party harder. Where they can earn their paycheck, and then go blow it up their noses, or on whatever myriad sensorial pleasures they can find within their vicinity.

It's still the same core personality, it just must respond a bit differently to each environment.

And the stereotypes, observations, and descriptions (both profile and functional) will follow from those.

I agree. Nature and Nurture.

 

[Avocado]

From your response I've gathered that you have completely misunderstood what has happened in previous discussion. I wasn't defending "the system", it's not of my care or concern, but I was defending what I have said against Zarathustra's slanderous attempt to misinterpret and misrepresent my words.

Here is what's happened. I've composed a reply using words alike "infantile", "children" and "immature", which in socionics are used to refer to specific locations along the quadra-progression cycles. These words carry a different meaning in socionics than they do in their conventional everyday use. Socionics "infantile" is not the same thing as being infantile, and maturity-immaturity scale applies to quadra progression, not to describe individuals. So when I, or anyone else uses these words in discussions of socionics we're not using them as personal qualifiers. Anyone who has studied socionics even for a little while is aware that these words aren't used in offensive sense.

Zarathustra has made literal interpretations to make it look like I'm making slanderous statements and depict me as "the bad guy". This is a very typical Fi attack to skew and misinterpret what someone else is saying to attempt to smear their character and discredit their statements. My reaction was to this foul move Zarathustra's part and his attempts to use other people to man his witch hunt against me, exploiting the fact that his friends are little informed in socionics and its terms, which is exceptionally low by any personal standard. As for "the system" it is not of my concern.

Here is a copy of Zarathustra's post showing that him misinterpreting what is simple socionics terminilogy to make it sound like it was personal slander on my part:





Since the flows go in both directions these age relationships between quadra are inverse. Deltas are immature in matters of Fi and mature when it comes to matter of Te. The reverse is true of Alpha - Fe-mature and Ti-immature. The same it true to some extent of Betas and Gammas, but the relationship is analogous to teenager (Se-Ji) - middle-aged adult (Ni-Je) rather than child (Ne-Ji) - grandparent (Si-Je) that is more pertinent to Si/Ne valuing quadra.


Definitions by the founder of socionics, A. Augusta, are considered to be the official ones for Te and Ti. Here they are:
http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Extraverted_logic
http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Introverted_logic

I will check it out.

 

[draon9]

All betas and deltas are into themselves and have a Messiah complex for NP reason and are nothing but just idealists

 

[LittleV]

^I just have to say that Betas and Deltas are very different -- entirely different preferences for functions. I believe the xNFx's and xSTx's can have more in common, but the quadras are still very different. I have to put in a lot of effort when interacting with Deltas, but I also learn a lot. I wouldn't have done so in the past due to always missing one another's points. Because I'm an Fe subtype, I resonate more with Alphas than Gammas, although we both share one function pair. But either way, Betas and Deltas are actual opposites.

 

[draon9]

Senior and light yagami is Delta and they have messaih or God complex

Esmeralda and Matt Barlow are beta and they have a Savior complexity about them.

 

[LittleV]

I don't know who they are, but who cares? If one were to parse things out, the common denominator wouldn't be Socionics quadras -- that's way too broad. Everyone has faults, but everyone is also misunderstood to various extents.

 

[JocktheMotie]

Off topic, I know, but this is one of my favorite Title+First Post combos on this site.

 

[á´…eparted]

I am so Beta it hurts. Take it or leave it .